Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

Atmasphere said:

You're going to have to spend something. But the simple fact is you can get excellent sound inexpensively or you can get it expensively. Its up to you. Sometimes the really expensive stuff really does sound better. It all comes down to the intention of the designer. But if the designer is in it for the money then like any other field of endeavor its likely to be mediocre.

But many designers intend to do the best they can. Some are better at than others so we hear differences. Funny thing though the one that's better at it might not be charging as much because that isn't their intention.

I've listed examples on this thread and have plenty more. I've had time to think about it since I was first asked this question well over 30 years ago. Even then it was really obvious that price had nothing to do with it. Back then cassettes were still around and Pioneer made a few machines that used Dolby S noise reduction. If you gave them a microphone feed from a set of really good mics they could sound amazing. Sony made a Walkman recorder that could do that too. I used a Walkman for an on-location that was done in a museum since they wouldn't allow AC cords to be used. The recording came off great.

Once you understand how important the designer's intention is in the product, its really obvious that price isn't what's important.

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I agree. Your gonna have to spend some money to assemble a high quality stereo. You got a rough number. One of the better stereo I have heard is
Amps $4500
Pre $2500
Speaker $12,000
Subs $4000
Cables $3500
Source and DAC $12,000
Room and power $10,000
Processing $6,700

I know a investment as such done thoughtfully and or with DIY can create a stereo that plays Exceptionally well. Very high end.

High End audio is about the experience.

A couple things come to mind as I remember things I have learned and experienced since 1972. I used to long for the AS and reading every word HP wrote. I loved his writing style. I would get the magazine and just hold the plastic wrap and couldn't wait to "devour " the issue. Wondering when I might get the next one? I relied on every word in the press and reviews. Then I finally learned "hey trust your own ears". Like garlic in a tomato sauce everyone has their own level. I was not there to convince anyone, and I could not really have an opinion if did not hear the piece of equipment etc. Like telling someone a restaurant was not so...if I actually did not eat there. It is complex because unless I heard it in my own system, I really could not know what I thought I knew. I remember 'falling in love with Goldmund" in 1986. I bought so much of it without hearing it because there was nowhere to hear it. Or I would be told in a high-end store "sorry the system is broke". That happened at a famous store on Madison Ave NYC. I bought a pair of Maggie's for my dad from the store as just a walk in transaction, since I had already owned Tympani IVA's. and thought I earned the "right to hear " the system in the big room. I was told nope "kid" the system is down, maybe another time. Yet I had the pleasure of walking into Chris Hansen while visiting LA and he threw me the remote and said to my mom and I enjoy. There was a huge grand piano in the room and the Goldmund Apologues. Wow! Another time I listened to a Goldmund big system at Stuart's Audio in Westfield NJ. Holy Cow. If only I could win the lottery. My point being there have been some great dealers in the day. Also, Simon at AC in Evanston. A true gentleman. My point. It was about the experience. What those short-sighted owners and salespeople did not understand was the seed was planted. And as I grew up and could afford more gear, I would be a fun customer. I have friends that say "Oh I couldn't hear the difference. Really have you tried?" I finally realized don't go there. Let them believe what they want and trust my own ears. It has taken a long time and at 67 yrs old I am absolutely happy with my system. I don't' long to go to shows or read any magazines. I guess I am content, and man is it about time Thanks for all your folks stories and sharing. It is fun to hear the "tribe" share.

Elliot G. said:

I have no interest in building kits not my thing I’d rather play golf. It’s your thing then it’s wonderful that you enjoy it but it isn’t mine or the people I work with and for .

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Each to his own. I like riding my mountain bike in ultra-endurance races like the Tour Divide or Colorado Trail. My other interests in life do not diminish the fact that some kits (DIY) are clearly high end audio.

Atmasphere said:

Each to his own. I like riding my mountain bike in ultra-endurance races like the Tour Divide or Colorado Trail. My other interests in life do not diminish the fact that some kits (DIY) are clearly high end audio.

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Ok, I feel like I’m being Rensselaer here but I gotta say something.

- Each to his own- A dismissive comment when someone is either unwilling or unable to make a meaningful retort.

- I like riding bikes- Ok. Not seeing the connection to the next sentence.

- My other interests in life do not diminish the fact that some kits (DYI) are clearly high end audio- Really? Your interests determines the definition of high end audio? Is it really a fact that some DYI kits are high end audio? If it is a fact, then why have some 280 posts on this forum debated whether or not DYI is a part of high end audio?

Facts are usually backed by evidence. The definition of High End audio has not been clearly established in this forum. I see it as somewhat abstract myself. People here have a number of differing, valid viewpoints.

For example, I had a buddy decades ago, a great engineer who decided to design and build his own speakers. He bought several books on the subject. He built a math model on his computer to optimize the driver/crossover/cabinet design. Then he selected his parts. When he was done he had finished speakers that looked great- fantastic cabinetry work. Top notch. The sound was ok. Mid-fi sound. It was a great first time effort. So would I call them high end speakers because they looked great? No.

Otherwise the DYI stuff I have seen, and what I have done in the past myself, is modifying existing gear.

Someone with a passion for audio and the talent also needs a machine shop, an electronics lab, some serious funding to design, tool up and build their own amp, speaker, DAC, etc. And typically I would expect that the plan would be to use that effort to start a business making that product. Otherwise, unless it is a real passion and money is no object, then finding an existing high end comparable product would be a relative bargain.

PS. Of all the gear that I consider high end, I would consider those responsible for the product to be masters in their field. Most are mature designers/builders that have been in the business a good while.
I can’t imagine a DIY’er stepping up and making a comparable product first time out. Not to say there isn’t a mature DYI’er out there doing it; but keeps it to himself.

I think culture has a lot more to do with the survival of anything than say a store spending time with a 17 year old. I don't think any kids would walk into a stero store if one existed today.

I was talking to a couple 25 year olds last weekend. One the daughter of an audiophile. She likes headphones. Uses them all the time. She feels the need to block out the world, not hide from it in a cave. Speakers are big, take up room and disturb others and can not be used around others. She likes the 2024 Bose noise canceling model.

Even I feel odd ditching my wife to go to the media room. Headphones would be better so we could sit together. She can watch her Dr Heiman and I could watch or listen to what I want.

TonyW said:

Otherwise, unless it is a real passion and money is no object, then finding an existing high end comparable product would be a relative bargain.

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Hello Tony

What if you can't find it? What if what you want is not made? What if money is an issue? What if there was a way to DIY?

Would you walk away or take up the challenge?

People have different mind sets, DIY people accept the challenge and give it their best. Doe's that make it High End?

Tell you what your average DIY guy doesn't care. It's not important.

It's getting it built that matters. It's fulfilling the vision not some arbitrary category defined as High End.

Rob

TonyW said:

Ok, I feel like I’m being Rensselaer here but I gotta say something.

- Each to his own- A dismissive comment when someone is either unwilling or unable to make a meaningful retort.

- I like riding bikes- Ok. Not seeing the connection to the next sentence.

- My other interests in life do not diminish the fact that some kits (DYI) are clearly high end audio- Really? Your interests determines the definition of high end audio? Is it really a fact that some DYI kits are high end audio? If it is a fact, then why have some 280 posts on this forum debated whether or not DYI is a part of high end audio?

Facts are usually backed by evidence. The definition of High End audio has not been clearly established in this forum. I see it as somewhat abstract myself. People here have a number of differing, valid viewpoints.

For example, I had a buddy decades ago, a great engineer who decided to design and build his own speakers. He bought several books on the subject. He built a math model on his computer to optimize the driver/crossover/cabinet design. Then he selected his parts. When he was done he had finished speakers that looked great- fantastic cabinetry work. Top notch. The sound was ok. Mid-fi sound. It was a great first time effort. So would I call them high end speakers because they looked great? No.

Otherwise the DYI stuff I have seen, and what I have done in the past myself, is modifying existing gear.

Someone with a passion for audio and the talent also needs a machine shop, an electronics lab, some serious funding to design, tool up and build their own amp, speaker, DAC, etc. And typically I would expect that the plan would be to use that effort to start a business making that product. Otherwise, unless it is a real passion and money is no object, then finding an existing high end comparable product would be a relative bargain.

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You really missed the point of my post. Try to look at it as if 'to each his own' is not in fact dismissive. Quite the opposite! Then the bike connection will be more clear. I don't play golf but I like my bikes. Capeesh??

If the definition of what is high end isn't clear to you and its important to you, you have to sort out why. From this post is clear you've not done that so don't yet understand high end audio (which is not a dig by any stretch). FWIW a proper working definition will be able to explain everything (cost, diversity and people involved). That definition is not something that only works for some people but not others; its universal or its not correct.

High end audio kits are DIY and anyone that argues that point is simply wrong; all they are really saying is its not for them. Occam's Razor supports this as its a very simple answer! What might be a better point to argue is whether something like a Dynaco tube amp is high end audio. I argue that it is.

When your friend built his speakers, was he disappointed? If yes, did he try again? If he did not, then its not- the speaker was simply made to make sound and be competent but wasn't meant to push the envelope. This is exactly the sort of thing I mean when I say that intention drives high end audio.

When I do DIY stuff, once I sort out what I'm up to I'll design the chassis in software and then have a sheet metal house make it. That's expensive, probably a few hundred dollars, but they will likely do a lot better than I will and likely for less cost.

If you look on audioasylum.com you'll find people making their own stuff from scratch that is clearly intended to be high end. While you may not admit that a high end audio definition has been made on this thread, it clearly has. It does not matter if you don't accept it since that won't change the reality.

PeterA said:

(...) I’ve heard rare and covered items that are certainly high-end given their intent, their build quality, and their performance level. They are just extremely rare and not what I would consider part of the “mainstream” high-end audio industry.

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When debating general concepts we must look at them also from a statistical perspective - we can always find exceptions to rule out other any possible argumentation.

IMO Elliot (and a few others) are clear - they address high end products, some thing that is available to consumers, that want to buy, operate, enjoy and get service on them, and possibly exchange or sell at some point.

Atmasphere said:

You really missed the point of my post. Try to look at it as if 'to each his own' is not in fact dismissive. Quite the opposite! Then the bike connection will be more clear. I don't play golf but I like my bikes. Capeesh??

If the definition of what is high end isn't clear to you and its important to you, you have to sort out why. From this post is clear you've not done that so don't yet understand high end audio (which is not a dig by any stretch). FWIW a proper working definition will be able to explain everything (cost, diversity and people involved). That definition is not something that only works for some people but not others; its universal or its not correct.

High end audio kits are DIY and anyone that argues that point is simply wrong; all they are really saying is its not for them. Occam's Razor supports this as its a very simple answer! What might be a better point to argue is whether something like a Dynaco tube amp is high end audio. I argue that it is.

When your friend built his speakers, was he disappointed? If yes, did he try again? If he did not, then its not- the speaker was simply made to make sound and be competent but wasn't meant to push the envelope. This is exactly the sort of thing I mean when I say that intention drives high end audio.

When I do DIY stuff, once I sort out what I'm up to I'll design the chassis in software and then have a sheet metal house make it. That's expensive, probably a few hundred dollars, but they will likely do a lot better than I will and likely for less cost.

If you look on audioasylum.com you'll find people making their own stuff from scratch that is clearly intended to be high end. While you may not admit that a high end audio definition has been made on this thread, it clearly has. It does not matter if you don't accept it since that won't change the reality.

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If you build something to sell, I have no doubt it will be high end. You have experience and a reputation. I think that DYI’ers can achieve a semblance of a high end product in looks and performance but no one or very few will ever get to see it or experience it.

First rule of Aerospace: The plane can’t fly until the paperwork is complete. I.e. no one knows about a product until it is introduced to the public. Look at the business model of companies today- pass out free samples to YouTube influencers to get the product out into the public domain.

Elvis existed before there was Elvis.

It’s not high end until people say it is.

Even high end companies make a dud now and then.

Atmasphere said:

You really missed the point of my post. Try to look at it as if 'to each his own' is not in fact dismissive. Quite the opposite! Then the bike connection will be more clear. I don't play golf but I like my bikes. Capeesh??

If the definition of what is high end isn't clear to you and its important to you, you have to sort out why. From this post is clear you've not done that so don't yet understand high end audio (which is not a dig by any stretch). FWIW a proper working definition will be able to explain everything (cost, diversity and people involved). That definition is not something that only works for some people but not others; its universal or its not correct.

High end audio kits are DIY and anyone that argues that point is simply wrong; all they are really saying is its not for them. Occam's Razor supports this as its a very simple answer! What might be a better point to argue is whether something like a Dynaco tube amp is high end audio. I argue that it is.

When your friend built his speakers, was he disappointed? If yes, did he try again? If he did not, then its not- the speaker was simply made to make sound and be competent but wasn't meant to push the envelope. This is exactly the sort of thing I mean when I say that intention drives high end audio.

When I do DIY stuff, once I sort out what I'm up to I'll design the chassis in software and then have a sheet metal house make it. That's expensive, probably a few hundred dollars, but they will likely do a lot better than I will and likely for less cost.

If you look on audioasylum.com you'll find people making their own stuff from scratch that is clearly intended to be high end. While you may not admit that a high end audio definition has been made on this thread, it clearly has. It does not matter if you don't accept it since that won't change the reality.

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+1
There are some really clever people in DIY forums who develop circuits and devices. This is high-end, from the initial sketch to the final assembly. For example, the Soekris DAC was a forum project; it's impossible to count how many expensive DACs use it today, for example, Lampizator.

P.S
I would call it swarm intelligence, everyone has a specialty that they are well versed in and the end result is an excellent product.

TonyW said:

First rule of Aerospace: The plane can’t fly until the paperwork is complete. I.e. no one knows about a product until it is introduced to the public. Look at the business model of companies today- pass out free samples to YouTube influencers to get the product out into the public domain.

Elvis existed before there was Elvis.

It’s not high end until people say it is.

Even high end companies make a dud now and then.

Click to expand...

You've misinterpreted the First rule. I.e. its high end when someone has completed the work to make it so. It has nothing to do with an introduction to the public.

OK SAT

Atmasphere said:

You really missed the point of my post. Try to look at it as if 'to each his own' is not in fact dismissive. Quite the opposite! Then the bike connection will be more clear. I don't play golf but I like my bikes. Capeesh??

If the definition of what is high end isn't clear to you and its important to you, you have to sort out why. From this post is clear you've not done that so don't yet understand high end audio (which is not a dig by any stretch). FWIW a proper working definition will be able to explain everything (cost, diversity and people involved). That definition is not something that only works for some people but not others; its universal or its not correct.

High end audio kits are DIY and anyone that argues that point is simply wrong; all they are really saying is its not for them. Occam's Razor supports this as its a very simple answer! What might be a better point to argue is whether something like a Dynaco tube amp is high end audio. I argue that it is.

When your friend built his speakers, was he disappointed? If yes, did he try again? If he did not, then its not- the speaker was simply made to make sound and be competent but wasn't meant to push the envelope. This is exactly the sort of thing I mean when I say that intention drives high end audio.

When I do DIY stuff, once I sort out what I'm up to I'll design the chassis in software and then have a sheet metal house make it. That's expensive, probably a few hundred dollars, but they will likely do a lot better than I will and likely for less cost.

If you look on audioasylum.com you'll find people making their own stuff from scratch that is clearly intended to be high end. While you may not admit that a high end audio definition has been made on this thread, it clearly has. It does not matter if you don't accept it since that won't change the reality.

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First IMO building a kit is not the same as someone designing and building their own product.
Building the kit of something that someone else designed and may or may not have sold as a finished product is to me just like putting together a puzzle of the Mona Lisa. You aren't DaVinci you just put the puzzle together. Sorry but that's how I see it.
If you are designing and building your own stuff that may or may not be high end. It may or may not be junk. I t could be anything however if no one ever sees it or hears it then IMO it can not be anything but what it is, something one guy built for himself as there are no other conclusions I can make.
There is a serious distinction for me between a kit assembler and an do it yourself audio designer. Then there is a much further hoops to jump through to actually design, and build and produce and pack and advertise and sell and support a product. IMO a real high end product is all of those and more.

You've misinterpreted the First rule. I.e. its high end when someone has completed the work to make it so. It has nothing to do with an introduction to the public.


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I disagree. You are looking at it from the viewpoint of a manufacturer. You design and build a product and evaluate it yourself and declare it is a high end component. You feel like you stuffed the product with all kinds of goodness and love and that makes it high end.

What I am saying is: It is not a high end component until the public, or some recognized authorities say it is. We are going to listen to it, experience it and then decide if it fits the category.

TonyW said:

You've misinterpreted the First rule. I.e. its high end when someone has completed the work to make it so. It has nothing to do with an introduction to the public.


—————————————————-
I disagree. You are looking at it from the viewpoint of a manufacturer. You design and build a product and evaluate it yourself and declare it is a high end component. You feel like you stuffed the product with all kinds of goodness and love and that makes it high end.

What I am saying is: It is not a high end component until the public, or some recognized authorities say it is. We are going to listen to it, experience it and then decide if it fits the category.

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correct it is the market that makes the determination not the individual

And I have heard Dynaco ST70 amps driving Quad ESL speakers. Very good but not high end. Definitely not compared to some of today’s high end amps.

Elliot G. said:

OK SAT

First IMO building a kit is not the same as someone designing and building their own product.
Building the kit of something that someone else designed and may or may not have sold as a finished product is to me just like putting together a puzzle of the Mona Lisa. You aren't DaVinci you just put the puzzle together. Sorry but that's how I see it.
If you are designing and building your own stuff that may or may not be high end. It may or may not be junk. I t could be anything however if no one ever sees it or hears it then IMO it can not be anything but what it is, something one guy built for himself as there are no other conclusions I can make.
There is a serious distinction for me between a kit assembler and an do it yourself audio designer. Then there is a much further hoops to jump through to actually design, and build and produce and pack and advertise and sell and support a product. IMO a real high end product is all of those and more.

Click to expand...

I agree, I started with kits and what I ended up with was not really mine, it's just buying an unfinished product so you can either save money, learn as you go, personalize it, some or all of these. I moved on from most kits and now have my own speaker and amp designs but I appreciate and value the kits I have and some I still use. I think most kits are not really high end, they are more like commodity products, but there are some rare exceptions like Pass, Broski and Linkwitz that have shared their designs with the public and offered kits that have real potential.

It took me about a decade to come up with cable designs I'd sell, and started out as a side business. After getting into amps it took me about a decade to get from a kit to my own SET design, and I got a speaker done in record time for me, about 5 years, but that isn't starting from scratch, I had a lot more experience before I started on my speaker.

DIY can achieve high end results but I think it's rare, even with aptitude and consistency it's like anything else, it takes time and effort to become good at anything worthwhile. Audio is relatively simple though, it's something one person can become proficient at while this isn't the case with many other things, for example there aren't that many DIY engine builders who design and make their own blocks, pistons, rods and valvetrains, and even fewer DIY spaceships, the saying "it's not rocket science" applies to audio, but otoh it's not so simple you can expect to just jump right in and DIY gear that competes with gear others have spent decades perfecting.

One big plus for DIY'ers is the availability of computer based measuring tools and other gear like calibrated mics and o-scopes that are now affordable to anyone. Anechoic chambers are still expensive unfortunately...

I’ll never forget the day I brought home my first high end Turntable/tonearm/cartridge. It was a Saturday in September, 1992. It took me months to work up the nerve to spend $4000 ($8500 in today’s money) on a turntable. I bought it from Harry at Audio Dimensions in Royal Oak, MI. Drove home a nervous wreck thinking I had just done one of the most foolish things in my life (up to then).

I hooked up the turntable, put on my first record and all of my anxiety quickly melted away. I was soaring. The sound was even better than what I heard at the store. I heard such amazing sound, details that I had never heard before. I couldn’t wait to play the next record. Forgot about the money in no time.

That’s my first high end experience.

TonyW said:

(...) First rule of Aerospace: The plane can’t fly until the paperwork is complete. I.e. no one knows about a product until it is introduced to the public. (...)

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Well, I never heard about it. Fortunately I only flied kites and model gliders in my youth ... All of the many first (thumb) rules of Aerospace I heard about concerned design and engineering.

One of them is "When weight is a factor, everything is a factor." Curiously it also applies to high end audio, when we replace weight by sound quality!

Here's a rather ironic opinion: