Aesthetix Io Users Group

[OGH]

Kcin - I am all ears, and I dont doubt the outcome. I wonder if the power supply upgrade could be done for a more reasonable cost here in Europe where I live.

I have the stealth caps, and fully agree, the partial eclipse upgrade was totally worth it. But did it change - so to speak - the nature of the beast? No. The Io remained dependent on very low tube noise in the first gain stage especially.

With a lower output cart, this capability is stretched. The lower the cart output, the higher the demand for ultra low noise tubes. This is why I run a "robust" cart like Lyra Atlas (0.56) instead of a very low output mc. From my experience, there are some plusses and some minuses, with lower strength carts. 0.25 is not enough. At 0.30 we are talking, 0.40 is ok and .56 is fine. Not just due to the lower noise with the higher cart output, but also, how dynamic and 'explosive' (when called for) the Io sounds. Higher output carts engage the Io better than low output carts. With low output I start looking for a SUT (just joking). This is why I have not changed to a lower output single layer version of Atlas. But if this has changed with the new power supplies, so you can now get the full sound and dynamic attack from 0.25 carts, I am - again - all ears.

 

[OGH]

audioquest4life: I have my jumpers set to 62 db gain in a non volume controlled unit. I have Been using that with .34 mv output (Benz LP and LPS) and with Soundsmith Hyperion with .40 MV output and Air Tight Opus 1 with .45 mv output.

Thanks - very interesting. So it seems that the eclipse with new power supplies 2021 works well with carts down to .34 1at least.

I agree that volume is crucial for best sound. And an overlooked aspect. The best mix of different volumes in the system.

To sound its best, my Io with volume has to be tuned "just so" to sound best with the rest of the system. In my case, with volume controls, the sound is best at ca 2 to 3 o'clock on the controls. This is maybe 65 gain (Aesthetix has published a schema).

This will vary according to the system and especially the preamp. My Einstein preamp is a hybrid, but with solid state transformers, somewhat 'muscular' rather than refined compared to pure tube amplification (I think), and so I prefer to turn the Io up a bit, since the sound is better. But not too much, then it gets muddled, with more noise also.

With your Jubilee I would maybe let the preamp take more of the load. Or a Callisto, or other pure tube preamp. As it is, the Einstein does a quite good job, especially after some mods - better tubes, power cable, and feet.

 

[Kcin]

@OGH I don't mean to imply that you can get away with low output cartridges on the Io with this upgrade. it sounds like you're hopeful. Perhaps you can, I use a 0.3mv now in the Etsuro Gold. It's silent like I stated.

You should get the upgrade if you value all the other reasons I offered. It takes the Io to the next level and it makes the Io to current standard.

 

[oldvinyl]

audioquest4life: I have my jumpers set to 62 db gain in a non volume controlled unit. I have Been using that with .34 mv output (Benz LP and LPS) and with Soundsmith Hyperion with .40 MV output and Air Tight Opus 1 with .45 mv output.

Thanks - very interesting. So it seems that the eclipse with new power supplies 2021 works well with carts down to .34 1at least.

I agree that volume is crucial for best sound. And an overlooked aspect. The best mix of different volumes in the system.

To sound its best, my Io with volume has to be tuned "just so" to sound best with the rest of the system. In my case, with volume controls, the sound is best at ca 2 to 3 o'clock on the controls. This is maybe 65 gain (Aesthetix has published a schema).

This will vary according to the system and especially the preamp. My Einstein preamp is a hybrid, but with solid state transformers, somewhat 'muscular' rather than refined compared to pure tube amplification (I think), and so I prefer to turn the Io up a bit, since the sound is better. But not too much, then it gets muddled, with more noise also.

With your Jubilee I would maybe let the preamp take more of the load. Or a Callisto, or other pure tube preamp. As it is, the Einstein does a quite good job, especially after some mods - better tubes, power cable, and feet.

OGH - it may be difficult to eliminate all tube noise with your setup. The Io has 16 tubes in the phono section plus another 8 per power supply. That’s 32 tubes. The Einstein adds another 19 tubes. The Atma-Sphere amps add another 38 tubes.

Do you know if the tube noise of concern is from the Io or the Io + preamp or all three together?

If you are using the single-ended outputs from the Io, you can give balanced XLR outputs throughout the system a try. In my system, the Io balanced outputs are preferred.

 

[OGH]

The Einstein preamp is very silent, the Atma-Sphere amps are quite silent, and the Io also - unless the first gain stage tubes are getting noisy. So I don't have a noise problem, in general terms.
I agree, XLR works best, so this is what I use also. My system is fully balanced.

 

[OGH]

Fully balanced - not quite correct. I use a single ended cable from the cartridge to the Io. And the Io is not fully balanced. But the Io output is balanced, so I use XLR to the balanced preamp, and from there to the balanced amps. Works fine.

 

[Lagonda]

After waiting 8 weeks i picked up my Io from repair 2 weeks ago, drove 300 km and paid the repair guy $1000, came back home and it was still not playing in the right channel ! Back 300 km the next day to drop it of again, what a disappointing false alarm. If he gets it working i will try the balanced outputs, using it as preamp directly, i have only tried it single ended until now and liked the drive better trough my SS preamp. I had volume controls and a extra phono input installed first time it went to the US for repairs, but have not really used any of it until now.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

this is why I built my own RIAA
it´s got 25K hours on it and all good

 

[Lagonda]

this is why I built my own RIAA
it´s got 25K hours on it and all good

I don't think i have 250 hours on my Io, it is always broken !

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

I had slightly more, but I had two!

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

you can always use it as a mooring for a dinghy.......

 

[oldvinyl]

Fully balanced - not quite correct. I use a single ended cable from the cartridge to the Io. And the Io is not fully balanced. But the Io output is balanced, so I use XLR to the balanced preamp, and from there to the balanced amps. Works fine.

Just to clarify - the Io is balanced/differential internally from the second gain stage to the outputs, regardless of RCA or XLR inputs. You’re wired for the best performance.

 

[OGH]

Exactly. So a balanced phono cable into Io's first gain stage does not make a lot of sense. I guess. And I have not read strong opinions that it benefits the sound. It is rather "don't bother". So I use a single ended Kimber KCAG modded to accept the DIN contact in my SME arm. I tried a Hovland some years ago (single ended) but improvements were only marginal, so the Kimber stayed. This is also because changing the phono cable is much more difficult in my system, than changing other interconnects. And I know and like the KCAG type of sound. So it is the "don't worry" category, for me. Someone wrote that "better" can become the enemy of "good". I agree.

 

[oldvinyl]

Exactly. So a balanced phono cable into Io's first gain stage does not make a lot of sense. I guess. And I have not read strong opinions that it benefits the sound. It is rather "don't bother". So I use a single ended Kimber KCAG modded to accept the DIN contact in my SME arm. I tried a Hovland some years ago (single ended) but improvements were only marginal, so the Kimber stayed. This is also because changing the phono cable is much more difficult in my system, than changing other interconnects. And I know and like the KCAG type of sound. So it is the "don't worry" category, for me. Someone wrote that "better" can become the enemy of "good". I agree.

Balanced inputs would have an advantage when the input signal is differential. Balanced inputs (using XLR) cancel common mode noise since the noise is in phase on both signal inputs. Balanced inputs have a higher input level and can improve signal/noise ratio.

A cartridge generates a signal between its 2 terminals, for each channel, but that signal is unreferenced. A cartridge is not generating a differential signal with a common reference (ground).

Even when XLRs are used for the phono input to the Io, it would just be electrically combined to get the same input level as a RCA single-ended input.

 

[OGH]

So, a balanced tonearm cable to the Io XLR inputs would not reduce groove noise?

 

[oldvinyl]

So, a balanced tonearm cable to the Io XLR inputs would not reduce groove noise?

I don’t understand the question.

Balanced cables are meant for differential circuits. That would be devices that generate an in phase and out of phase version of the signal. Common mode noise affects the in phase and opposite phase signal equally. This would be RF or circuit noise that gets into the device generating a balanced signal or coupled through the cables.

Groove noise is more similar to the music in the grooves, except it is not music to our ears. Groove noise is not common mode noise, hence it is not affected by balanced cables.

 

[Kcin]

I don’t understand the question.

Balanced cables are meant for differential circuits. That would be devices that generate an in phase and out of phase version of the signal. Common mode noise affects the in phase and opposite phase signal equally. This would be RF or circuit noise that gets into the device generating a balanced signal or coupled through the cables.

Groove noise is more similar to the music in the grooves, except it is not music to our ears. Groove noise is not common mode noise, hence it is not affected by balanced cables.

Oldvinyl,

You said calmly what I was thinking- I'm glad you explained it so patiently.

 

[OGH]

Oldvinyl - yes, thanks. I was just wondering, since I generally prefer balanced connections, and recently bought a balanced headphone cable that improved the sound even though the headphone OTL amp is somewhat "pseudo balanced". And also, since Io does have balanced inputs, maybe for a reason other than convenience. Someone (Ralph at Atma-sphere?) wrote that the cartridge is "inherently balanced". Maybe it would like to be cabled that way too, to the phono stage. But I have not seen any strong advocates of balanced input to Io. So the benefit is maybe extremely marginal, or zero. No significant reduction of noise (tube or groove noise). Meanwhile, I live happily with my KCAG single ended phono cable.

 

[oldvinyl]

Oldvinyl - yes, thanks. I was just wondering, since I generally prefer balanced connections, and recently bought a balanced headphone cable that improved the sound even though the headphone OTL amp is somewhat "pseudo balanced". And also, since Io does have balanced inputs, maybe for a reason other than convenience. Someone (Ralph at Atma-sphere?) wrote that the cartridge is "inherently balanced". Maybe it would like to be cabled that way too, to the phono stage. But I have not seen any strong advocates of balanced input to Io. So the benefit is maybe extremely marginal, or zero. No significant reduction of noise (tube or groove noise). Meanwhile, I live happily with my KCAG single ended phono cable.

OGH: for phono inputs, it is more correct to say that the Io has balanced and RCA connectors. Even when using XLR connectors, the phono input on the Io is connected to the first gain stage single-ended (not balanced).

There are other phono stages that are fully balanced.

My best guess is that the XLR connectors are there for convenience.

Correct - cartridges have balanced outputs, but there are many factors that affect whether that is fully realized. Phono stages may have XLR inputs, but internally wire it single ended. The tonearm wiring can affect whether the balanced signal is wired for correct performance.

To fully take advantage of a balanced cartridge, the phono stage needs XLR connectors (wired properly) and a differential input.

Per the Io manual from Aesthetix:
The phono stage contains three main amplification sections and an output buffer section.
The first section is a high gain, low noise, zero feedback single ended amplifier composed of
two low-noise 12AX7 vacuum tubes. This then feeds a high gain, low noise differential
amplifier (two 12AX7 vacuum tubes) which amplifies the signal and produces a
complementary minus phase signal. Thus, the unit is balanced from the second amplification
section through the output.

The XLR inputs may indeed sound different - that depends on the cable, wire, shielding, etc.

For what its worth - I use single ended phono inputs and balanced XLR outputs on my Io.

You might consider reading: Pro-ject description of inputs

 

[Lagonda]

My Io is back from local repair, and working perfectly this time ! During the last year and a half since it broke down the last time, my system has changed quite a bit. The extra output from the Grand Cru cartridge compared to the Benz LPS is welcome and makes up for the higher sensitivity of my new Martin Logan Statement speakers, the system is dead quiet. My repair guy supplied me with matched tubes he had in stock, the Io has never been this silent before, absolutely no tube rush. I had forgotten how good the Io sounds, voices are amazing, lyric's are easily understood on songs i have heard hundreds of times without really hearing it all. The combination of electrostatic speakers, Io and Grand Crue is sublime, bass and drum lines just develop so naturally and dynamic it blows me away. I have really enjoyed the way the Statement present music, the scale and grandeur, but had missed some of the emotions i was getting with the MBL/sub-tower combo, now it's back, the Io was the missing ingredient. My ass is sour from dancing around on the listening chair. Instrumental lines are so easy to follow, i hear where the musicians are on stage, but also why they are there ! My repair guy warned me it will probably brake again at some point, and recommended selling it and getting something more reliable, my answer was giving him extra money to stock some of the components, so down time will be shorter in the future, he seems to understand the circuitry and its shortcomings and finding someone close to Copenhagen has been a blessing !