A world first? Passive v active isolation platforms test

[theophile]

No need to apologize Theo, not a big deal
Actually IIRC Barry was using a marble tile as the upper race at some point.
The problem I see with a direct supporting of the component (through racing plates) is that there is no direct control over the damping
of the upper races. And IMHO this is absolutely *critical* with the roller bearings.
Not sure if it proves anything, but not a single time we heard
the typical for suboptimal bearings comment of HF harshness or artificial vividness. Never!
To the opposite actually. People used to artificial and harsh HF in their systems,
first find something lacking with our platform in action.

Cheers,

Jarek,

My impression is that should the underside of the component not be conducive to the ball pressing into it, then the 'tile' or another material could be used. This is the case with my GT 2000. The plinth of the GT 2000 is multi-layered MDF(HDF?). I didn't feel that having the Silicon Nitride ball in direct contact with it was the optimum for free motion of the ball. I went to a local metal fabricator and got them to cut two small panels of 5mm stainless steel which fit nicely into the undersides of the turntable.

My turntable support/isolation platform remains a 'work in progress'. The only guaranteed long term elements, at this stage will be the Clearaudio Magix and the Ingress balls and cups. All else is ultimately due to be replaced by some other element. The polymethylmethacrylate which is directly atop the Magix( sorry I left the 'poly' off before) I will replace with either Carbon Fiber or a sandwich of kevlar honeycomb between two sheets of carbon fiber. I'm still weighing up which way I want to go.

Unlike yourself Jarek. I have zero background in Science. I left school at 16. I tend to the intuitive style of research. Grossly unscientific, but it is my nature and it works for me. I have a respect for science, but it should never be forgotten that a slew of breakthroughs in Science came about via the scientist having a Eureka Moment which set them off on a tangent which was a cross-purposes to the investigation they were previously undertaking. A path that they never before considered. That, and taking notice of other people's ideas is how I operate.

I can say that the pay-off for me has been a transformation of the sound of my system(which is as my signature attests vinyl-based). Two of the longest owned records in my system are the Opus 3 Test Record 1 and Proprius label Cantate Domino. I used to take them with me to dealerships over many years to audition systems. It was incredibly gratifying that after further fine tuning of my isolation support the other night, to hear both of those records reproduced in such a manner as I had never heard them before. The gratification was repeated on other great recordings.

I have been consumed by turntable isolation for the almost decade since purchasing my original 8 Clearaudio Magix. The achievement the other night made it all worthwhile. I have about 3500+ LPs which will all benefit from this. Some to a greater extent than the others, but all will sound better than the previous time I listened to them. I cannot emphasis enough that if one owns a well-sorted system, properly isolating at least the Source component will give an astonishing boost to the musical and sonic enjoyment.

 

[Stacore]

My impression is that should the underside of the component not be conducive to the ball pressing into it, then the 'tile' or another material could be used. This is the case with my GT 2000. The plinth of the GT 2000 is multi-layered MDF(HDF?). I didn't feel that having the Silicon Nitride ball in direct contact with it was the optimum for free motion of the ball. I went to a local metal fabricator and got them to cut two small panels of 5mm stainless steel which fit nicely into the undersides of the turntable.

We pushed it a bit more - deep hardened, mirror polished steel plates, embedded into 35kg of metal/slate CLD. Gives both super sensitivity (free motion) and great damping.
But it is a hard work. A 5-step technological process just to get the steel racing properly made.

Unlike yourself Jarek. I have zero background in Science. I left school at 16. I tend to the intuitive style of research. Grossly unscientific, but it is my nature and it works for me. I have a respect for science, but it should never be forgotten that a slew of breakthroughs in Science came about via the scientist having a Eureka Moment which set them off on a tangent which was a cross-purposes to the investigation they were previously undertaking. A path that they never before considered. That, and taking notice of other people's ideas is how I operate.

Science without intuition is just an intellectual rubbish. I recommend reading Einstein on that. He was THE MASTER of the intuitive approach. David Bohm with his Bohmian dialogue was another prominent example.

Cheers,

 

[LL21]

Attending many classical music concerts, I found the live sound is darker and warmer. People are so used to bright sound of the system, they don’t realize the live sound is darker and warmer in my opinion.

+100 Anthony, or wait, +1000! I applaud you for saying this loud and clear - live sound is darker than our imagination about it based on reproduced music.

I am inclined to agree as well, though of course, this statement is purely relative for each of us. I suppose I can say that a number of phenomenally well setup systems (in terms of decay, resolution, noise floor) still seem to play a couple of my personal reference tracks a bit brighter than i prefer. Personal preference, but I find that when a system gets these test tracks right for me...i tend to prefer the overall balance generally on most other tracks as well. (Two of my personal reference tracks: Clapton Unplugged, opening crowd clapping/whistling of Track 1; Reference Recordings Vivaldi For Diverse Instruments, Track 1)

 

[Stacore]

I am inclined to agree as well, though of course, this statement is purely relative for each of us.

I'd call it objective subjectiveness or maybe intersubjectivity. I find what adyc mentions myself (esp the dark side) and keep hearing same general remark from experienced listeners. It is not so much about a preference ("I like it") but about acomparison to the live sound ("it sounds").

Cheers,

 

[LL21]

I'd call it objective subjectiveness or maybe intersubjectivity. I find what adyc mentions myself (esp the dark side) and keep hearing same general remark from experienced listeners. It is not so much about a preference ("I like it") but about acomparison to the live sound ("it sounds").

Cheers,

Yes, I will go with that. Ultimately, i do find more often than not that systems have been 'dialed in' differently than what I hear (or think I hear) live. And in particular, i do find those same systems to be brighter than what i hear in real life. the highs are certainly present in real life and often quite powerful...but they have a much, much fuller, fulsome sound than systems I often hear. There is a powerful depth in the notes of instruments in the highs...piccolo, triangles, piano, flutes, cymbals...which can be lopped off in system tuning. The attack of the note, and the decay are there...but not the fat middle bit of the high note. I have attempted to ensure as much as possible that our system is tuned so that most albums i play trend towards my own perception of what is proper.

coming back to isolation...i have found that good isolation has helped me go after more detail...but the right isolation has allowed me ALSO to keep or in a few cases truly ENHANCE the 'meat of the note'.

 

[Stacore]

coming back to isolation...i have found that good isolation has helped me go after more detail...but the right isolation has allowed me ALSO to keep or in a few cases truly ENHANCE the 'meat of the note'.

Well, I can only invite you to try us

Cheers,

 

[LL21]

Well, I can only invite you to try us

Cheers,

Have PM'd you.

 

[PeterA]

Attending many classical music concerts, I found the live sound is darker and warmer. People are so used to bright sound of the system, they don’t realize the live sound is darker and warmer in my opinion.

This is my experience too, but I am more aware or conscience of it when I hear a bright system. I rarely ever hear a harsh or glary sound from live instruments, but I often hear it from some systems. I am pretty sensitive to this bright sound and I quickly get fatigued and annoyed. It sounds "detailed" but not natural or anything like real instruments in my experience.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

This is my experience too, but I am more aware or conscience of it when I hear a bright system. I rarely ever hear a harsh or glary sound from live instruments, but I often hear it from some systems. I am pretty sensitive to this bright sound and I quickly get fatigued and annoyed. It sounds "detailed" but not natural or anything like real instruments in my experience.

2000 to 4000 bass traps and absorption panels in the audience, and you sitting among those, tend to darken live classical. that can be a reference for 'live', but not the only one.

a string quartet in a small recital space has a totally different tonal feeling with far fewer people as an influence, like small combo jazz in a small club.

both are real, but different.

 

[rockitman]

2000 to 4000 bass traps and absorption panels in the audience, and you sitting among those, tend to darken live classical. that can be a reference for 'live', but not the only one.

a string quartet in a small recital space has a totally different tonal feeling with far fewer people as an influence, like small combo jazz in a small club.

both are real, but different.

Agreed.

 

[Stacore]

2000 to 4000 bass traps and absorption panels in the audience, and you sitting among those, tend to darken live classical. that can be a reference for 'live', but not the only one.

a string quartet in a small recital space has a totally different tonal feeling with far fewer people as an influence, like small combo jazz in a small club.

both are real, but different.

Excellent point Mike! Much is also in the hands of the recording engineer and his views - shall the audience be acoustically included or rather eliminated as much as possible, etc.

I also listen to lots of jazz in small clubs (jam sessions here couple of times per week plus small concerts, friends with young jazz scene) and this is one of my strong references to live sound too.

Edit: I forgot the conclusion

Taking all those venue/audience variations into account, I still think that reproduced music tends to sound overly bright!

Cheers,

 

[bonzo75]

2000 to 4000 bass traps and absorption panels in the audience, and you sitting among those, tend to darken live classical. that can be a reference for 'live', but not the only one.

a string quartet in a small recital space has a totally different tonal feeling with far fewer people as an influence, like small combo jazz in a small club.

both are real, but different.

Concert halls use people for room treatment. Even in Audio shows if the room fills up with people the sound will change. Smaller concert halls for chamber are warmer than bigger halls. I frequent 4 small halls, and one from the 1800s which is somewhat larger yet not big. All these halls have a rich, warm tone as compared to the bigger halls like barbican and festival hall which also I frequent. The one from 1800s is my reference for SET horn flow and tone. Barbican always sounds to me like SS into Apogees, and it too is warm though not as much.

Royal opera house is the biggest of these and also quite warm, it's valves on stats.

But Mike, your system does all of these sounds depending on what music is played

 

[spiritofmusic]

I don’t attend live anywhere as often as Ked, once a week is our average now, in a variety of different types of venues, from churches, to town halls, lavish old buildings, to purpose built venues, with groups of all sizes, from piano recital, to string quartet, to choral, to full orchestral, and some jazz cafe small group jazz.
No matter what the venue, and whatever the genre being played, I never detect the tipped up, upper mids/treble dominated presentation I hear from so many high end systems.
Live has this darker centre of gravity, with even ostensibly treble heavy instruments like triangle having real body and projection.
Stacore is playing a big part in cementing what I reliably believe is a more authentic live-like sound in my room by enabling my system signature of darker centre of gravity thru lower mids and upper bass to be cemented, eliminating upper frequencies glare, solidifying those mids and upper bass frequencies, and ridding dramatically last vestiges of bass bloat.

 

[theophile]

I always say to people:

Beyond seeing and hearing a great performance, it is good to be familiar with the live sound of instruments, orchestras, halls etc. However, recordings, being a capture of an event are not the event. They are a species unique unto themselves. Their source is the Live Event but they differ, and one must always be mindful of that. There is no reference for a recording other than the recording itself.

What is the true sound of a recording. Well honestly, we may never know. Honestly. Even if one records a voice/ instrument/ location one knows intimately( one's wife singing whilst playing her own instrument in one's own sitting room), the recording is not the Live Event. The recording is a different thing derived from the Live Event. It is a modification of the Live Event. It is no longer one's ears being the microphone and one's brain being the register. The recording is: The mic selection, the mic position, the mic preamp, the recorder. These are just an example of four out of many ways that the necessary intermediary elements are able to modify the Live Event. There are many more: mic cable choice, power line interference, overload levels, recording equipment anomalies. The list goes on and on and on and on.

We haven't even got to the anomalies introduced by the playback venue and equipment yet.

It is good to be familiar with the sound of the Live Event. Never confuse the Live Event with the Recorded Event. They are a different as a cotton bush and a cotton shirt. There are broad correspondences to be sure, but they are each unique unto themselves and the recording can never be that which it was derived from.

 

[theophile]

Have you ever heard one of your neighbours singing or playing an instrument in their garage with all of the doors and windows closed? It is obvious even from 100 meters away that one is hearing the Live Event. Even when what one is actually listening to is the sound of the vibrating roof, closed windows, walls and garage door. Remember the garage is completely closed. Despite that, the imperfect transducers(roof, walls, door etc) are able to inform one without any shadow of a doubt that one is listening to a Live Event. There is no doubt that one is not hearing a recording.

That is the uniqueness of the Live Event. It is unmistakeable. It has a power that we find difficult to reproduce. It is not about volume levels. It is about Timbre and Dynamic Truth. There is no substitute for the Real Deal.

 

[bonzo75]

I don’t attend live anywhere as often as Ked, once a week is our average now, in a variety of different types of venues, from churches, to town halls, lavish old buildings, to purpose built venues, with groups of all sizes, from piano recital, to string quartet, to choral, to full orchestral, and some jazz cafe small group jazz.
No matter what the venue, and whatever the genre being played, I never detect the tipped up, upper mids/treble dominated presentation I hear from so many high end systems.
Live has this darker centre of gravity, with even ostensibly treble heavy instruments like triangle having real body and projection.
Stacore is playing a big part in cementing what I reliably believe is a more authentic live-like sound in my room by enabling my system signature of darker centre of gravity thru lower mids and upper bass to be cemented, eliminating upper frequencies glare, solidifying those mids and upper bass frequencies, and ridding dramatically last vestiges of bass bloat.

Roll off in some systems is as negative as tipped up.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Theo, my well documented move into my new room has been absolutely educational.
The total lack of harshness, even response thru the bass, and overall intelligibility, means all my cds are upgraded, while at the same time even more familiar than ever.
I can honestly say I wouldn’t swap this room for my old one with any choice of component if cost was no object.
And now, any changes I make here are easily discerned with two showing themselves to be a liability ie Shun Mooks and Stillpoints Ultra 5s, one only a moderate benefit ie Entreq, and others a total triumph ie dedicated lines off balanced power, Sablon cables, SR Black fuses, and now Stacores.
And even with these positive changes, small alterations within them produce disproportionately large upsticks.
So, putting my Sablon loom on cable elevators has proved v worthwhile.
And now putting these metal end caps/Teflon washers on the Stacore feet is jaw droppingly amazing.
Again, and I’ve picked this up from Ked banging on over the years to me about using live unamplified as a reference, these end caps are leading to a kind of liberation of energy, as if yet another system bottleneck has been removed.
Unlike Stillpoints Ultra 5s in my system that created a zinginess which pervaded all recordings in the same way resulting in homogeneity and fatigue, the modded Stacore seems to provide more of an “open window” experience, liberating what’s on the recording, but each recording benefitting differently.
So on one track, a certain haze is lifted, on another, hardness is softened, on another, bass becomes more even.
This suggests it’s not a factor enhancing resonance bands as I believe Stillpoints and Shun Mooks do, but it’s as Theo aptly sums up, its revealing of timbre and dynamic truth.

*Please, fans of Mooks and Stillpoints, don’t all jump on me at once, my conclusions are just that, mine, just my honest appraisal on what I’m hearing over time.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I don’t believe my system is rolled off.
My higher frequencies hearing most likely is.
But not my system character.
Radian tweeters that Zu use are nicely extended, but unlike other speakers, are only utilised from 11kHz, so the full range drivers cover at least one and a half octaves higher than more standard speakers.
That’s why Zu have the more tone dense, darker, 90% Ecuadorean chocolate presentation that I believe is closer in tonal and timbral terms to what I’m hearing live, esp in the new room, and esp w the Stacores.

 

[adyc]

Taking all those venue/audience variations into account, I still think that reproduced music tends to sound overly bright!

I totally agree. I believe the acid test of a bright system is solo violin. If the system is bright or harsh, violin will sound sharp and metallic. I think there are many factors contributing to bright sound. Isolation and RFI are main culprits. Recently, I have done some improvements to the grounding. The sound is definitely taking a darker turn. Listening to different records of solo violin, the sound is definitely darker and closer to what I hear in real life.

 

[spiritofmusic]

+1