Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Christiaan Punter]

Emile was still using his Intona Ultimate (1.5 m) for a reason
so do I.

Also a Shunyata Omega user, no complaints, it delivers the goods...

I also use the Intona Ultimate 1.5m USB cable. Best one so far for my system.

This is the thing, there is no single "Best" USB cable. The success of a USB connection hinges on the implementation of the interface on either end as well as on what's required or desired for a given situation. Like with all accessories and components, system synergy is key, and user preference also plays a part. The best advice that I can give is to try a couple of cables and trust your ears.

The shortlist probably looks something like this, in no particular order:

• Intona Ultimate
• Shunyata Research Omega
• FTA Sinope
• Jorma USB Reference
• Sablon Evo

The list is certainly not complete but it should be a good starting point.

 

[MarcelNL]

I am going to read and have read; the item have got a fanclub for sure, but why not trying to answer my questions/doubts about the hardware inside the machine. Its still standard PC-gear, that does not justify the price. WHAT excatly in the hardware, that the company have developed themself, makes it worth the money?

Customer service is not worth 30.000USD, I expect great CS from something costing 1000USD too. If one would buy the seperate hardware and build it like this on Win10, what makes the Taiko so very special?

What other solutions have you heard it against? All years of R&D = world leader?

I want to believe but my gutfeeling is telling me that it´s a extremly overpriced computer in a nice box.

I will try and get to listen to it.

perhaps a DIY POV can help, I'm building a music server...the amount of money that went into my project at this stage is such that it could easily justify buying an Extreme, especially when considering the amount of hours going into it.

 

[Blackmorec]

Can anyone explain to me what justifies the high price of this solution? I have interest in the product, but cant understand what makes it cost so insanly much. It´s a PC with a nice case and some isolation, what else? Is there even a working and done software? TAS have got some praise but still in beta.

I´m reading up here as well.

Taiko Audio Enhancements to Roon - Audio Gear Talk - Roon Labs Community
Taiko Audio SGM Extreme: WTF? | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Anyone got any measurement on Taiko Audio SGM Extreme to publish ? | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Hi there grandsoir,
I am not an Taiko Extreme user, not because I don’t think it’s a great product, but because I’m having a lot of fun tramping my own path to audio Nirvana, which involves a very different approach, so my reply is not biased by any pride of ownership or loyalty.
But I do pay careful attention to developments at Taiko for the simple reason that there are very few companies doing true R&D into digital audio streaming. As a company Taiko has a fairly simple approach, which is to engineer the very best sound quality they can, without compromise. This involves identifying sonic shortcomings with the current state of the art, doing the research to discover the causes of those shortcomings, doing the development and experimentation to resolve those shortcomings then doing the engineering to build commercial solutions. When you look at a Taiko Extreme, what you see is a ‘fancy‘ computer. What you are actually looking at is an instrument designed from the ground up to produce the finest sonics possible within the realms of current technology. This search for perfection is what drives Taiko. Every component in an Extreme has been carefully evaluated against multiple alternatives in order to discover which produces the finest sonics. When you work at this level of perfection, the first thing you find is that everything truly does matter. Nothing in a Taiko Extreme is there because it reduces cost, is a standard engineering solution or because its cosmetically appealing. A decent engineer could probably reduce the build cost of a Taiko by 50%, likely more, but at the same time they’d also reduce the sound quality by a very significant degree. There are several current owners of Taiko Extremes who formerly belonged to the DIY ‘lunatic fringe’. These are guys who have tremendous depth of knowledge in IT engineering AND hi-fi, who have access to pretty much every commercial product required to build a state of the art server and are far from ‘fund limited‘ but despite several heroic efforts, they all ended up buying an Extreme because they simply could not reproduce the same level of obsessive care, knowledge, dedication and engineering that goes into an Extreme. So what‘s in an Extreme that’s so special? Well actually everything. And what does ‘special‘ mean….well if you listed the parts in an Extreme, the chances are you‘d be unable to obtain the vast majority, being either ’built in house’ or built by third party specialist suppliers. Obviously there are some ’standard’ components but then you are typically talking about the finest components from highly specialized manufacturers .

So in my opinion, compared to other highly respected hi-fi components, is the Taiko Extreme worth its asking price? My background is in science and high tech manufacturing and I would answer, without hesitation definitely. But there’s more. Since people bought their Extreme there have been a string of developments in both hardware and software domains that have continued to refine sound quality, some were free and some productised, so what Taiko customers are listening to today is quite superior to what they actually bought, so the value of their purchase in terms of its most important deliverable, sound quality, has actually Increased.

Finally, you listed a couple of references, Roon Labs and Audio Sciences Forums. I am not a Roon user because their goals (commercial success) and mine (best sound quality) are not congruent. Audio Sciences positions itself as a more scientific, measurements based website. Unfortunately the science is in name alone and nothing I read would pass even rudimentary scrutiny by scientific journals. Of the 3 articles I read, all contained uncontrolled for confounding variables that better explained the conclusions presented. For example, measuring the noise output from a DAC in order to compare its output with and without a network switch. The noise remain unchanged leading them to conclude that the switch had no effect, without controlling to see if the unaltered noise was actually coming from the DAC.

I would conclude by saying that compared to an Extreme, there are several somewhat lower cost alternatives known to provide excellent sound quality and offering various engineering ways of ‘skinning the cat’, but I would judge all to represent similar value for money, relative to each other and to other hi-fi components

 

[Steve Williams]

This is the thing, there is no single "Best" USB cable. The success of a USB connection hinges on the implementation of the interface on either end as well as on what's required or desired for a given situation. Like with all accessories and components, system synergy is key, and user preference also plays a part. The best advice that I can give is to try a couple of cables and trust your ears.

The shortlist probably looks something like this, in no particular order:

• Intona Ultimate
• Shunyata Research Omega
• FTA Sinope
• Jorma USB Reference
• Sablon Evo

The list is certainly not complete but it should be a good starting point.

I must be an outlier as I use a complete Masterbuilt Ultra loom in my system including it’s own MB Ultra USB cable I have posted extensively on this USB cable

 

[Christiaan Punter]

I must be an outlier as I use a complete Masterbuilt Ultra loom in my system including it’s own MB Ultra USB cable I have posted extensively on this USB cable

As I mentioned, the list is not complete It was meant as a starting point for the uninitiated for which I listed the items that I know and like, along with those that I see mentioned frequently.

Maybe this can be a good starting point for Extreme users to mention their current favorites so that an up-to-date list can be made.

 

[Manxman]

Can anyone explain to me what justifies the high price of this solution? I have interest in the product, but cant understand what makes it cost so insanly much. It´s a PC with a nice case and some isolation, what else? Is there even a working and done software? TAS have got some praise but still in beta.

I´m reading up here as well.

Taiko Audio Enhancements to Roon - Audio Gear Talk - Roon Labs Community
Taiko Audio SGM Extreme: WTF? | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Anyone got any measurement on Taiko Audio SGM Extreme to publish ? | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

There are several reasons why the SGM Extreme is so expensive – and by that, I mean reasons over and above the fact that top-quality computer parts are very, very expensive and years of R&D don't come cheaply.

1 The magnificent case, to which pictures simply don't do justice: in the flesh, this is one of the most magnificent pieces of audio equipment I have ever seen. I was salivating at the thought of having something like that on display. However, "audio jewellery" isn't cheap and I suspect the casework accounts for as much as £5000 of the selling price.

2 The supply chain, which must add many, many thousands to the final price. Distributors and retailers both need to take their cut, and in selling directly Taiko cannot undercut its dealers without significantly damaging those relationships. In addition, VAT on a product like this would account for nearly £5000 of the total cost. Some other manufacturers solely sell direct, creating a significant price differential.

3 Manufacturers like Taiko – quite rightly – charge what the market will bear to maximise their profits. They do not operate on a "cost-plus" basis, as very few businesses do.

As to whether the sound quality of the Taiko justifies the investment, nobody can answer that – you need to procure a demo unit and audition it in your home, with your other equipment, your room acoustic and your favourite music.

To my ears, the Taiko added vibrancy and character to everything it played but the Pink Faun 2.16 Ultra offered more precision and refinement; that would be my choice of server if I listened mainly to "audiophile-approved" music (classical, acoustic jazz, etc.). However, I listen mainly to rock and felt that the Lucas Domansky LDMS offered the best of both worlds whilst being considerably cheaper, so that is the server I chose. It's worth noting that the Pink Faun isn't visually the most beautiful piece of equipment, which may help to explain why it hasn't generated the kind of devotion the Taiko has on audio forums.

Of course, system synergy has a lot to do with it and my BeoLab 90s are not the easiest speakers to drive. They were voiced specifically for neutrality, flatness and detail (which is my audio goal), with DSP using off-axis drivers to cancel out room reflections. My own pair has been further tuned in situ by its designer to produce an even flatter frequency response, with the sole reflection point (directly behind my head) being tackled with diffusers.

Your mileage may vary considerably, and I would urge you to audition several options (the Pachanko Constellation Masterpiece might be another potential contender, if you can find one) before reaching a decision.

 

[Steve Williams]

If one would buy the seperate hardware and build it like this on Win10, what makes the Taiko so very special?

Have a go at it. It's been tried countlessly by many DIYers all of whom have either given up or better still given in and bought the Extreme. FWIW I have heard most of the world's TOL servers such as you inquired and again IMHO there's nothing which comes close

Blackmore is a regular in this thread and does not own one but his above assessment is almost certainly what you too will arrive at

 

[Kingsrule]

There are several reasons why the SGM Extreme is so expensive – and by that, I mean reasons over and above the fact that top-quality computer parts are very, very expensive and years of R&D don't come cheaply.

1 The magnificent case, to which pictures simply don't do justice: in the flesh, this is one of the most magnificent pieces of audio equipment I have ever seen. I was salivating at the thought of having something like that on display. However, "audio jewellery" isn't cheap and I suspect the casework accounts for as much as £5000 of the selling price.

2 The supply chain, which must add many, many thousands to the final price. Distributors and retailers both need to take their cut, and in selling directly Taiko cannot undercut its dealers without significantly damaging those relationships. In addition, VAT on a product like this would account for nearly £5000 of the total cost. Some other manufacturers solely sell direct, creating a significant price differential.

3 Manufacturers like Taiko – quite rightly – charge what the market will bear to maximise their profits. They do not operate on a "cost-plus" basis, as very few businesses do.

As to whether the sound quality of the Taiko justifies the investment, nobody can answer that – you need to procure a demo unit and audition it in your home, with your other equipment, your room acoustic and your favourite music.

To my ears, the Taiko added vibrancy and character to everything it played but the Pink Faun 2.16 Ultra offered more precision and refinement; that would be my choice of server if I listened mainly to "audiophile-approved" music (classical, acoustic jazz, etc.). However, I listen mainly to rock and felt that the Lucas Domansky LDMS offered the best of both worlds whilst being considerably cheaper, so that is the server I chose. It's worth noting that the Pink Faun isn't visually the most beautiful piece of equipment, which may help to explain why it hasn't generated the kind of devotion the Taiko has on audio forums.

Of course, system synergy has a lot to do with it and my BeoLab 90s are not the easiest speakers to drive. They were voiced specifically for neutrality, flatness and detail (which is my audio goal), with DSP using off-axis drivers to cancel out room reflections. My own pair has been further tuned in situ by its designer to produce an even flatter frequency response, with the sole reflection point (directly behind my head) being tackled with diffusers.

Your mileage may vary considerably, and I would urge you to audition several options (the Pachanko Constellation Masterpiece might be another potential contender, if you can find one) before reaching a decision.

As to #3 do u know this for fact regarding Taiko?
I'm not so sure this is correct

 

[Manxman]

As to #3 do u know this for fact regarding Taiko?
I'm not so sure this is correct

As a fact? I don't, and am quite willing to be corrected by Emile or Christiaan. However, my first career was as an advertising copywriter, so my background is in marketing, meaning I'm aware that the vast majority of companies set their prices to maximise profitability – quite rightly too, as it's difficult to stay in business otherwise.

 

[dminches]

I see no reason to muck up this thread with theories about Taiko’s business. Please start another thread if you want to discuss it.

 

[Manxman]

I see no reason to muck up this thread with theories about Taiko’s business. Please start another thread if you want to discuss it.

No: it's none of my business how Taiko (or any other company in which I do not have a direct financial interest) choose to operate. I was simply answering @grandsoir's question why the SGM Extreme is the price it is. The truth is that there are almost certainly quite a number of different reasons.

 

[marty]

there are very few companies doing true R&D into digital audio streaming. As a company Taiko has a fairly simple approach, which is to engineer the very best sound quality they can, without compromise. This involves identifying sonic shortcomings with the current state of the art, doing the research to discover the causes of those shortcomings, doing the development and experimentation to resolve those shortcomings then doing the engineering to build commercial solutions.

Since people bought their Extreme there have been a string of developments in both hardware and software domains that have continued to refine sound quality, some were free and some productised, so what Taiko customers are listening to today is quite superior to what they actually bought, so the value of their purchase in terms of its most important deliverable, sound quality, has actually Increased.

As an R&D guy as well as audiophile, these comments are it in a nutshell for me.
In addition "some were free and some productised" (to which we should add, at a very reasonable cost). These are not trivial considerations.
And don't forget their legendary customer service. Who else responds often to service related emails in the middle of the night?

 

[RUIN*ish]

T.A.I.K.O.

Taking arithmetic into kenetic orbit

I'll get my coat

Mn

 

[Taiko Audio]

@Manxman , welcome to the forum, in case you haven’t tried yet, the 14th generation iPhone provides a shocking large step up in Bluetooth streaming quality. Tidal now even outperforms local playback through Kef connect on my Kef LS-60s !

 

[Manxman]

@Manxman , welcome to the forum, in case you haven’t tried yet, the 14th generation iPhone provides a shocking large step up in Bluetooth streaming quality. Tidal now even outperforms local playback through Kef connect on my Kef LS-60s !

I've never tried Bluetooth streaming – all my connections are wired. (Well, almost all of them – the router is a long distance from the music server, so the latter is wired into a wifi extender. I may get round to putting in an Ethernet cable instead at some point.) As for iPhones, I use a fairly humble SE2 as I like a smaller, pocket-sized phone.

 

[Taiko Audio]

I've never tried Bluetooth streaming – all my connections are wired. (Well, almost all of them – the router is a long distance from the music server, so the latter is wired into a wifi extender. I may get round to putting in an Ethernet cable instead at some point.) As for iPhones, I use a fairly humble SE2 as I like a smaller, pocket-sized phone.

If you know somebody with a 14th gen iPhone, you should try it with your Beolabs, it might surprise you…

 

[Manxman]

If you know somebody with a 14th gen iPhone, you should try it with your Beolabs, it might surprise you…

Interesting! I always assumed that wireless streaming would be significantly inferior to a wired connection.

 

[godofwealth]

Still using my 6 year old Apple 10. I’m waiting for Apple to ditch the silly lightning connector and the goofy notch in the display. I have a four year old Xiaomi Android phone that’s light years ahead of Apple: fast USB-C charging, 108 MPixel camera, fast Snapdragon processor. Apple’s tech used to be innovative. Now it’s slow as molasses. It’s amazing how much more advanced smartphones are in Asia (where phones allow multiple carriers for over a decade). In the US, we are all locked into using one carrier. So much for the free market. It’s all a monopoly here.

 

[Tuckia]

I read alot about, or by the DIY folks. Some are dumbfounded when they look at a box of parts and can't understand why something doesn't cost 10% more than the value of the parts. The SQ of a streamer is somewhat the parts, a lot about how you use the parts, and a great deal more about what you do with the OS. If you use a stock OS, it will sound like shit, regardless of the parts. Spend a few years on stripping down the OS, analyzing (actually buying and measuring with scientific instruments) the noise spectra of the components being used and how they interact. Then re-test with different parts to see what the results are. After about 10x10^6 number of permutations, maybe you have something worthwhile. Maybe it helps to know how to do all of this and what to look for too.Then have your accountant figure out where the break even point is.

For what Taiko has done and continues to do, they are well under-priced, IMO.

 

[Steve Williams]

as the saying goes, "often imitated but never duplicated"

I was a skeptic myself 4 1/2 years ago but began reading this thread and listening to the comments of users whom I know and whose opinions I value. This coupled with the absolute disbelief that Emile, Ed , Christiaan et al from the Taiko Team have a presence in this thread on a daily basis. For someone to comment that the customer service isn't worth $30K, I have yet to know any company that has a customer service as great. I was at the time 95% analogue but boy did my paradigm shift after I purchased an Extreme. It opened up a part of music that heretofore I had no interest in playing. As I said previously it will take only a short snippet of the first file you play to quickly understand how very special the Extreme is and how very special a manufacturer can be with excellent service and a devotion to control absolutely the signal from the time it enters the Extreme until it leaves the Extreme. How Emile and his team continue to extract ongoing improvement in SQ is not only amazing but suggests just how serious he is regarding R & D and forever finding ongoing improvement in SQ with absolutely no coloration or other concerns. It isn't analogue but it's spooky close and, as stated , the paradigm keeps shifting in that direction. We may be all drinking the Kool Aid but it's all good.