American Sound AS-2000 Installations- Far East (Tango)
- Thread starter ddk
- Start date
I agree with this. When we like a product for particular reasons, we like that product for those reasons!
There is no guarantee whatsoever — I’m not even sure there should be a presumption — that we necessarily are going to like the new and “improved” version better than the current version we know we like.
I know I like the ZYX UNIverse Premium. I’m not terribly interested in investigating the new diamond stylus version.
I know I like the Aesthetix Io Eclipse. I’m not terribly interested in investigating the new Metis phono stage.
Last edited:
I don't think so either, but I'm fishing for some ideas on what would make people happy... It appears somewhat like the answer is simply there's a grieving process and that's all there is to it.
First I would like to make myself clear, I was mentioning CH only because Gian got me to think of this issue. I was not saying CH comes out with new best often. Their M1 has been out what? 5 years? That is not short and trust me I understand the business aspect of it. My thought of pricing model remain as I said for all brands for super expensive top of the line model though.
How soon is soon. To me 1-2 years is too soon for the top of the line, the best of the brand, not the trigger down models which I do understand. Imo if you can break through your best within1-2 years it means you werent so thorough with your initial design at the first place. Thomas Mayer is different. He positions his brand as a customized brand. He gives you menu. You pick what you want in his menu and he makes it. And you tell him what your speakers are he would advise or even make his amps to better fit your speakers. If one sees the General or Bill using Thomas Mayer amps successfully, don't quickly jump to conclusion to buy the same model that they are using.
Kind regards,
Tang
Huh??? Not sure why you are saying that. Which new materials are you referring to? I am using copper and silver transformers since many years. Yes of course I keep refining things but this does not make say a 5 year old phono or linestage obsolete.
The only new product I introduced this year was a DAC which was missing from my lineup before. Sometimes customers request certain tubes or topologies and if it makes sense and fits my philosophy I develop and build it
Best regards
Thomas
You’re analogous to other companies offering different levels, and developing/offering new/adavncements as available. But the difference is no one is buggering you about anything.
I don’t think that that any products go “obsolete” like they should no longer be used, but that is the feeling people seem to be expressing when they are stressed over not having the latest and greatest.
If you offer an Ultimate version that previously didn’t exist, is it refinement or new product? What’s the difference? It seems it depends whom you are, as to how people feel about it.
Hi Folsom,
I still dont understand why you see it this way.
For example my 'ultimate' linestage is unchanged in terms of materials since its introduction in 2015 and no intention to change it.
My phono stages are similarly stable in terms of revisions . Over the years different power amps joined the line up with different tubes. The latest being the 46. And for me it was only natural to explore various circuit topologies with this tube which I have used with other tubes before.
And with a tube factory at hand there is also the possibility to utilise it to explore new ways of doing things. Whats wrong with that? Should manufacturers stop coming out with new things? As you develop and build equipment you learn along the way and it is only natural to feed such experience back into the products
I rarely get the impression that customers who have gear from me get the itch to change it just because I come out with something new
Best regards
Thomas
I still dont understand why you see it this way.
For example my 'ultimate' linestage is unchanged in terms of materials since its introduction in 2015 and no intention to change it.
My phono stages are similarly stable in terms of revisions . Over the years different power amps joined the line up with different tubes. The latest being the 46. And for me it was only natural to explore various circuit topologies with this tube which I have used with other tubes before.
And with a tube factory at hand there is also the possibility to utilise it to explore new ways of doing things. Whats wrong with that? Should manufacturers stop coming out with new things? As you develop and build equipment you learn along the way and it is only natural to feed such experience back into the products
I rarely get the impression that customers who have gear from me get the itch to change it just because I come out with something new
Best regards
Thomas
Yes it is not reasonable at all to accuse Mayer of this philosophy. I am also fairly sure that if one wanted to have their amp upgraded to silver transformers, it can be done (if willing to pay).
There are, however, examples out there where this pervasive change to the product occurs sometimes on a 6 monthly basis never mind a 2 yearly. I am not citing examples because I don’t want to cause offence but Mayer is not an example of this practice.
There are, however, examples out there where this pervasive change to the product occurs sometimes on a 6 monthly basis never mind a 2 yearly. I am not citing examples because I don’t want to cause offence but Mayer is not an example of this practice.
Perhaps that's the extra secret sauce, people don't see the flavor changes in other manufacturers like they do with different types of tubes - if it's SS it's all the same either better or worse? But the tubes do still have a hierarchy in a dollar figure.
I agree that there is no reason we designers should ever want to stop exploration. To me it seems like the perception is a bigger difference than how different companies are in these regards. Maybe naming a new product after the old one isn't the best choice for these other manufactures.
Maybe another problem is people were not ultimately as happy with their gear no matter what they tried to feel about it - which doesn't appear to be an affliction anyone you know with your gear has. Maybe people that like flea watts & high sensitivity speakers just view things different in general?
I like flea watts and high sensitivity but I also like high power and inefficient speakers too.
I have literally no idea what you mean with the points you are making (sorry I am not being an arse just I can’t decipher what you have written) so can’t assist with a response.
That isn’t really how a forum works, Folsom. Normally if you don’t want to hear an opinion of anyone else then you pm.
No need to be aggressive and rude. I can see Thomas also can’t understand your statements either hence the attempted intervention.
Now I have no idea what you're saying about PM's or whatever. I encourage you to ask questions, as you seem to be repeating statements that aren't really on topic - they're just trying to defend Thomas's products from something? Admiration? I don't really know what you're getting at.
If you think Mayer is really objectively different than other companies, I'm all ears (eyes) for the point of view. Clearly my perception is that objectively he isn't particularly different except in perception - which includes his own. And I don't think fabled mentioned of unnamed companies are really relevant or useful... Are we generating boogiemen to avoid discussing a challenging topic? And I think this entire mini-topic is about perception; you really can't separate it out because of facts you think have universal implication - how you feel about the "facts" is as much perception as how someone feels about (perceives) product releases.
If you think Mayer is really objectively different than other companies, I'm all ears (eyes) for the point of view. Clearly my perception is that objectively he isn't particularly different except in perception - which includes his own. And I don't think fabled mentioned of unnamed companies are really relevant or useful... Are we generating boogiemen to avoid discussing a challenging topic? And I think this entire mini-topic is about perception; you really can't separate it out because of facts you think have universal implication - how you feel about the "facts" is as much perception as how someone feels about (perceives) product releases.
Okay here is my opinion with some *facts* why I believe his company is different but this is imho ymmv:
Do I believe that Mayer is objectively different from other companies?
Yes. I don’t know of ANY other company that does all of the following:
>> Designs custom products & solutions on request or custom alterations to the standard products
>> Owns a tube company (Elrog) that enables the invention of new tubes to optimise circuits (new 845)
>> Owns a huge stock of very rare nos tubes to support products using these tubes
>> Designs circuits / products using such unique tubes
>> Has a build quality that is superior to almost anything else out there - imho ymmv
Why do I not want to accuse companies publicly of repetitious updates to their products?
>> It isn’t a battle that I wish to fight. I have no horse in this race not being financially involved in the industry. Also I personally don’t think it is the way I wish to conduct myself but ymmv. That said, I am sure collectively we know of many situations where this occurs.
Yesterday, I received another Master Signature but with 1.1 mV from ddk. I think the difference in sound from my 0.5mV will be insignificant but let's see. The Master Sig that I have been playing now has more than 300 hrs I will send it to look at. But not that there is anything wrong with it. In fact I wish to say at 300 hrs it has the highest transparency of any carts I tried. Beat the Opus1 on this regard. Also I ordered three pairs of Telefunken 12AX7 smooth plate to try with my EMT phono. Thanks to our forum member Ovenmitt, he tried both the Telefunken and Mazda with his EMT phono and told me there is a big fish of improvement. If the Telefunken works well I will get some Mazda for my other Phono for a flavor.
Tang
Tang
Well I think that's where we're different. I haven't made a claim that I think updates to products or new releases are a bad thing - which I believe you've been describing them as. And so I've been trying to have some discussion as to why it may be seen as bad or not seen/seen as acceptable. All of your appreciable points about Thomas's business are clearly ones that sway opinion away from negative light. Thomas's comments, and ones like yours, and my own admiration, are the prompt to ask questions such as if tubes as flavors are a dissuasive way out of being perceived to have negative connotation (pick one). I simply don't think my admiration alone is merit to understand immunity from impunity - discussion may be enlightening.
But yes, I did say that maybe shortened frequencies of changes might be inadvisable based on how to reception appears. Which then comes to, if there are exceptions, why?
Last edited:
Similar threads
