Affordable ethernet filters

[ssfas]

Do you have any observations about which one of these devices you prefer to listen to for sound quality?

Tom

I'ver been using a TPLink FMC with a battery power supply and external EMO LAN isolator for years.

I tried a Chord EE-1. No audible difference.
I tried a much higher quality clock in a Cisco switch. No audible difference.
Both of these were placed between the FMC and the streamer.

I've mostly bought digital products based on design and specification, I bought my DAC after a blind A/B listening test. This has worked for me, except for the switches above that I found useless. The only designer I've spoken to at length is Sean Jacobs, he lives here in the UK, who makes cables as well as designing power supplies for Innuos and others, and he designs them on technical performance.

I have spoken at length to Richard Coleman, who was the UK Sales Manager at Innuos. I think he's now at Naim.

When you look at these products, a lot of them are clearly designed to be used a preferred way:
- Taiko: Fibre in and fibre out to Taiko Extreme
- Melco: copper in (100mbs and 1gbs) and fibre out to Lumin streamers (which have SFP ports)
- Innuos: copper in and copper out to Innuos streamers, using 100mbs
- After Dark and Zayin: General purpose 10gps for speed merchants

As my main hifi system is fed from a central managed switch over fibre, the only product that might be of use is the Melco S100/2, basically as an expensive FMC.

If I was using a copper feed, I would go for the Innuos PhoenixNet and plug it directly into my Innuos Pulsar. It's typical purist, no frills Innuos design. I've used two of their units with Sean Jacobs designed power, they sound superb, I'd happily buy another.

I don't have the luxury of buying multiple switches sourced from around the world. Who does? Who in their right mind would buy the Zayin from the USA, the After Dark from Hong Kong and the QNAP from Amazon, when they are all the same switch with different power supplies.

Audiophile switches are all unmanaged. I use a managed switch. I've just switched this evening to Innuos Sense on a VLAN. There are 100 active devices on my network. The music VLAN restricts data getting to my audio system to 3 (my streamer, my music library and my mac to control it), excluding all other network traffic. Who knows what difference this makes, who here uses a VLN to isolate their audio?

 

[treitz3]

So, to answer my question? Your answer is no.

Tom

 

[treitz3]

Tom. Thank you for your post. Would be interesting as to how your system would sound per the recommendations of Aardvark and without the Muon Pro. Hey will give you some time to stretch and limber up young man

Okay, so here is the conundrum. Both devices are supposed to be the very last component prior to entering into a NAP.

While it would be a worthwhile experiment for me? At the moment, I am so very pleasantly happy with the sound I currently have been enjoying? It would take quite a bit of change to make me change or alter something. I am not looking for a lateral move or a slight change.

If I try something in my system? It had better knock my socks off....and in a profound way (or at least offer me glimpses of this right off the bat).

This may sound weird to some here but experience has taught me that some of the worst sounding (when it comes to Ethernet based sound) components, they usually end up staying in the system.

Case in point - The Muon Pro. It was horrible when I hooked it up....but there were glimpses of promise that I wanted to get more of. It was horrible for the next week....and then it FINALLY came into fruition. The sounds I heard during that week was akin to a drug addict in complete withdrawal, candyflipping once more and then finally settling down to get down to business after another withdrawal period. It was honestly gawd awful and very painful to experience.

What I previously knew at that point, was a change in another friends system that went beyond that of the Omega. In other words, I knew what to expect after it had finally (and painfully) broken in. It was replicated in my system (after the initial break in period) and for that? I am grateful.

I did not hear any part of this with the Ultra. It was just some aspects of the overall presentation that sounded more pleasing.

That said, at this point in time? I can't justify placing this in my rig. Time may tell otherwise but at this moment in time (a snapshot, if you will), the Muon Pro has offered me more than enough, along with the other associated gear, to please me beyond what I ever expected for the streaming portion of my rig.

Lateral movements don't interest me.

Tom

 

[ssfas]

Dan you are correct and are being trolled a bit. The use of the Sonore Optical Module Deluxe v2 and the EtherRegen have been revolutionary in my system along with your recommendations on FSP I am very happy.

The Sonore seemed well regarded here in the UK, but there were supply issues. The guy who sells then has a good reputation for making music servers. I spoke to him and considered it, but I would have needed a Sonore, a separate LPS and a Sonicorbiter server for Roon Core. Instead I got an Innuos Zen Mk3 that did everything in one box, including a CD ripper and music library.

Sonore and SoTM seem to be to be more "techy" type products, not very user-friendly, lots of little boxes and cables everywhere. The distributor told me this puts off certain types of customers, even if they perform very well.

Apparently some people are put off because Sonore is a usb-based product and there is a thing that usb is inherently bad. I've only ever used usb for wired connections and still do.

The same thing happened with SoTM. I even got an invoice. 5 boxes and a special cable were needed for streaming. I would have needed another Puritan unit and cables. This was ridiculous. I bought the Innuos Pulsar, from the same supplier, it was more expensive, but just one box and one mains cable.

 

[ssfas]

So, to answer my question? Your answer is no.

Tom

Yes, in that I've liked and kept some products, and rejected others. But I've chosen based on specification and how they fit in my system, given it is a managed network.

@Republicoftexas69 reminded me that I enquired about a Sonore Optical Deluxe (V2) about 6 months ago. You couldn't get one over here, so I emailed with the guy who sells them in the USA, who confirmed it is a straight swap with the TPLink and it will work with my SotM battery.

They now appear to be in stock in the UK. I think I'll buy one.

 

[Synaxis]

Okay, so here is the conundrum. Both devices are supposed to be the very last component prior to entering into a NAP.

While it would be a worthwhile experiment for me? At the moment, I am so very pleasantly happy with the sound I currently have been enjoying? It would take quite a bit of change to make me change or alter something. I am not looking for a lateral move or a slight change.

If I try something in my system? It had better knock my socks off....and in a profound way (or at least offer me glimpses of this right off the bat).

This may sound weird to some here but experience has taught me that some of the worst sounding (when it comes to Ethernet based sound) components, they usually end up staying in the system.

Case in point - The Muon Pro. It was horrible when I hooked it up....but there were glimpses of promise that I wanted to get more of. It was horrible for the next week....and then it FINALLY came into fruition. The sounds I heard during that week was akin to a drug addict in complete withdrawal, candyflipping once more and then finally settling down to get down to business after another withdrawal period. It was honestly gawd awful and very painful to experience.

What I previously knew at that point, was a change in another friends system that went beyond that of the Omega. In other words, I knew what to expect after it had finally (and painfully) broken in. It was replicated in my system (after the initial break in period) and for that? I am grateful.

I did not hear any part of this with the Ultra. It was just some aspects of the overall presentation that sounded more pleasing.

That said, at this point in time? I can't justify placing this in my rig. Time may tell otherwise but at this moment in time (a snapshot, if you will), the Muon Pro has offered me more than enough, along with the other associated gear, to please me beyond what I ever expected for the streaming portion of my rig.

Lateral movements don't interest me.

Tom

I have both Aardvark and the Muon Pro.

I also agree the Muon Pro needs some serious burn in as out of the box it it quite rough.

Having tried a multitude of set up configurations, I get the best sound with the Muon Pro going into my server, then the Aardvark between the server and streamer.

I've got some new digital changes coming, so I'll be experimenting again to see if that is still the most ideal set up in my particular case.

 

[kennyb123]

Yes, in that I've liked and kept some products, and rejected others.

A great answer would have been: “No, I haven’t heard any of the switches I mentioned in post #134 above, but I do plan on auditioning at least one of them so I can become better informed about how these can benefit my enjoyment of music.”

 

[audiobomber]

I have both Aardvark and the Muon Pro.

I also agree the Muon Pro needs some serious burn in as out of the box it it quite rough.

Having tried a multitude of set up configurations, I get the best sound with the Muon Pro going into my server, then the Aardvark between the server and streamer.

I've got some new digital changes coming, so I'll be experimenting again to see if that is still the most ideal set up in my particular case.

I think people would like to know which to get if you only need or want one. Could you do a solo head to head comparison?

 

[Republicoftexas69]

The Sonore seemed well regarded here in the UK, but there were supply issues. The guy who sells then has a good reputation for making music servers. I spoke to him and considered it, but I would have needed a Sonore, a separate LPS and a Sonicorbiter server for Roon Core. Instead I got an Innuos Zen Mk3 that did everything in one box, including a CD ripper and music library.

Sonore and SoTM seem to be to be more "techy" type products, not very user-friendly, lots of little boxes and cables everywhere. The distributor told me this puts off certain types of customers, even if they perform very well.

Apparently some people are put off because Sonore is a usb-based product and there is a thing that usb is inherently bad. I've only ever used usb for wired connections and still do.

The same thing happened with SoTM. I even got an invoice. 5 boxes and a special cable were needed for streaming. I would have needed another Puritan unit and cables. This was ridiculous. I bought the Innuos Pulsar, from the same supplier, it was more expensive, but just one box and one mains cable.

View attachment 142480

Well not really. I use my Sonore Optical Module Deluxe v2 and ER with my Innuos Zenith Mk III and love it. No more boxes than you.

 

[ssfas]

A great answer would have been: “No, I haven’t heard any of the switches I mentioned in post #134 above, but I do plan on auditioning at least one of them so I can become better informed about how these can benefit my enjoyment of music.”

This thread is about ethernet filters, otherwise known as LAN isolators, and I looked how all those products dealt with LAN isolation.

Most of them use near identical transformer modules. Like many other people, I use external in-line LAN isolators (EMO and Delock).

The only mystery is the Network Acoustics switch because they alone don't show their electronics, so you can't see if they use an isolator and, if so, what one, or how they clean any AC mains hum that comes in the RJ45 ports of their switch.

Asking me if I've used all the switches is about as relevant as asking me what I had for dinner. My first music server bought 15 years ago was noisy and sounded pretty unpleasant, so I know BAD.

Eliminating noise by:
- Including a fibre bridge, whether from the switch or a Sonore type product.
- Keeping any heavy lifting like Roon or HQP elsewhere on your network
- Using streamers and hardware that consume very little power
- Using machines with extremely low noise power supplies

This is all common knowledge, has been for years, loads of people do it. It's often cheap and easy, my first fibre switch was a Cisco 2960 for $70 off eBay. You look at these audiophile switching products, you see how they often take similar approaches, some with donor switch cards, some designed from the ground up, but most also have important differences that suit their own streaming partners/products.

You need filtration? Look inside to see if there's a filter. Check its specification. Or get an external one. Delock cost $30, EMO a bit more, I have one of each, they work the same way.

Having spent a couple of hours looking at these switches, the Melco S100/2 impresses as by far the most flexible and likely best performer all round. They make it clear that they offer SFP for Lumin and Linn streamers that have fibre SFP inputs, and 100mbs outputs for people using copper ethernet connections. You can choose whether to use a $20 power supply or their own $2,000 power supply, or any other brand of PS, and there is a Pink Faun clock upgrade option. So how does it sound? It obviously depends ... but I'd buy one on spec alone and then try different power supplies.

By contrast, the Taiko seems totally inflexible, designed purely to do a specific task for Taiko products, so pointless to try and use on anything else.

 

[Synaxis]

I think people would like to know which to get if you only need or want one. Could you do a solo head to head comparison?

Hi - I have tried both.

The Muon Pro may possibly highlight any issues you have upstream. So if you have a poor switch let's say, you may really know you have a poor switch.

However when I tweaked what I had upstream the MP became a wonderful add.

To me the Aardvark - while adding value - did not have the degree of effect the MP did so it may be better for some. Note the Aardvark I have I think was like $300 or so if I remember correctly? The MP is more money.

Hope that helps.

 

[kennyb123]

This thread is about ethernet filters

Hilarious that you would deflect criticism of your ‘survey of switches’ post this way.

 

[treitz3]

A survey of measurements is not the same thing as hearing/listening.

One can't hear measurements. (Maybe they can to a certain point - but it's not the same thing)

Tom

 

[Republicoftexas69]

This thread is about ethernet filters, otherwise known as LAN isolators, and I looked how all those products dealt with LAN isolation.

Most of them use near identical transformer modules. Like many other people, I use external in-line LAN isolators (EMO and Delock).

The only mystery is the Network Acoustics switch because they alone don't show their electronics, so you can't see if they use an isolator and, if so, what one, or how they clean any AC mains hum that comes in the RJ45 ports of their switch.

Asking me if I've used all the switches is about as relevant as asking me what I had for dinner. My first music server bought 15 years ago was noisy and sounded pretty unpleasant, so I know BAD.

Eliminating noise by:
- Including a fibre bridge, whether from the switch or a Sonore type product.
- Keeping any heavy lifting like Roon or HQP elsewhere on your network
- Using streamers and hardware that consume very little power
- Using machines with extremely low noise power supplies

This is all common knowledge, has been for years, loads of people do it. It's often cheap and easy, my first fibre switch was a Cisco 2960 for $70 off eBay. You look at these audiophile switching products, you see how they often take similar approaches, some with donor switch cards, some designed from the ground up, but most also have important differences that suit their own streaming partners/products.

You need filtration? Look inside to see if there's a filter. Check its specification. Or get an external one. Delock cost $30, EMO a bit more, I have one of each, they work the same way.

Having spent a couple of hours looking at these switches, the Melco S100/2 impresses as by far the most flexible and likely best performer all round. They make it clear that they offer SFP for Lumin and Linn streamers that have fibre SFP inputs, and 100mbs outputs for people using copper ethernet connections. You can choose whether to use a $20 power supply or their own $2,000 power supply, or any other brand of PS, and there is a Pink Faun clock upgrade option. So how does it sound? It obviously depends ... but I'd buy one on spec alone and then try different power supplies.

By contrast, the Taiko seems totally inflexible, designed purely to do a specific task for Taiko products, so pointless to try and use on anything else.

To funny. Pot meet kettle.

 

[kennyb123]

A survey of measurements is not the same thing as hearing/listening.

One can't hear measurements. (Maybe they can to a certain point - but it's not the same thing)

When a person repeatedly deflects to avoid having to answer questions, it’s often the case that it’s done as a defense mechanism because they don’t want to feel bad about themselves or look bad in front of others. They might not be able to admit—even to themselves—that they may have done something wrong or that they might not measure up in some way. I’m not meaning to say that this has been at play here. I just wanted to point out that there very well could be some who might have a very difficult time agreeing with the point you made in the text I quoted for reasons we might never understand.

 

[treitz3]

My apologies for the off topic post but it honestly feels like some of us are conversing with Amir again.

Tom

 

[tedwoods]

The Sonore seemed well regarded here in the UK, but there were supply issues. The guy who sells then has a good reputation for making music servers. I spoke to him and considered it, but I would have needed a Sonore, a separate LPS and a Sonicorbiter server for Roon Core. Instead I got an Innuos Zen Mk3 that did everything in one box, including a CD ripper and music library.

Sonore and SoTM seem to be to be more "techy" type products, not very user-friendly, lots of little boxes and cables everywhere. The distributor told me this puts off certain types of customers, even if they perform very well.

Apparently some people are put off because Sonore is a usb-based product and there is a thing that usb is inherently bad. I've only ever used usb for wired connections and still do.

The same thing happened with SoTM. I even got an invoice. 5 boxes and a special cable were needed for streaming. I would have needed another Puritan unit and cables. This was ridiculous. I bought the Innuos Pulsar, from the same supplier, it was more expensive, but just one box and one mains cable.

View attachment 142480

Regarding the SOtM vs Innuos box count, I completely agree with you, since I actually did the exact same thing as you.
However, I have ordered and use to great effect the SOtM, iSO-CAT7 filter.
Of course, I cannot directly compare it to all the other filters around, since I don't have the funds (and most certainly the stamina...) to perform any sort of shootout on my own, but I can tell you it performs marvelously and to be entirely honest if I were forced to choose between that and the Innuos switch that I also have, I wouldn't hesitate to keep it in my system instead of my switch. It's that good...

 

[ssfas]

Hilarious that you would deflect criticism of your ‘survey of switches’ post this way.

I surveyed filters in switches, in some cases switches apparently without filters. I provided links to the isolators in the switches.

I looked at IT reviews of some switches. They mainly obsess about speed and ignore power supplies, which audiophiles obsess about.
As it happens, the QNAP switch is regarded in the IT world as a top product, has good isolation, so it makes sense that Zayin and After Dark use it. It occurred to me if you wanted a good copper/fibre switch with good LAN isolation, you could do a lot worse than the QNAP QSW-2104-2S 2-port with a 12v LPS for about $400 all in.

Regarding the SOtM vs Innuos box count, I completely agree with you, since I actually did the exact same thing as you.
However, I have ordered and use to great effect the SOtM, iSO-CAT7 filter.
Of course, I cannot directly compare it to all the other filters around, since I don't have the funds (and most certainly the stamina...) to perform any sort of shootout on my own, but I can tell you it performs marvelously and to be entirely honest if I were forced to choose between that and the Innuos switch that I also have, I wouldn't hesitate to keep it in my system instead of my switch. It's that good...

Many of these inline filters are near identical, loads of people make them, and they use a range of transformer modules. I agree stamina would be required given they all do much the same job in terms of DC noise reduction.

The SoTM one you use looks a lot more complex an a cut above the competition. The cheapest one around, the Delock (below) that costs about £10. The transformer module costs about £1.

Yours appears to have four separate isolators, rather than all being in one module as below, plus added regulation. A serious looking product.

iSO-CAT7

6moons.com

The Innuos switch looks like a thing of beauty in their minimalist style. Four shielded ports, individual LAN isolators, the switch chip and an OCXO clock. Everything else in the box is the power supply. I understand it operates at 100mbps only. They say that gives the lowest jitter. Seems to me a simple and well thought out exercise in noise reduction.

The PhoenixNet is more about reclocking the signal and Innuos told me it is likely more effective on earlier models like the Zen Mk3 and Zenith Mk3. Instead of getting a PhoenixNet, I upgraded to the Pulsar, which as an OCXO clock on the usb out. My EMO filter sits before the streamer.

 

[ssfas]

My apologies for the off topic post but it honestly feels like some of us are conversing with Amir again.

Tom

I was reading a review of the first version of @tedwoods SoTM filter done 10 years ago and whoever wrote it summed up exactly how I feel about listening to these things. They clearly work, it's unmistakeable, but it's difficult to put your finger on it. Bear in mind in this review was based on a stream from a tower PC that probably generated more noise than data.

Clearly there was a difference. But it fell outside the primitive treble/mid/bass and soundstage parameters reviewers love to discuss. From today's device you'd neither expect any changes there nor will you get any. Your focus has to be on something else. And you have to trust your ears. Then you might hone in on the contrast between sounds and silence particularly during the pianissimo interludes and lazy fades. You might call the direct stream somehow dirtier, sharper or more pixelly; the one with the 'black' box smoother, rounder, less nervous and more settled. In Martina's flageolet exploits, you might detect more grit without the SOtM. Bass transients could seem wirier and leaner. Are you imagining it to justify a $350 expense that doesn't put food into the refrigerator? After all, the direct stream doesn't sound noisier per se. At all. This experiment is about whether additional noise somehow interacts with (intermodulates) the audio signal and perhaps even affects jitter. With emphasis on somehow, the SOtM isolator works in that domain and hearing notices it.

6moons audioreviews: SOtM iSO-CAT6

My highly technical approach to digital music developed over 15 years can be illustrated with Amir-type precision, thus. It has proven fool-proof. I was streaming off Qobuz the remaster of Art Blakey "Caravan" this afternoon and it was so alive with such a massive soundstage I had to go for a walk in the cold rain to recover.


A few tips I picked up, one from Andrew Everard was Dodomat, it's the stuff used in cars for sound insulation, it's self adhesive and you can stick it inside most components to reduce vibrations and some EMF. Garden copper slug tape reduced EMF coming out of one of my switches by 90%, also self-adhesive.



LAN isolators are just about everywhere. On copper ethernet they filter DC noise down by about 30 - 40dB and reduce AC mains hum. The best measuring and most expensive I saw were those used in the Taiko Extreme, costing about $10 each. Made in Germany. They are the Maybach's of the isolator world.

Even my little TPLink FMC has one, more Daihatsu than Maybach, which is maybe why the following inline EMO unit has little if any effect.


The article ends:
... the number of serious listeners doing LANfi, the influence of Ethernet cabling and LAN isolators will become a new frontier and business op
TRUE FORESIGHT.

 

[NigelB]

Audiophile switches are all unmanaged. I use a managed switch. I've just switched this evening to Innuos Sense on a VLAN. There are 100 active devices on my network. The music VLAN restricts data getting to my audio system to 3 (my streamer, my music library and my mac to control it), excluding all other network traffic. Who knows what difference this makes, who here uses a VLN to isolate their audio?

You have a managed switch with 100 active devices attached?

Apologies if it is buried in the 9 pages of posts here but I think you said you tried one or more audiophile switches. I'd be grateful if you could clarify:
- Where in your network did you try them? What were they attached directly to (in and out)?
- What sort (brand or Cat) cable did you use between the switch(es) and the streamer?
- How long was this cable?

These are all irrelevant concerns for the movement of data around a network but highly pertinent to the impact a switch (any switch, managed or unmanaged, audiophile or enterprise) might have on sound quality.

Thanks.