Yes- I get that. FWIW there is no end to it...
I think you are right that this is a topic for another thread. FWIW though attenuators don't make power so can't drive headphones let alone loudspeakers.
Natural Sound
- Thread starter PeterA
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You are speaking for yourself. That comment also presupposes one is still searching. There are a lot of different reasons to continue the search and lots of reasons not too. People make different choices for their own reasons.
Not really in line with your previous considerations then , If you are merely going to post a there there , conciliatory pat on the head for trying, in response to https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/natural-sound.32867/post-982562 … I don’t really so the point in bothering posting :
Natural Sound
The other thing you might want to consider is what happens when you have a PP amp of the same class of operation and output power is the sacred SET. Such tube amps are hard to find! But if you do find one and its built properly you'll find it does not take a back seat to SETs in any way that...
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Hope you don't like Rock or R & B, adopted a couple of bands in my music studio days, it's like having kids. Someone always needs rent money, studio time or bail !
Your DAC has the amp built in, so yes, you have an amp. As to Atmasphere’s post, I understand all of it and disagree with a large part of it!
Manufacturers and dealers know well the marketing reach of WBF. They post on threads to advertise their stuff, talking their book. I just wish such posts were in a technical section of the forum where designers could do their thing and curious readers could go there looking for information.
hummmmmm. i think dismissing/diminishing Ralph's points as commercial is bad form from you considering your considerable representation of a particular manufacturer/dealer. fine to disagree, of course. and i have zero problem with your perspectives. just to me you don't have the higher road. or if you do maybe just a tiny bit. the weight you place in your perspectives invites scrutiny.
I think both of you misunderstand. I'm merely explaining how the technology works, which explains also why SETs don't. Just the facts.Not really in line with your previous considerations then , If you are merely going to post a there there , conciliatory pat on the head for trying, in response to https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/natural-sound.32867/post-982562 … I don’t really so the point in bothering posting :
Natural Sound
The other thing you might want to consider is what happens when you have a PP amp of the same class of operation and output power is the sacred SET. Such tube amps are hard to find! But if you do find one and its built properly you'll find it does not take a back seat to SETs in any way that...
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FWIW, nothing I've explained here is something in particular to our stuff. For example, the comments about Gain Bandwidth Product is engineering theory taught in school (at the college level). Bruno Putzeys writes about the implications of GBP and feedback in this article. You'll find he and I are on the same page.
If dig into it you'll find that everything I put in my posts is educational- for example the stuff from Norman Crowhurst. If you don't know who he is there are some excellent tomes by him on Pete Millett's Technical Books site. If you don't want to read up on this, fine but please don't shoot the messenger.
FWIW, you can't start with a small signal and wind up with one large enough to drive loudspeakers without something called 'amplification'. I read the website of the manufacturer of your amp/DAC system. They clearly did a good job on the tech but the site has a lot of marketing buzz. It may have lead you to believe that there's no amplification going on but if it walks like an amp and quacks like an amp, its an amp. Kind of an Occam's Razor sort of thing.
To drive a speaker requires amplification…with all due respect, I don’t think you understand what it is your product does.
Sorry, it’s Ralph’s backhanded way of dismissing competition as technically incorrect, even though the technology he championed for 40 years (OTL) was similarly dismissed by the mainstream audiophile world. He fails to grasp why so many have gravitated to that “ancient “ technology and that his defense of his own doesn’t hold water when looked at psychoacoustically.
Coming on to Peter’s thread and saying don’t believe your ears about what you find natural…believe my technical explanation, which happens to be flawed.
i'm not judging the merits of Ralph's points, or Peter's (or whoever he speaks for). i'm the last guy in the realm to judge techie stuff. 20 years ago i went head to head with Ralph as i was a champion of the Tenor OTL's and preferred them to the Atma-Sphere's. so i realize Ralph's bias....for many years.
i have owned Lamm SET's and Lamm tubed phono's but no matter. so i have at least some connection. Peter's thread is no safe haven for non commercial perspectives. whichever side of things one is on. it's got a very heavy lean. which is perfectly ok, it just removes that higher road perspective. just my 2 cents.
Yet with a bit of self-righteous higher road hoo-haa you judge nonetheless.
I have morricab on ignore since he brings up the same arguments but can't support them with actual engineering. I've debunked his arguments yet he persists with them; hence 'ignore'.
I think that was more like 25 years ago FWIW
From my perspective this is about engineering facts and nothing else- so yes, I'm biased about that. SETs don't work plain and simple- but many people like the coloration they produce. The greatest amount of pushback I get is from people who sell them which is different from those who design. When you have master tapes and know how the recording is supposed to sound because you were there, its hard to take SETs seriously. But that does not mean I don't like them- I've built a number of them because its fun. They are musical but not accurate; in my book an amp should be both. I don't care to keep repeating myself so I'll stop here.
not quite yet. 2001-2004, then i moved on to darTZeel.I think that was more like 25 years ago FWIW
Here’s my perspective, Mike. I don’t represent anyone or any products. I am not an influencer. I don’t use influencing status to negotiate pricing. I am a hobbyist and I paid full asking price for everything in my system. I do not negotiate price. This is my system, and there is no purpose for this system thread other than for me to share my thoughts on this system.
I’m not diminishing Ralph’s knowledge and expertise. I just do not think it has any place here in my system thread. Ralph is using my system thread as a platform to promote his products over a competitor’s products. Vladimir is not here to join the discussion and possibly disagree with some of Ralph’s claims.
You are right that this is about a higher road. Manufacturers and members of the industry should be held to a higher standard. They should not diminish competitor’s products on hobbyist system threads.
Imagine David Karmeli coming onto your turntable threads and starting to tell you that his turntable is much better than all three of yours and then to explain the technical reasons. And then tell you you couldn’t possibly think your turntables represent the information on the record because the technology and implementation won’t allow it. Then telling you that you can’t use words to express your thoughts about your system in the naming of your thread.
David Karmeli would never do such a thing and you well understand this. Here we have Ralph doing just that. It does not reflect well on him and it is revealing of character. So yes, there is a higher road, this time not taken.
I want to get my TT a little further. I was thinking about Ralphs comments on coupling the platter to the vinyl. I have no weights. Just a heavy delrin platter. I tried a couple cheap mats like felt and Herbies. Neither were anything to write about. Unless I was complaining. Then there are mats that cost as much as my TT.
Nonsense. Such personal insinuations are unbecoming.
It certainly is not. Just read the multitude of posts arguing with my perspective, language, and opinions.
Whose system thread does not have a heavy lean? I have two system threads describing two fairly different systems and ideas about Audio.
The higher road is sharing one’s ideas openly and contributing to the discussion while respecting other members’ approaches and goals.
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