...optical solutions and tech have been thoroughly explored on AS for some years now. Collectively, we may have to update thinking on the battery solution for audio in light of the Taiko Olympus.
Affordable ethernet filters
- Thread starter SoundMann
- Start date
To clarify, I would never say that linear power is always superior to SMPS or battery. It depends on the implementation. Barrows did not completely discount battery power either:
While it is possible to make batteries work well, to do so requires so much extra circuitry, that one might as well have just made a really good linear power supply instead.
Manufacturers make decisions on power supply technology based on a lot of factors (size, cost, performance, etc.). Sometimes manufacturers' designs can be improved upon by a user, sometimes not. It depends on the implementation and on personal preference.
Yes, since 2015 I believe, when the site was properly called "The Computer Audiophile".
Last edited:
...roger that @audiobomber
Barrows is a honcho. I have one of his high-end power supplies, and it is excellent. Horses for courses with power is probably the best guidance.
Barrows is a honcho. I have one of his high-end power supplies, and it is excellent. Horses for courses with power is probably the best guidance.
Republicoftexas69
Well-Known Member
China and India are still 3rd world counties. Our network is fiber in our entire community and has been for 28 years. This is a bout audio, not currency or politics.
The collar on any male 4-pin connector will have to rotate with threading while the pins stay keyed to the fixed center receptacle on the switch, so these Lonlonty adapters won’t work: https://a.co/d/7Z8o8jf
I bought one of these SoTM mbps-d2s batteries for about $200 something like 10 years ago. I've used it pretty much ever since.
The power out is never directly connected to the mains.
it powers the $30 FMC sitting on top of it. They both sit on top of a power supply for one of my phono stages.
I don't know what extra circuity is required. Besides these two little boxes, the signal goes from the FMC to my streamer via two short BJ CAT6a cables connected with an EMO EN70e isolator. This is the industry standard, EMO invented ethernet isolators, most audiophile isolators are copies of EMO devices in fancy cases. The full range and spec sheets are here:
EMO Systems publish a page audio filters here. https://www.emosystems.com/audio-applications/
They use some ASR data to show that these filters can reduce 60Hz mains harmonics. They make the point that without a data sheet, a filter/isolator is meaningless.
If I had a streamer with a SFP input I wouldn't need this stuff. As it is the sum total cost was about $350.
As the sound quality from my digital audio is so satisfying I really don't see the need or point of adding anything.
I agree! You're happy, that's the main thing.
But don't make the mistake of thinking there's no room for improvement.
PS Calling audiophiles stupid is not helpful.
It doesn't matter where your installation, the basic principle is copper ethernet up to 100m, multimode up to 550m and singlemode up to 10km.I agree, except that a very network savvy poster called jabbr, over at The Computer Audiophile website, said that 10G has far lower jitter than 1G. Some people who tried 10G thought it an improvement. When I set up my computer build, it made sense to go with 10G fiber because the difference in cost was minimal vs. 1G fiber.
I am not able to say how 10G impacted the sound, because there were other changes implemented at the same time, but I can say that my desktop system sounds the best it ever has.
I purchased the MikroTik CRS305 shown in jabbr's post below to link with the Intel X710 I0G SFP+ port in my computer. The CRS305 was active as a switch while listening to Qobuz in my main audio system. It was not good with the supplied wall wart, quite a bit better with a cheap Zero-Zone supply and very good powered by a Teddy Pardo 12/2. Unfortunately, not good enough to replace my opticalModule Deluxe v2.
Optical Network Configurations
audiophilestyle.com
It's about sound quality for audiophiles, not distance.
I hear opinions from audiophiles, and from audiophile media daily. I try things when it's feasible to do so. I have four different transceivers in-house and can easily hear the differences. A big difference between you and me is that I listen in my own system before I form an opinion.
Batteries have their own problems, seriously compromised without regulation, and low noise regulators are not easy or cheap to design.
From Alpha Audio:
"Who thought a battery works better: nope…. the bump at 100 Hz is higher and eventually also at 1Hz the noise is highest. Almost 10dB higher than the standard power supply which oddly enough scores best there. On average, the Sbooster power supply seems to score best: it has no real outliers. The lab power supply has some bumps between 10 and 1 Hz."
About power supplies for switches - does it really matter now?
This is what happens when we let a 25MHz VCXO clock the Dlink switch. There is actully quite a bit of noise added!www.alpha-audio.net
Barrows designs power supplies for Sonore:
"Batteries basically suck. I have experimented with many battery based solutions, both post regulated/filtered and not, and all the battery based systems I have tried have not ever equalled a really good linear power supply (or even a really good SMPS with post filtering/regulation).
Batteries are also a PIA, bad for the environment in the long term, and they change their performance (noise, output impedance and voltage) with the level of charge present. While it is possible to make batteries work well, to do so requires so much extra circuitry, that one might as well have just made a really good linear power supply instead."
Inexpensive Alternatives to the Uptone LPS?
Some multimode and singlemode kit is compatible, and the cost difference is negligible for a domestic installation, but if you're installing a server farm with thousands of transceivers you are not going to pay $50/unit for singlemode when $10/unit for multimode will do the job perfectly. If you did, you'd be out of a job.
I didn't get advice from someone online I don't know. I got advice from professional network engineers working at a company that last year sold $80m of equipment to small and medium sized businesses, the largest such company in the UK, who have excellent technical support.
I have a heavily automated house. I have a central switch (24-port, 2xSFP, 90w PoE), a network controller and 5 access points, all programmed and externally managed by the hardware supplier. I have a lot of active devices, 30 are Roon Ready and can operate high-definition audio. I need the quality system information you get from the Ubiquiti system portal that allows me to remotely monitor and control every device.
I run multimode fibre and copper ethernet cable in parallel. They are buried in walls and under floorboards. In the walls it runs through conduits, but to change a cable would require lifting carpet and chipboard that is screwed down. Cabling had to be installed before the music room was built, which took 6 months. It was not a matter of cost, we spent about $0.5m on the building work and refurbishment.
I previously had some 10GTek transceivers from my previous unmanaged system, which was far less complex, I just had a look and I have Ubiquiti branded transceiver plugged into the switch.
I don't know who Barrows is. Someone who designs linear power supplies for a competing brand is going to be biased. I don't know what batteries Alpha Audio tested. LHY make a battery unit, but it is different from the SoTM one because it does not disconnect the supplied power from the mains.
FWIW, the Ubiquiti central switch (about $350) uses the same brand of low noise power supplies (Mean Well) that you find in $5,000 Lumin streamers and DACs, and no doubt others high-end brands.
I tried an audiophile switch before my streamer. It had no benefit at all and it's sitting here unused.
I also have a device to measure electrical, magnetic and radio frequency polution. My audiophile switch is a modified Cisco switch and by lining it with copper garden tape I reduced the EF by 90%. There is no MF or RF coming out of this switch. The problem is the linear power supply, which emits almost as much EF as the switch, and a fair bit of MF.
Being an expert in networking does not directly translate to being an expert in network audio. The people you talked to have never evaluated their products for sound quality, and would consider such a thing ludicrous.
I rely heavily on expert opinions, but from experts who design based on sound quality, not just specs.
I rely heavily on expert opinions, but from experts who design based on sound quality, not just specs.
Suggesting there is sound quality can be affected by light transmitted at 850nm or 1270nm wavelengths is ridiculous.
As it happens, when I mentioned it was for audio, they told me they supply/install in a lot of recording studios.
EMO Systems have been making filters 20 years. They have measurable noise reduction without significantly effecting signal strength. They are specifically designed for audio applications, for which they explain the main issue is AC mains hum. Per their website:
"... manufactures a wide range of network isolator designs and isolation transformers. EMO Systems is a top supplier to a many Fortune 500 companies within the medical device, medical facility planning, audio recording and factory protection industries."
There is a lot of information on the EMO site about isolators, audio applications etc. For example:
This is nothing new. They've been referred to on WBF for years.
The vast majority of audiophile network products are standard commercial products repackaged, sometimes but not always with an upgrade. The Chord EE-1 and all those switches are rebranded versions made by a Chinese company using donor boards for a $30 switch and a few upgrades.
The guy behind NA is not a network engineer. You can look him up online. Before NA he was a hifi dealer. He was doing something in software before that. Someone on the Naim forum looked inside their first ENO product, it was basically a home brew common mode choke with a few connectors you can get on Amazon. If put together properly it should reduce common mode noise, but it costs £650, at least 5 times more than you need to pay for such a device.
There are no managed audiophile switches that I know of. Mine costs £350 including VAT. The two power supplies alone cost £92 if bought in bulk, about £130 if bought in single units. Along with the electronics and case, I would think the manufacturer and trade supplier are each making about a 30% mark-up on cost, probably no more than 75% in total. Looking at audiophile networking products, I suspect the mark-ups could easily be 400% to 500% on cost.
If you put lots of devices in your ethernet signal path you get insertion loss for each device. There is also return loss. An isolator should be reducing common mode noise. These things are easy to measure and commercial products all come with a data sheet. It's as basic as specifying the power output of an amplifier.
I don't know, maybe you buy power amplifiers without asking the power output, or speakers without knowing the frequency range.
You seem very trustworthy of so-called experts designing on sound quality. Who are these experts? Names?
I believed that at one time. It seems though that extra noise can be generated by network interference when a cable isn’t connected. I have no proof to offer other than the reports of certain products dropping perceived noise further down than with a cable disconnected. I found this to possibly be the case in my system too.
I was doing some browsing on switches and hit on a post by your guy Jabbr:
It just so happens the type of battery he describes is exactly as I've been using for 10 years:
It tells you which of the two batteries is providing the output, if the other one is charging and if either needs replacing.
I have a Gryphon DAC that is powered by Supercaps and it doesn't seem too shabby.
I've done a bit of a survey of switches:
The ones I've seen with fully propietary designs are:
- Taiko Olympus (server switch input)
- Melco S100 / S10
- Innuos PhoenixNet
- SoTM SNH-10G
All of these have some brand of LAN isolator, all have datasheets online, listed below. The best spec seems to the isolator used by Taiko, they cost about $7 each and there are 4 of them. The worst measuring isolator was found in the MicroTik switches, although these are highly regarded on switch websites, the most popular one being https://www.servethehome.com/
The Taiko switch is SFP only so does not have a LAN isolator.
The Melco and Innuos have serious power linear supplies, which are half or more of the cost. Taiko and SoTM have a 12v jack and supply a wall wart, change at your pleasure.
There are two switches based on the QNAP 4-port 2xSFP switch, highly regarded and costs £130.
QSW-2104-2S | A plug & play switch featuring 10GbE and 2.5GbE connectivity, suited for SOHO and professionals
The QSW-2104-2S is an easy-to-use unmanaged switch with 2-port 10GbE SFP+ and 4-port 2.5GbE RJ45, allowing you to upgrade your network environment by connecting a wider range of devices with different bandwidth requirements. With high performance and superb functionality, the QSW-2104-2S is the...
www.qnap.com
- After Dark - £876 (with OXCO and LPS options)
QNAP QSW-2104-2S Network Hubs x Giesemann OCXO Edition
QNAP QSW-2104-2S Network Hubs x Giesemann OCXO Edition Audiophile are welcome to approach us for details on modification. The below is an example of modification we done for one customer recently. This is a switch from QNAP QSW-2104-2S. The final product can be purchase in AfterDark. web store...
www.adark.co
Zayin Audio, Hi-end audio, Audiophile grade networking switch | audio linear power supply
Zayin Audio Satrgate - the audiophile grade networking switch designed for audiophiles and videophiles who demand the very best in network performance and reliability.
www.zayinaudio.com
The Zayin is more than double the price for similar upgrades to the same donor switch, but comes in a nice box.
LHY uses a Linksys donor switch, seems quite popular and well designed with a low noise SMPS, lots of power regulation and added OXCO.
All these switches have two things in common:
- They all have internal LAN isolation, so there seems no need for an external LAN isolator.
- There are all fully transparent about their design
The NA Tempus is by exception a complete mystery. For all we know it's a $100 switch in a posh case. There are a few odd things:
- It has 2x100mbs 6x1gbs otherwise unique to the Melco S100/2
- It has 4xSFP that are apparently non-functional. If it is proprietary, why don't they work?
Chord EE-1, NuPrime, Bonn N8 (±£500) are all based on a £30 Zyxel board, with a cheap TXCo chip upgrade, 5v iFi power supply and sometimes a new case. So a very nice profit margin. Zyxel do not appear to use LAN isolators so an external one might help. I have one of these Zyxel.
If I wanted one of these as a switch and LAN isolator, and for me it must accommodate fibre, I'd go for the Melco S100/2. Plus they have pedigree, a Japanese family owned business with a 50-year reputation in network servers and infrastructure products.
LAN isolators used in these switches
https://www.we-online.com/components/products/datasheet/749013011A.pdf (Taiko)
https://www.xmultiple.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/XTFZ-PC13N1ZH.pdf (MicroTik)
For reference, the EMOsystems data sheet is here, with the measurements at the end.
Do you have any observations about which one of these devices you prefer to listen to for sound quality?
Tom
Uptone Audio is happy to show off their original design.
I said jabbr is network savvy. That does not imply that his gear choices are optimal for sound quality. Note that he runs his network at 100G. I'm not sure if that's a great idea for sound quality, but it certainly is unusual.
I'm sure your SOtM battery is a very good performer. I have read a review where it was outperformed by a good linear supply. I don't believe for a second that your basic 10GTek switch (which I also own) can come close to my opticalModule Deluxe v2 with Teddy Pardo MiniTeddy LPS. But this is not a competition. My point is, you seem to think your network is perfect and audiophiles are fools. Your setup is perfectly fine, it gets the job done, but it's far from state of the (audiophile) art.
Last edited:
Out of the three switches of the LHY "switch family" (SW-6, SW-8, SW-10) only the SW-8 uses a Linksys donor board. The SW-10 also uses a donor board, albeit a Cisco one, however the SW-6 seems to be an entirely proprietary design (no donor board involved at all). Also, all LHY Audio switches have linear power supplies, not SMPS based ones.
The Orient provides us with two more "switch families" that are not mentioned here: the Gustard N18 one (in standard and Pro versions) with embedded linear power supplies in both models and the Matrix Audio SS-1 one (in standard and Pro versions as well) that seem to be influenced by SOtM design principles (clock synthesizer). Out of these two the later includes a linear power supply, while the former comes standard with an SMPS one but can also be externally powered by an outboard power supply of one's choice with the SMPS disengaged.
Gustard: https://www.gustard.com/?post_type=products&page_id=17777
Matrix Audio: https://www.matrix-digi.com/product/111/SS-1_Pro_SS-1
For those who may be interested, there is a new Ethernet filter I didn't even know existed, until about a week or two ago. A good friend of mine stopped by my house, after us both listening to his system, and we decided that we would try this device on my system. It is the Aardvark Ultra.
aardvark.com.ar
Now, please do NOT consider this any kind of review, as it was only in my system for about a half an hour. Given that short amount of time, I did hear things that sounded "overall" pleasing but at the same time, it made other things sound worse. We both chalked that up to it being introduced to the rig, with no burn in time allotted and we only did one A/B. After that, we just switched back to song selections that we had both just heard on his and my system(s).
I'll admit, I was a little surprised that I heard any change at all. Here's why. Currently in the network and circuit (filter wise) -
Upstream highlights - 5 Purons, Veri-Fi Snubway and Main Stream - Master Class Dynamic Parallel AC Line Conditioner combo
At the system highlights - EtherRegen v1 with Mutec REF 10 SE 120 Master Clock, Shunyata Omega Ethernet straight into a Muon Pro, into a Lumin UXI.
While I have learned that not one device alone rids the system of all noise/associated gremlins that ride or enter the signal along the way (no matter what the marketing BS may be), the cumulative effort has made a rather big difference to my streaming. I might even go so far as to say that it really made a huge difference. I went from background listening only when streaming, to being able to listen to the streaming portion of the rig for ungodly amounts of time I won't admit here, while comfortably sitting in the sweet spot - getting sucked into the performances, instead of just listening to a reproductive effort.
Getting back to the Aardvark Ultra. The change was audible and apparent, from the moment music started. I could only imagine, that if someone didn't have any type of Ethernet noise reduction/filtering, that this unit would make a rather big difference to the end result as to what hits your ears. I just can't offer you an evaluation, based upon 30 minutes of listening on a system we had just fired up 20 minutes prior to install of the Ultra.
My friend also made a rather hefty purchase of three QSA PC's, along with the upgrade from his Aardvark (now referred to as the "Classic"), to the Ultra. So, I can't comment about just the Ultra in his system either. He would have left the Ultra for me to further evaluate, but he is currently writing up a review for it and needs it for evaluation. We were curious to see what it did to my system, so we had some audio fun and gave it a whirl.
I just wanted to let everyone know that there is yet another filter on the market. Many of you may have already known about it, and for that, my apologies to bring you old news.
Tom
* One further note - The Ultra is supposed to be the very last Ethernet component before the NAP. Given the overhang on the back of the Lumin UX1, we went with an easier way to hook it up. We installed it in between the Omega and the Muon Pro. A 1 minute install versus about an hour and a lot of frustration, doing the human pretzel to reconfigure...only to do the same thing when disconnecting it.
Aardvark - Ethernet Noise Isolation
Ethernet Noise Isolation - Aislacion de Ruido Ethernet
Now, please do NOT consider this any kind of review, as it was only in my system for about a half an hour. Given that short amount of time, I did hear things that sounded "overall" pleasing but at the same time, it made other things sound worse. We both chalked that up to it being introduced to the rig, with no burn in time allotted and we only did one A/B. After that, we just switched back to song selections that we had both just heard on his and my system(s).
I'll admit, I was a little surprised that I heard any change at all. Here's why. Currently in the network and circuit (filter wise) -
Upstream highlights - 5 Purons, Veri-Fi Snubway and Main Stream - Master Class Dynamic Parallel AC Line Conditioner combo
At the system highlights - EtherRegen v1 with Mutec REF 10 SE 120 Master Clock, Shunyata Omega Ethernet straight into a Muon Pro, into a Lumin UXI.
While I have learned that not one device alone rids the system of all noise/associated gremlins that ride or enter the signal along the way (no matter what the marketing BS may be), the cumulative effort has made a rather big difference to my streaming. I might even go so far as to say that it really made a huge difference. I went from background listening only when streaming, to being able to listen to the streaming portion of the rig for ungodly amounts of time I won't admit here, while comfortably sitting in the sweet spot - getting sucked into the performances, instead of just listening to a reproductive effort.
Getting back to the Aardvark Ultra. The change was audible and apparent, from the moment music started. I could only imagine, that if someone didn't have any type of Ethernet noise reduction/filtering, that this unit would make a rather big difference to the end result as to what hits your ears. I just can't offer you an evaluation, based upon 30 minutes of listening on a system we had just fired up 20 minutes prior to install of the Ultra.
My friend also made a rather hefty purchase of three QSA PC's, along with the upgrade from his Aardvark (now referred to as the "Classic"), to the Ultra. So, I can't comment about just the Ultra in his system either. He would have left the Ultra for me to further evaluate, but he is currently writing up a review for it and needs it for evaluation. We were curious to see what it did to my system, so we had some audio fun and gave it a whirl.
I just wanted to let everyone know that there is yet another filter on the market. Many of you may have already known about it, and for that, my apologies to bring you old news.
Tom
* One further note - The Ultra is supposed to be the very last Ethernet component before the NAP. Given the overhang on the back of the Lumin UX1, we went with an easier way to hook it up. We installed it in between the Omega and the Muon Pro. A 1 minute install versus about an hour and a lot of frustration, doing the human pretzel to reconfigure...only to do the same thing when disconnecting it.
Republicoftexas69
Well-Known Member
Dan you are correct and are being trolled a bit. The use of the Sonore Optical Module Deluxe v2 and the EtherRegen have been revolutionary in my system along with your recommendations on FSP I am very happy.
Republicoftexas69
Well-Known Member
Tom. Thank you for your post. Would be interesting as to how your system would sound per the recommendations of Aardvark and without the Muon Pro. Hey will give you some time to stretch and limber up young manFor those who may be interested, there is a new Ethernet filter I didn't even know existed, until about a week or two ago. A good friend of mine stopped by my house, after us both listening to his system, and we decided that we would try this device on my system. It is the Aardvark Ultra.
Aardvark - Ethernet Noise Isolation
Ethernet Noise Isolation - Aislacion de Ruido Ethernet
Now, please do NOT consider this any kind of review, as it was only in my system for about a half an hour. Given that short amount of time, I did hear things that sounded "overall" pleasing but at the same time, it made other things sound worse. We both chalked that up to it being introduced to the rig, with no burn in time allotted and we only did one A/B. After that, we just switched back to song selections that we had both just heard on his and my system(s).
I'll admit, I was a little surprised that I heard any change at all. Here's why. Currently in the network and circuit (filter wise) -
Upstream highlights - 5 Purons, Veri-Fi Snubway and Main Stream - Master Class Dynamic Parallel AC Line Conditioner combo
At the system highlights - EtherRegen v1 with Mutec REF 10 SE 120 Master Clock, Shunyata Omega Ethernet straight into a Muon Pro, into a Lumin UXI.
While I have learned that not one device alone rids the system of all noise/associated gremlins that ride or enter the signal along the way (no matter what the marketing BS may be), the cumulative effort has made a rather big difference to my streaming. I might even go so far as to say that it really made a huge difference. I went from background listening only when streaming, to being able to listen to the streaming portion of the rig for ungodly amounts of time I won't admit here, while comfortably sitting in the sweet spot - getting sucked into the performances, instead of just listening to a reproductive effort.
Getting back to the Aardvark Ultra. The change was audible and apparent, from the moment music started. I could only imagine, that if someone didn't have any type of Ethernet noise reduction/filtering, that this unit would make a rather big difference to the end result as to what hits your ears. I just can't offer you an evaluation, based upon 30 minutes of listening on a system we had just fired up 20 minutes prior to install of the Ultra.
My friend also made a rather hefty purchase of three QSA PC's, along with the upgrade from his Aardvark (now referred to as the "Classic"), to the Ultra. So, I can't comment about just the Ultra in his system either. He would have left the Ultra for me to further evaluate, but he is currently writing up a review for it and needs it for evaluation. We were curious to see what it did to my system, so we had some audio fun and gave it a whirl.
I just wanted to let everyone know that there is yet another filter on the market. Many of you may have already known about it, and for that, my apologies to bring you old news.
Tom
* One further note - The Ultra is supposed to be the very last Ethernet component before the NAP. Given the overhang on the back of the Lumin UX1, we went with an easier way to hook it up. We installed it in between the Omega and the Muon Pro. A 1 minute install versus about an hour and a lot of frustration, doing the human pretzel to reconfigure...only to do the same thing when disconnecting it.
Similar threads
