American Sound AS-2000 Installations- Far East (Tango)

[Stacore]

I don't actually think there's any need to not ground anything. But some designers have very... various ways of causing problems with their ideas of grounding.

Correct, there are tons of super sensitive equipment mounted on planes or satelites which are obviously not grounded but still work Grounding is only for safety and is something that can drive crazy even the most patient person. For those patient ones, here is a nice presentation clearly stating what is what [long read alert]

Grounding, bounding and hum (PDF)

For those with more technical ambitions, the bible of the subject: "Grounding and shielding techniques" Ralph Morrison
Cheers,

 

[microstrip]

Loud hum at first and I did just what you said. Hum is gone.

Thank you Mike
Tang

Removing ground pins normally solves the hum issues but can be a serious safety issue, perhaps more relevant in countries with 220/230V mains than in those with 110V.

 

[microstrip]

My interconnect from preamp to amp is also 13 meters Jack and zero hum

It would be great if you describe what equipment you ground and what you float.

 

[bonzo75]

Removing ground pins normally solves the hum issues but can be a serious safety issue, perhaps more relevant in countries with 220/230V mains than in those with 110V.

I think you should do a post on audio safety, and hopefully that can become a sticky. This should be about safety and not about sonic benefits of the risks taken

 

[microstrip]

Correct, there are tons of super sensitive equipment mounted on planes or satelites which are obviously not grounded but still work Grounding is only for safety and is something that can drive crazy even the most patient person. For those patient ones, here is a nice presentation clearly stating what is what [long read alert]

Grounding, bounding and hum (PDF)

For those with more technical ambitions, the bible of the subject: "Grounding and shielding techniques" Ralph Morrison
Cheers,

Planes or satellites do not get power from mains wires carrying a lot of noise, IMHO the analogy can not be applied to our systems, as explained in the book you refer. And they still ask us to switch off our equipment at critical moments ... BTW, the last edition of the book explains what changed in the EMI/RFI noise in the last twenty years and its consequences. We should also remember that most of us are not considering carrying modifications to the grounding of the equipment we own.

 

[microstrip]

I think you should do a post on audio safety, and hopefully that can become a sticky. This should be about safety and not about sonic benefits of the risks taken

Not easy, considering this is a multi-country forum with different electrical codes and different mains distribution systems and grounding practices.

Safety always has statistical side - no system is 100% safe. What is an acceptable risk easily becomes an endless flamed debate - even ore than digital versus analog! One thing is sure - anyone removing grounding pins, GFCI breakers or changing fuses for non certified fuses should ask the advice of someone he trusts with expertise in the area.

 

[Lagonda]

Not easy, considering this is a multi-country forum with different electrical codes and different mains distribution systems and grounding practices.

Safety always has statistical side - no system is 100% safe. What is an acceptable risk easily becomes an endless flamed debate - even ore than digital versus analog! One thing is sure - anyone removing grounding pins, GFCI breakers or changing fuses for non certified fuses should ask the advice of someone he trusts with expertise in the area.

Considering that a lot of
audio gear, and other power hungry gear is plugged into regular outlets with
no ground wires all over the world, the risk is probably not that high.

 

[Stacore]

There is no need for a reference to the mother Earth for a hum free operation, only potential differences between various system parts matter. Noise or not in the power lines is another matter (imagine you have your own super clean diesel generator). I was running my system without any ground reference for a long time with v good results. Switching of any transmitting equipment in the planes has nothing to do here as it concerns free air propagation that might interfere with the plane's receivers.

Cheers,

Planes or satellites do not get power from mains wires carrying a lot of noise, IMHO the analogy can not be applied to our systems, as explained in the book you refer. And they still ask us to switch off our equipment at critical moments ... BTW, the last edition of the book explains what changed in the EMI/RFI noise in the last twenty years and its consequences. We should also remember that most of us are not considering carrying modifications to the grounding of the equipment we own.

 

[Tango]

My dog seems happy with the sound. No hum. No hiss. Space quiet. Thanks to no ground pin on both amps and preamps. Oh..32 watts are much more than enough for my speakers.



Tang

 

[Lagonda]

My dog seems happy with the sound. No hum. No hiss. Space quiet. Thanks to no ground pin on both amps and preamps. Oh..32 watts are much more than enough for my speakers.

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Tang

Ok Tang, your dog likes Lamm, now what is your initial impression ?

 

[microstrip]

There is no need for a reference to the mother Earth for a hum free operation, only potential differences between various system parts matter. Noise or not in the power lines is another matter (imagine you have your own super clean diesel generator). I was running my system without any ground reference for a long time with v good results. Switching of any transmitting equipment in the planes has nothing to do here as it concerns free air propagation that might interfere with the plane's receivers.

Cheers,

Unfortunately most of us so not own generators and depend on mains, and equipment must be earthed by safety and legal reasons. This is the real situation of our systems and their hum problems. Power transformers have leakage currents with humming components and mains neutral is connected to ground. All this makes than in real life earthing and the quality of the earth connection makes a difference in the signals and the sound quality.

No piece of equipment connected to mains is completely floating - so this imaginary situation does not apply unless we have an all floating batteries operated system.

 

[bonzo75]

Unfortunately most of us so not own generators and depend on mains, and equipment must be earthed by safety and legal reasons. This is the real situation of our systems and their hum problems. Power transformers have leakage currents with humming components and mains neutral is connected to ground. All this makes than in real life earthing and the quality of the earth connection makes a difference in the signals and the sound quality.

No piece of equipment connected to mains is completely floating - so this imaginary situation does not apply unless we have an all floating batteries operated system.

So what happens if we have a power generator for the equipment?

 

[microstrip]

My dog seems happy with the sound. No hum. No hiss. Space quiet. Thanks to no ground pin on both amps and preamps. Oh..32 watts are much more than enough for my speakers.

View attachment 48928
View attachment 48929
Tang

Great pictures - can I ask what are signal and speaker cables? - I think I have guessed what are the power cables!

 

[bonzo75]

Oh..32 watts are much more than enough for my speakers.

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View attachment 48929
Tang

You must be using Odin cables

 

[microstrip]

So what happens if we have a power generator for the equipment?

It is supposed to be almost noise free and can be used in floating mode - you will not have noise inducing leakage currents. Livingvoice is known to carry such system to shows. Some time ago people referred to the StrompTank - it looks to be a promising item, although expensive and extremely bulky.

 

[bonzo75]

It is supposed to be almost noise free and can be used in floating mode - you will not have noise inducing leakage currents. Livingvoice is known to carry such system to shows. Some time ago people referred to the StrompTank - it looks to be a promising item, although expensive and extremely bulky.

I think @Tbzc tried the Stromtank

 

[Tango]

Ok Tang, your dog likes Lamm, now what is your initial impression ?

Micro told me unless the gears are at their full potential, I better not say anything.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[Tango]

Great pictures - can I ask what are signal and speaker cables? - I think I have guessed what are the power cables!

Kuro. The Kuro strengths are super clarity, very open airy, outstanding nuance and high is a cousin to tape. Gian can tell if I am wrong.

Tang

 

[adyc]

It is supposed to be almost noise free and can be used in floating mode - you will not have noise inducing leakage currents. Livingvoice is known to carry such system to shows. Some time ago people referred to the StrompTank - it looks to be a promising item, although expensive and extremely bulky.

How about another way is to use panel mounted isolation transformer like Equitech or Torus for audio system. In this case, the audio system is isolated from the rest of the household and one can float the whole audio system. For safety, maybe, one can put a ground rod into the garden and connect the ground of the audio system to this ground rod.

I haven’t heard Stromtank before. But in general, I don’t like battery power system. The internal impedance maybe high. It negates their benefits.

 

[Steve Williams]

It would be great if you describe what equipment you ground and what you float.

Since I switched to an entire loom of Masterbuilt Ultra cable everything is grounded. I don't float anything I can say there was a time when I was using all Shunyata cable with Triton and Typhon in my system. The Triton did have the ability to use grounding cables in a Star grounding fashion. Caelin sent grounding cables for me to try. When I did the opposite happened......I developed a huge ground loop hum that disappeared when they were removed. Caelin told me that Lamm gear is built like a Sherman tank and didn't require central grounding.