Are we hurting our ears with clean power?

[spiritofmusic]

A few years back I bought an Audio Black Shadow 845 that had all sorts of issues. I spend thousands and it still has issues. Last week while testing an idea on behind the wall wires, I reinserted my Black Shadows. I was pleasantly surprised with the results. I actually much prefer the Black Shadow over the Dartzeel for a number of reasons. BUT. I am highly aware the Dartzeel stomps the Black Shadow into the dirt when it comes to noise levels. I am very aware there are odd order harmonics with the Black Shadow that are limiting how much volume I can push the system with. The use of stranded behind the wall wire as well as a Torus isolation transformer have knocked down some noise, and smoothed over some levels of heard harshness. The harsh is still there, but to a much lesser extent and really only presents itself when the volume is turned up past pleasant listening levels.

Contrast that to my interactions with the Dartzeel. The Dartzeel is very quiet. I believe it has very low distortions levels. Compare .05% to the 1.5% or more in the Audion. I have no idea if the harmonics in either are even/odd or where they lay and at what levels. But it is obvious the Dartzeel is much less overall. The Atmasphere Class D Monoblocks are even lower. What this means is I am able to turn my volume up much higher with the Dartzeel/Atmasphere amps. As in a lot higher. And I don't feel any at the moment fatigue. But am I impacting my hearing now. A low level odd order harmonic is sensed as irritating keeping you from turning up the overall volume. I am probably no where near levels that are damaging to my hearing. A very clean amp with low distortions that allows me to really crank the music loud on the other hand is hitting levels of output that are knows to damage hearing. I have left a few audiophile homes who use very clean SS amps and I am noise sensitive for days after. The same happened last weekend when I had friends over for a listen. I got the Dartzeel too worked up and for about 3 days after I did not play music and about a week before I did not feel sensitized to it.

So, are we chasing this goal of super low level distortion levels, only to find we are damaging the one sense that is critical for enjoying audio playback.

I've always wondered what Taiko Emile's hearing must be like w superclean Audionet Heisenbergs that go from zero to infinity, vanishingly low distortion Extreme and open window dynamics Alsyvox ribbons.
Maybe he's more bat than human.

 

[nirodha]

I am unclear about this concept of “clean” sound. I would’ve thought that the clean sound allows you to turn down the volume because you can hear things more easily.

Or is the point that the prior “dirty” sound was harsh and bright and edgy, and so with the clean sound you can listen louder without fatigue?

It is a paradox, but the ultralow noisefloor enables me to do both: very low ánd very high volume playback

 

[morricab]

I fiddled with the setup and took more measurements.
With my phone db app, at normal listening volumes with either the 845 or the Dartzeel, my peek volume at my chair, about 7 feet from speaker hit 76 db.

On average, the high points of music were between 55 db and 65 db.

My ampacity meter set to .000 measured peak ampacity from a speaker cable as .12 amps on the woofer and .067 on the mid/horn. I am not breaking 1/5 of a watt total at my prefered listening level.

I moved my speakers. This had a large affect. The amps are so different in totality, a speaker adjustment was necessary. This brought a much better balance to the sound. More even and less beaming.

I changed a driver tube. Also a pleasant change. A tad more smooth with less glass sound.
The 845 is an Elrog.

I analyzed source more closely what am I feeding as a signal.

I don't want to start a pissing match, but here are some impressions.

The source is critical. My digital on a whole is more lean than my vinyl. I can play the vinyl a lot longer than the digital.

Either source I am highly aware the quality of the recording with the 845. If its not excellent, it's annoying.

Here is the fighting words. The 845 is head and shoulders, way past the Dartzeel when it comes to instruments being real and believable. I am gobsmacked and shocked at what I hear. So much so, I could only handle the Dartzeel for 15 minutes or so and I wanted it out of my system.

Yet the persistent (something) continues to exist with the 845. I was sitting last night with the music very low. About 45 db. Maybe a 50 db peak. I had a wav digital file on my harddrive of a decent recoding I like in the background. After about 10 minutes the sound was agitating me and I had to get up and click my preamp 3 notch down. I think that is 2.25db. WTF.

I honestly don't know if its distortion or something else. I don't know why this would happen, but maybe the timing is smeared. While very clear with amazing decay, I almost struggle a little to decider what I hear. And frequency peaks. I was shocked how much speaker placement influenced the sound. I have read serious pissing match here that an amp when reviewed should never be accompanied by speaker repositioning. Well, I'm her to tell you, these 2 amps like the speakers in different locations.

My next task would be to try a Umik 1 mic and measure the frequency response. I may have some steep peaks in the top end. The playback strikes me as hard, a little glassy, very dynamic. Probably tilted up in frequency response.

My thread was around how loud I can play with the Dartzeel. My prefered db is about 55 to 65 db average with peaks to 76 db. When I had guests over or get worked into a mood, I am pushing the Dartzeel to peaks I assume in the 80s. I didn't try this yraterday, but I have played plenty about 5 clicks higher on my preamp which are 3/4 db per click. So 3.75 db higher.

Very interesting observations; however, I don't think those SPL levels are true levels. STill useful for relative comparisons but those can't possibly be the true SPL peaks...I guess it must be higher than that.

I would propose you try a different brand of SET at a similar power and see if it has the same downsides as the Audion...it might be that amp specific...plus isn't yours rather heavily modded? Is it possible that they are not putting out the power they are rated at?

 

[Ron Resnick]

I fiddled with the setup and took more measurements.
With my phone db app, at normal listening volumes with either the 845 or the Dartzeel, my peek volume at my chair, about 7 feet from speaker hit 76 db.

On average, the high points of music were between 55 db and 65 db.

Thank you for reporting your experiences, Rex!


I'm a little perplexed about something. For me personally 55dB to 65dB would not get me anywhere near a volume which achieves some suspension of disbelief. My typical listening range is 75dB to 80dB up to to 90dB+ on peaks.

Are you finding that you achieve suspension of disbelief and emotional engagement at 55dB to 65dB?

 

[Blackmorec]

I fiddled with the setup and took more measurements.
With my phone db app, at normal listening volumes with either the 845 or the Dartzeel, my peek volume at my chair, about 7 feet from speaker hit 76 db.

On average, the high points of music were between 55 db and 65 db.

My ampacity meter set to .000 measured peak ampacity from a speaker cable as .12 amps on the woofer and .067 on the mid/horn. I am not breaking 1/5 of a watt total at my prefered listening level.

I moved my speakers. This had a large affect. The amps are so different in totality, a speaker adjustment was necessary. This brought a much better balance to the sound. More even and less beaming.

I changed a driver tube. Also a pleasant change. A tad more smooth with less glass sound.
The 845 is an Elrog.

I analyzed source more closely what am I feeding as a signal.

I don't want to start a pissing match, but here are some impressions.

The source is critical. My digital on a whole is more lean than my vinyl. I can play the vinyl a lot longer than the digital.

Either source I am highly aware the quality of the recording with the 845. If its not excellent, it's annoying.

Here is the fighting words. The 845 is head and shoulders, way past the Dartzeel when it comes to instruments being real and believable. I am gobsmacked and shocked at what I hear. So much so, I could only handle the Dartzeel for 15 minutes or so and I wanted it out of my system.

Yet the persistent (something) continues to exist with the 845. I was sitting last night with the music very low. About 45 db. Maybe a 50 db peak. I had a wav digital file on my harddrive of a decent recoding I like in the background. After about 10 minutes the sound was agitating me and I had to get up and click my preamp 3 notch down. I think that is 2.25db. WTF.

I honestly don't know if its distortion or something else. I don't know why this would happen, but maybe the timing is smeared. While very clear with amazing decay, I almost struggle a little to decider what I hear. And frequency peaks. I was shocked how much speaker placement influenced the sound. I have read serious pissing match here that an amp when reviewed should never be accompanied by speaker repositioning. Well, I'm her to tell you, these 2 amps like the speakers in different locations.

My next task would be to try a Umik 1 mic and measure the frequency response. I may have some steep peaks in the top end. The playback strikes me as hard, a little glassy, very dynamic. Probably tilted up in frequency response.

My thread was around how loud I can play with the Dartzeel. My prefered db is about 55 to 65 db average with peaks to 76 db. When I had guests over or get worked into a mood, I am pushing the Dartzeel to peaks I assume in the 80s. I didn't try this yraterday, but I have played plenty about 5 clicks higher on my preamp which are 3/4 db per click. So 3.75 db higher.

Let’s imagine you are sitting in a symphony concert in a really good seat in maybe the 6th, 7th or 8th row centre. Take note of the sound Now move to the back of the hall. How does that sound? Finally step outside until the sound level drops to 45dB. How does it sound now?
Essentially what’s happening as you increase the distance is that the absolute amplitude of the orchestra is dropping so that the sound level ratio of your local environment to orchestra is constantly dropping to eventually get to 1: 1 or worse. But that means that as the orchestra falls in volume it is replaced by your local environment, which probably has a fairly constant average sound level. Your local environment masks the orchestral detail. Essentially as your orchestra S:N goes down, your local goes up, so orchestral resolution falls and local resolution increases.
In a listening room that’s not what’s happening. Your local environment is far quieter, so your signal to noise ratio is far higher. In your listening room you can hear what’s going on with the music to a much more sensitive degree than you can at a live event.
And what you hear is that as you drop the volume, some of the low level detail becomes inaudible. Its not loud enough for you to distinguish so it effectively disappears, but its energy is still there, even though its insufficient to allow resolution by the brain, the energy is still there and you ‘hear it‘ as part of other energy….and when you add that ‘subconcious“ energy to the main signal, that addition is audible. There’s a difference between not hearing and not making something out as a separate entity. It’s called resolution. The ability to resolve quiet from loud, or slightly different timing, small tonal shifts, phase shifts . In frequencies, when one thing masks another, it’s only masking it from a ’hearing’ point of view. The soundwaves themselves are still present and mix together like different tones of paint, so what you can’t differentiate but can still hear colours the tone and blurs the edges of the music
Imagine this. Take just the exclusive signal generated by those lost details, without all the masking frequencies. Absent the masking frequencies you can now hear many perfectly. Then gradually reintroduce the masking frequencies and what happens? You can imagine hearing how the ‘lost details’ mix with and modulate the actual sound. Eventually you will no longer pick out the sounds as separate, but you will now realise that their contribution is still there, in terms of how your brain is now processing the total resolved plus unresolved information.
So back to your 45dB sound being off…..there’s simply a lot of stuff your ears are no longer resolving and that stuff is making it sound bad, because it should be present and separated and therefore more balanced and isnt so it actually works as noise. In the ‘live’ World, the low level stuff is being replaced by the local environment and its the natural local environment that modulates the orchestral ‘signal’. Bass is an interesting example. When bass suddenly falls off a cliff with volume, it’s not the amp and speakers that are ‘beach bound’. For the most part its the response of your ears They loose sensitivity when certain frequencies fall below certain amplitudes, which is why your amp may have a completely flat frequency response at virtually all amplitudes yet ‘apparently’ looses bass when you turn it right down.

The above is one reason ‘live’ doesn't sound or feel like recorded because their realities are so different. It’s also why recorded music has a close to ideal listening volume at which most of the quietest detail gets resolved by the ears and brain and its why low levels start to sound poor. Of course, the removal of noise, the improvement of timing and the overall improvement of all physical layer aspects of the network, removes a lot of barriers to the brain’s ability to resolve small differences and thereby build a more complete picture. The cleaner the system, the quieter it can become before low level detail can no longer be resolved by the brain.

 

[wil]

Thank you for reporting your experiences, Rex!


I'm a little perplexed about something. For me personally 55dB to 65dB would not get me anywhere near a volume which to achieves some suspension of disbelief. My typical listening range is 75dB to 80dB up to to 90dB+ on peaks.

Are you finding that you achieve suspension of disbelief and emotional engagement at 55dB to 65dB?

@Kingrex, That sounds way too low! Are you using A weight or C weight? The A weight will be 5db too low for music measuring purposes.And which iPhone app are you using?

 

[Blackmorec]

I've always wondered what Taiko Emile's hearing must be like w superclean Audionet Heisenbergs that go from zero to infinity, vanishingly low distortion Extreme and open window dynamics Alsyvox ribbons.
Maybe he's more bat than human.

The better a system gets, the more profound the insights it can generate. What it then takes is for someone to actually have, understand and action those insights.

 

[Solypsa]

@Blackmorec what a well written post. Thanks.

@Kingrex did you try the Audion on the coax only and either your Dart or the Atma amp on the woofers? Without a focus on synergy, I only wonder if the nature of the Audion shifts when driving an easier load, as heard in the midrange up?

 

[Al M.]

I like the “db meter” phone app. It provides 3 simultaneous read outs: current db, peak db and average db. You don’t have push buttons to see the different readouts.

It reads about 5 db higher than my dedicated meter, but it’s consistent, so no problem.

As far as @Al M. using A Weighted, I thought C weight should be used for music measuring?

For assessing risk with respect to hearing damage the dBa scale is preferred. Reasons are given in this document (a relatively short read):

https://sps.honeywell.com/content/dam/honeywell-edam/sps/his/en-us/campaigns/us-hearing-conservation/documents/his-ac-weighted-noise-measurements.pdf

That must also be the reason why NIOSH specified risk levels are in dBa:

Facts & Statistics, Charts & Graphs - Noise | NIOSH | CDC

Graphic: How to "look" at noise: intensity comparisons with NIOSH recommended possible exposure time.

www.cdc.gov

 

[Atmasphere]

I am unclear about this concept of “clean” sound. I would’ve thought that the clean sound allows you to turn down the volume because you can hear things more easily.

Or is the point that the prior “dirty” sound was harsh and bright and edgy, and so with the clean sound you can listen louder without fatigue?

I've been telling people for many years that the mark of a good system that it doesn't sound loud, even when it is! To do that it has to be 'clean' which is to say lacking the kinds of distortion to which the ear is most sensitive, the higher ordered harmonics and IM. The ear uses the higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure, so if they are showing up (especially if not masked by either the 2nd or 3rd harmonic) the system can sound 'loud' and might also sound harsh.

Stehno made me rethink how I have phrased what I have said. Maybe its more correct to ASK, why is the SET glorious and wonderful at moderate and below level, but hits me with a hard stop when I start to turn it up.

Is it distortions in the amp?
Is it a misbalance or something not dialed in between the amp/speaker/preamp?
Is it maybe just bad frequency response that is causing my horn tweeter to beam at me? Or possibly be playing way louder than I think in a narrow frequency.

I think I need to buy an affordable db meter on Amazon. My real concern is my ears. Last time I checked I had excellent hearing. I would like to keep it that way.

SETs sound great at lower levels. I've been telling people this for years now. If you really want to find out what they do, use a speaker that is efficient enough that the amp is never asked to make more than about 20-25% of full power (-6dB of full power). At higher power levels the higher ordered harmonics show up and things are not as pleasant. At first they only show up on transients (where the power is), lending the amp a 'dynamic' presentation, but that is because our ears are sensing sound pressure on the transients.

There are good apps for smartphones that work pretty well as sound pressure level meters, until you exceed 105dB. There are also spectrum analyzers that work pretty well too. Radio Shack made a decent sound level pressure meter years ago; if you want one let me know- seems I have one laying around.

I find that if the system is dialed in properly then there's no good way to know how loud its playing unless I try to be heard over the music by someone sitting next to me, or if I have a sound pressure level meter. To do this the room has to be sorted, you have to have good vibration control, good digital, properly set up analog, electronics that do not generate unmasked higher ordered harmonics and finally no breakups in the loudspeakers. If any one of these things isn't right, at some volume level the system will sound loud or become irritating.

AC power of course is a variable, but if your electronics uses good regulation and high amounts of feedback it will be much more immune to AC line problems (one of the more pesky being the 5th harmonic which can really mess with power transformers, rectifiers and synchronous motors which might be in a tape machine or turntable.

 

[Kingrex]

@Blackmorec what a well written post. Thanks.

@Kingrex did you try the Audion on the coax only and either your Dart or the Atma amp on the woofers? Without a focus on synergy, I only wonder if the nature of the Audion shifts when driving an easier load, as heard in the midrange up?

I have tried the Dartzeel and Atmasphere together. I can not get the Audion to play friendly with the other amps. There is a very loud ground loop when I try and biamp.
The Dartzeel and Atmasphere biamp horizontally just fine. I really don't hear a change in the overall musicality much when either stand alone or biamped.

 

[Kingrex]

I've been telling people for many years that the mark of a good system that it doesn't sound loud, even when it is! To do that it has to be 'clean' which is to say lacking the kinds of distortion to which the ear is most sensitive, the higher ordered harmonics and IM. The ear uses the higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure, so if they are showing up (especially if not masked by either the 2nd or 3rd harmonic) the system can sound 'loud' and might also sound harsh.

This is exactly what I have been trying to say. Or exactly what I am sensing. What a bugger. I really like the presentation, but I cant live with the faults. And there is probably no way to rid the amp of them. Which is what you told me when I first got the amps. You said throw them out and cut your losses. And did I listen, NO. It has become and expensive lesson. Listen to Ralph.

I find that if the system is dialed in properly then there's no good way to know how loud its playing unless I try to be heard over the music by someone sitting next to me, or if I have a sound pressure level meter. To do this the room has to be sorted, you have to have good vibration control, good digital, properly set up analog, electronics that do not generate unmasked higher ordered harmonics and finally no breakups in the loudspeakers. If any one of these things isn't right, at some volume level the system will sound loud or become irritating.

I'm not fully sure what your saying here. Especially the "electronics that do not generate unmasked higher ordered harmonics". Are you saying a SPL meter will tell you the level is not that loud, but the harmonic is tricking you into believing its louder than it is. Or does the harmonic have an affect on the meters ability itself to accuratly reflect the true SPL in the room.


Also Ralph, distortion and harmonics are not the same thing, are they? This is a published spec on a SET
Wide-band hum and noise less than 100 micro-volts. (with various tube sets this can vary, our lab tests have been as low as 70 micro-volts).
This does not tell me anything about harmonics or whether they are there and "masked" or not. Does it?

I just noticed this on the website of a SET I am looking at.

• 2nd harmonic down – 42 dB at 1 watt, 3rd harmonic – 74 dB, 4th -89 dB (5th and on not measurable, below the limits of our spectrum analyzer )
• Bandwidth +/- 1 dB 15 Hz –31 KHz +/- 3 dB 7 Hz-58 KHz (Phase shift in audio pass band less than 2 degrees)

I am assuming these are very good specs? Or does he need a better analyzer.

 

[Atmasphere]

Are you saying a SPL meter will tell you the level is not that loud, but the harmonic is tricking you into believing its louder than it is

^^ This!

Also Ralph, distortion and harmonics are not the same thing, are they? This is a published spec on a SET
Wide-band hum and noise less than 100 micro-volts. (with various tube sets this can vary, our lab tests have been as low as 70 micro-volts).
This does not tell me anything about harmonics or whether they are there and "masked" or not. Does it?

When I'm referring to masking in this regard, the 2nd or 3rd harmonic has to be significant enough that its able to mask the higher orders that cause harshness. If they are unmasked its a good bet the sound is harsher too.
The bit you have in quotes is referring to the noise floor of the amp and is unrelated.

 

[morricab]

This is exactly what I have been trying to say. Or exactly what I am sensing. What a bugger. I really like the presentation, but I cant live with the faults. And there is probably no way to rid the amp of them. Which is what you told me when I first got the amps. You said throw them out and cut your losses. And did I listen, NO. It has become and expensive lesson. Listen to Ralph.

I'm not fully sure what your saying here. Especially the "electronics that do not generate unmasked higher ordered harmonics". Are you saying a SPL meter will tell you the level is not that loud, but the harmonic is tricking you into believing its louder than it is. Or does the harmonic have an affect on the meters ability itself to accuratly reflect the true SPL in the room.


Also Ralph, distortion and harmonics are not the same thing, are they? This is a published spec on a SET
Wide-band hum and noise less than 100 micro-volts. (with various tube sets this can vary, our lab tests have been as low as 70 micro-volts).
This does not tell me anything about harmonics or whether they are there and "masked" or not. Does it?

I just noticed this on the website of a SET I am looking at.

• 2nd harmonic down – 42 dB at 1 watt, 3rd harmonic – 74 dB, 4th -89 dB (5th and on not measurable, below the limits of our spectrum analyzer )
• Bandwidth +/- 1 dB 15 Hz –31 KHz +/- 3 dB 7 Hz-58 KHz (Phase shift in audio pass band less than 2 degrees)

I am assuming these are very good specs? Or does he need a better

-42dB is about 1% distortion…so not amazing at 1 watt. At 10 watts it would like my be a lot better.
For comparison, the Aries Cerat Genus (either 813 based or 845 based) is specified as having at 1 watt -64dB (0.1%) 2nd order and -73dB 3rd.

The Amplifon SET 42 se has similar distortion to the Aries Cerat and gets a full 35 watts at 1% THD.

 

[Kingrex]

I put the Atmasphere mono back in, turned them on and walked away for a couple hours. I came back and started to make dinner. I had some background music playing. After a while I called my wife, then sat and sipped on some wine and listened. I immediately noticed how I relaxed. I was able to calm down and enjoy the song. A female singer and keyboard. It made me very aware how whatever the interaction between my SET and tube amp while glorious in tone, is so agitating. I can't have that. Thats a hard stop for me.

 

[Holmz]

I am unclear about this concept of “clean” sound. I would’ve thought that the clean sound allows you to turn down the volume because you can hear things more easily.

Sometimes a System can sound “quiet”, and I usually pull out the iphone and check the SPL app.
And I get shocked when it is higher that I would have expected.

It is usually easier to stumble into this when the music is up, but not obnoxiously so, and one finds that they cannot hold a conversation.
Or one leaves the listening room for another room, and finds it is pretty loud outside of the listening room.
That is a clue that it was louder than one would have expected.

It (a system) basically can have a quieter sound at the same measured SPL when the higher harmonics are not there providing the cue/clue. And this is at the same measured SPL.

Or is the point that the prior “dirty” sound was harsh and bright and edgy, and so with the clean sound you can listen louder without fatigue?

The point is that the bright/edgy aspect makes us know it is loud, and without the higher harmonics we do not sense it as being loud.
It may or may not be more of less fatiguing, but it is easier to keep moving the volume know up thinking “it could be louder”, or thinking ”it is not loud enough”.

In terms of the post question of, “Are we hurting our ears…” the answer is maybe.
I have the NIOSH app on the iPhone and iPad and tend to use it and the volume knob as a way to keep it reasonable.

 

[Al M.]

I fiddled with the setup and took more measurements.
With my phone db app, at normal listening volumes with either the 845 or the Dartzeel, my peek volume at my chair, about 7 feet from speaker hit 76 db.

On average, the high points of music were between 55 db and 65 db.

My ampacity meter set to .000 measured peak ampacity from a speaker cable as .12 amps on the woofer and .067 on the mid/horn. I am not breaking 1/5 of a watt total at my prefered listening level.

I moved my speakers. This had a large affect. The amps are so different in totality, a speaker adjustment was necessary. This brought a much better balance to the sound. More even and less beaming.

I changed a driver tube. Also a pleasant change. A tad more smooth with less glass sound.
The 845 is an Elrog.

I analyzed source more closely what am I feeding as a signal.

I don't want to start a pissing match, but here are some impressions.

The source is critical. My digital on a whole is more lean than my vinyl. I can play the vinyl a lot longer than the digital.

Either source I am highly aware the quality of the recording with the 845. If its not excellent, it's annoying.

Here is the fighting words. The 845 is head and shoulders, way past the Dartzeel when it comes to instruments being real and believable. I am gobsmacked and shocked at what I hear. So much so, I could only handle the Dartzeel for 15 minutes or so and I wanted it out of my system.

Yet the persistent (something) continues to exist with the 845. I was sitting last night with the music very low. About 45 db. Maybe a 50 db peak. I had a wav digital file on my harddrive of a decent recoding I like in the background. After about 10 minutes the sound was agitating me and I had to get up and click my preamp 3 notch down. I think that is 2.25db. WTF.

I honestly don't know if its distortion or something else. I don't know why this would happen, but maybe the timing is smeared. While very clear with amazing decay, I almost struggle a little to decider what I hear. And frequency peaks. I was shocked how much speaker placement influenced the sound. I have read serious pissing match here that an amp when reviewed should never be accompanied by speaker repositioning. Well, I'm her to tell you, these 2 amps like the speakers in different locations.

My next task would be to try a Umik 1 mic and measure the frequency response. I may have some steep peaks in the top end. The playback strikes me as hard, a little glassy, very dynamic. Probably tilted up in frequency response.

My thread was around how loud I can play with the Dartzeel. My prefered db is about 55 to 65 db average with peaks to 76 db. When I had guests over or get worked into a mood, I am pushing the Dartzeel to peaks I assume in the 80s. I didn't try this yraterday, but I have played plenty about 5 clicks higher on my preamp which are 3/4 db per click. So 3.75 db higher.

As others have commented, those phone dB readouts must be way too low. When you really push it, it's in the 80s dB? And that's loud, and when you listen in other people's homes your ears are sensitized for days? Either your ears are overly sensitive (unlikely) or phone dB apps like the one you use suck even more that I thought they do (very likely).

That measured 80s dB is still way lower than the volume levels I listen at. Orchestral peaks are in my home at 95 dBa (about 100 dB; that's still lower than often in a concert hall). Jazz with its more constant volume levels is around 90 dBa peaks, or just a bit higher (if I listen to a whole jazz album at those louder peak levels, I do take a break afterwards). Even string quartets hit peaks of 90 dBa (though rarely), while mostly playing from below 80 dBs up to 85 - 87 dBa (I like my string quartet experience at a somewhat realistic level from a more up-close perspective, I listen less loudly to a string quartet recording made in reverberant acoustics). Compare all that with the NIOSH maximal exposure recommendations the link to which I posted earlier. I listen max for a few hours, never for a whole day at those levels.

But my measurements are with real SPL meters, not a crappy phone app.

 

[Al M.]

Instead of multiple cheap SPL meters, I recommend getting a Reed.

Thanks for the recommendation, Ron. I just ordered one from Amazon.

I am sure my SPL meters are not too far off (they check out with each other within a narrow range), but it's nice to have extra confidence in accuracy.

 

[Kingrex]

I'm ordering a.Reed too. I tried to plug a Minidsp Umik 1 mic in. Hard fail for me. I don't do understand a computer like a digital nomad. It seems my room resting noise level is 74 db with Mini DSP mic. Odd my wife and I can have a quiet conversation when its so loud.

 

[microstrip]

Thanks for the recommendation, Ron. I just ordered one from Amazon.

I am sure my SPL meters are not too far off (they check out with each other within a narrow range), but it's nice to have extra confidence in accuracy.

We can also buy an USB calibrated microphone and make much more complete measurements on loudness. See https://www.soundimports.eu/en/mini...lvw1FOYUtvjvHfRRbnX3Lvc6MZtc5EMYaAncxEALw_wcB