Are we hurting our ears with clean power?

[Kingrex]

We can also buy an USB calibrated microphone and make much more complete measurements on loudness. See https://www.soundimports.eu/en/mini...lvw1FOYUtvjvHfRRbnX3Lvc6MZtc5EMYaAncxEALw_wcB

I just tried this. It is not plug and play. Yes its way more flexible. You can even use the DSP to make your vinyl sound better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I could not make it work corectly and walked away. Others who find waking around software a pleasure will get much higher versatility. If you use a computer to read mail and surf the web, your going to be frustrated. If you love that stuff you can also see the peaks and dips in your room.

 

[microstrip]

I just tried this. It is not plug and play. Yes its way more flexible. You can even use the DSP to make your vinyl sound better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I could not make it work corectly and walked away. Others who find waking around software a pleasure will get much higher versatility. If you use a computer to read mail and surf the web, your going to be frustrated. If you love that stuff you can also see the peaks and dips in your room.

Probably you used a poor quality software or the microphone is faulty. In fact it should not be more complicated than installing and using a mobile phone soundmeter.

 

[LL21]

I am unclear about this concept of “clean” sound. I would’ve thought that the clean sound allows you to turn down the volume because you can hear things more easily.

Or is the point that the prior “dirty” sound was harsh and bright and edgy, and so with the clean sound you can listen louder without fatigue?

100% the case for us, Ron...agree. Two things needed to happen for the volume in our system to go DOWN:

- super low distortion
- extremely even, powerful bass along with a generally weighty 'foundational' music presentation.

With those two dynamics at work, my experience is you can gently pulsing-air bass at very very low levels (with an 8db gain preamp, I am talking 3-6 notches on a 50-notch preamp)...40db-45db of volume. Generally, I find that volume goes UP when you 'feel the need' to keep cranking because the 'oomf' is not there. By cranking, at first, the oomf naturally has gone up because the volume is louder and the bass is louder. But shortly thereafter when the ear realizes the BALANCE of the music is still not heavily weighted enough towards bass...one cranks it again.

The moment that the foundation of the music is weighty...that stops in my personal experience. Someone on this forum just stated that was their experience once they started using Gryphon amps which have that tonal and bass foundation and weight.

Naturally, the CLEARER the words, notes, nuances, the less one needs to crank to hear those details as well.

 

[DaveC]

@Kingrex it really sounds like either your SET amp is damaged or faulty in some way, or you're trying to use it with way too much speaker. I've found a SET is better on the lighter the moving mass it's trying to push, in my system I have a ~2g cone midrange and <1g tweeter diaphragm. If you're using it on larger woofers I think there's no way it's going to work well even if sensitivity is high, speaker specs don't tell the whole story and imo woofers need a low output impedance amp for good electrical damping. I use a class D amp for my woofers, but you need a class D that sounds more like a tube amp. My NCore amps have good woofer control but sound bad with my SET amp, believe it or not my Crown class D amp is surprisingly good. It would be unacceptable for mids and highs but it works well with my woofers. So I know D amps have potential and maybe I'll try an Atmosphere D amp someday. I'd look at your SET amp, they're simple and you really should be able to bi-amp with it, I have no issue biamping with my SET. SETs are superior imo, but only when paired with an appropriate speaker, I feel a lot of folks try to use them with speakers they are really unsuitable for. Very few people have bass solutions that are suitable, it takes a very large basshorn with a very light-coned woofer for it to make any sense, and almost nobody has that. For most home applications where space and money are limited, a SET amp just isn't a good match.

On the calibrated mic, I just got the Dayton Omnimic package, it's plug and play.

 

[Holmz]

<…>

But my measurements are with real SPL meters, not a crappy phone app.

I have a reed too… somewhere.
But I am not about to start prancing into a stereo shop with a reed in a holster.
And for a relative measurement an iphone works just fine for dB(A).

We can also compare an iPhone to a camera.
I would be the first to admit that a large format camera take better picture than an iphone, but if I have the reed in one hand, it is quicker to use an iPhone as a camera with one hand.

 

[Holmz]

100% the case for us, Ron...agree. Two things needed to happen for the volume in our system to go DOWN:

- super low distortion
- extremely even, powerful bass along with a generally weighty 'foundational' music presentation.

With those two dynamics at work, my experience is you can gently pulsing-air bass at very very low levels (with an 8db gain preamp, I am talking 3-6 notches on a 50-notch preamp)...40db-45db of volume. Generally, I find that volume goes UP when you 'feel the need' to keep cranking because the 'oomf' is not there. By cranking, at first, the oomf naturally has gone up because the volume is louder and the bass is louder. But shortly thereafter when the ear realizes the BALANCE of the music is still not heavily weighted enough towards bass...one cranks it again.

The moment that the foundation of the music is weighty...that stops in my personal experience. Someone on this forum just stated that was their experience once they started using Gryphon amps which have that tonal and bass foundation and weight.

Naturally, the CLEARER the words, notes, nuances, the less one needs to crank to hear those details as well.

I thought that the loudness switch was what people used to use for ^this^.

 

[LL21]

I thought that the loudness switch was what people used to use for ^this^.

Yes, I think that is right...but I have found that by doing it this way, there is genuinely no need for one. Yes, if we wish to crank it...it's thrilling. But actually, it is incredibly nuanced, detailed and also very powerful at low volumes.

 

[Al M.]

100% the case for us, Ron...agree. Two things needed to happen for the volume in our system to go DOWN:

- super low distortion
- extremely even, powerful bass along with a generally weighty 'foundational' music presentation.

With those two dynamics at work, my experience is you can gently pulsing-air bass at very very low levels (with an 8db gain preamp, I am talking 3-6 notches on a 50-notch preamp)...40db-45db of volume. Generally, I find that volume goes UP when you 'feel the need' to keep cranking because the 'oomf' is not there. By cranking, at first, the oomf naturally has gone up because the volume is louder and the bass is louder. But shortly thereafter when the ear realizes the BALANCE of the music is still not heavily weighted enough towards bass...one cranks it again.

The moment that the foundation of the music is weighty...that stops in my personal experience. Someone on this forum just stated that was their experience once they started using Gryphon amps which have that tonal and bass foundation and weight.

Naturally, the CLEARER the words, notes, nuances, the less one needs to crank to hear those details as well.

While you do have a point, I like to listen to music relatively loudly for a simple reason: it's more realistic, since live music mostly is rather loud too -- except in some situations when you sit at a distance or when the energy of small-scale music dissipates into a larger venue where it is played.

I have also found that sound improvements can be pursued more efficiently at louder volumes. It is beneficial to stress both your room and your system so that you can spot weaknesses more clearly. At an even moderately lower listening volume I would only have found half of the acoustic problems in my room and with my speaker set-up that I did, as well as some of the distortions from inferior components and power, and my sound would never have reached the quality that I am experiencing now.

 

[Holmz]

Yes, I think that is right...but I have found that by doing it this way, there is genuinely no need for one. Yes, if we wish to crank it...it's thrilling. But actually, it is incredibly nuanced, detailed and also very powerful at low volumes.

^Of course^
Once they took off the loudness and tone control switches, we sort of have no other way to do it.

Well… maybe with cables, and DSP… and some speakers have pots on the back for a few dB of bits and cut.

 

[PYP]

In my room, the path to lower volume listening is commonly expressed as: low distortion gear, excellent power conditioning, vibration control and acoustic room treatments.

Now, everything comes together at an average of 50 bB, a weighted, according to the Decibel X iPhone app (which several people have pointed out isn't accurate). Bass lines and piano have weight. I'm easily transported by the music. At some point in reducing the noise level, my wife no longer asked me to "turn it down" even though the volume was higher than previously. That was my double-check that progress had been made.

 

[Tuckers]

In my room, the path to lower volume listening is commonly expressed as: low distortion gear, excellent power conditioning, vibration control and acoustic room treatments.

BINGO!

I notice that I get ringing in my ears and telltale signs of ear stress the next day from music on PAs in public settings (where there is obviously high distortion), even when the level does not seem as high as I listen at home. I have come to believe that distortion itself damages the ears, and that a clean signal at higher SPL may actually not damage hearing (within reason of course).

All this being said, I listen about where Ron says he does between 75-80 with peaks to 90db. More than that and I am simply not enjoying the music anymore. I was at a demo recently that was probably 90 average, and it was pure torture for me (and my ears rang a bit afterwards). This is aging as much as anything else I guess.

I have made great strides at reducing noise in my system this last year through some dedicated work on getting lower distortion gear (Ralph's Class D amps among them), and reductions in EMI and power filtration, grounding. This has resulted in my craving lower volumes more, by that I guess I mean 60-75 average with 85db peaks. When my system sound more lifelike at those levels, I feel I am making real progress with my system. I don't listen to a lot of full bore rock n roll anymore, its becoming less of my diet.

 

[PYP]

BINGO!

I notice that I get ringing in my ears and telltale signs of ear stress the next day from music on PAs in public settings (where there is obviously high distortion), even when the level does not seem as high as I listen at home. I have come to believe that distortion itself damages the ears, and that a clean signal at higher SPL may actually not damage hearing (within reason of course).

All this being said, I listen about where Ron says he does between 75-80 with peaks to 90db. More than that and I am simply not enjoying the music anymore. I was at a demo recently that was probably 90 average, and it was pure torture for me (and my ears rang a bit afterwards). This is aging as much as anything else I guess.

I have made great strides at reducing noise in my system this last year through some dedicated work on getting lower distortion gear (Ralph's Class D amps among them), and reductions in EMI and power filtration, grounding. This has resulted in my craving lower volumes more, by that I guess I mean 60-75 average with 85db peaks. When my system sound more lifelike at those levels, I feel I am making real progress with my system. I don't listen to a lot of full bore rock n roll anymore, its becoming less of my diet.

The relationship between distortion and perceived loudness is really fascinating, partly because there are many kinds of distortion and many sources of distortion in any setup. In general, I experience distortion as unevenness in frequencies, which hides the natural balance and therefore detail of the music. Whereas, I was hesitant to turn up the sound too far because my ears were telling me something wasn't right and potentially harmful, turning up the volume seemed the only way to get the natural detail that is present in music.

Now, I can turn up the volume without my ears signaling a danger point (which is itself dangerous as the OP suggested). Adding acoustic panels that both absorbed and diffused finally allowed a clarity that seems natural to me. I can listen at low levels or high levels depending upon my mood. Given the levels mentioned in this thread, the iPhone app I use must be off by quite a bit.

 

[Kingrex]

I opened the umik mic again. I opened REW. I tried to get the 18db gain turned off. No joy. Maybe its suppose to be there. I just refuse to accept my quiet office is 64 db of ambient noise.

I looked at REW and sort of laughed. I am on a chat with other people into software. One was bragging he had over 10,000 hours into setting up his DSP. And he is still working at it. Others have thousands, and are still working at it. I don't call that easy to use software. I'm going to push buy today and get some Amazon stuff ordered. Hand held sound pressure meter included.

 

[PYP]

I am on a chat with other people into software. One was bragging he had over 10,000 hours into setting up his DSP.

According to Malcolm Gladwell this guy is now an expert (see Gladwell's book Outliers which posits that 10,000 are needed for expertise -- a fun read).

 

[wil]

I opened the umik mic again. I opened REW. I tried to get the 18db gain turned off. No joy. Maybe its suppose to be there. I just refuse to accept my quiet office is 64 db of ambient noise.

I looked at REW and sort of laughed. I am on a chat with other people into software. One was bragging he had over 10,000 hours into setting up his DSP. And he is still working at it. Others have thousands, and are still working at it. I don't call that easy to use software. I'm going to push buy today and get some Amazon stuff ordered. Hand held sound pressure meter included.

I found what looks to be a good phone app SPL meter. It’s called DecibalMeter. It can be calibrated. I compared it two my handheld meter and it looks to be very accurate.

 

[Kingrex]

I found what looks to be a good phone app SPL meter. It’s called DecibalMeter. It can be calibrated. I compared it two my handheld meter and it looks to be very accurate.

You need a calibrated mic to alter the phone app, correct. I would love to be able to make REW work. I would love to throw some pink noise and see what my room is doing. I could have a steep peek that is higher in output than the rest of the music.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I found what looks to be a good phone app SPL meter. It’s called DecibalMeter. It can be calibrated. I compared it two my handheld meter and it looks to be very accurate.

Thanks wil, just downloaded it and put it on next to my niosh app. Looks intuitive to use and will check it out when I get a chance.

 

[wil]

Thanks wil, just downloaded it and put it on next to my niosh app. Looks intuitive to use and will check it out when I get a chance.

I just found one I like better: DBX. It’s free unless you want to upgrade and unfortunately if you want to use C Weight,
you need to upgrade. But it seems very accurate, and gives you average and peak level readings.

 

[wil]

You need a calibrated mic to alter the phone app, correct. I would love to be able to make REW work. I would love to throw some pink noise and see what my room is doing. I could have a steep peek that is higher in output than the rest of the music.

I also found the REW software to be difficult to use.

 

[microstrip]

100% the case for us, Ron...agree. Two things needed to happen for the volume in our system to go DOWN:

- super low distortion
- extremely even, powerful bass along with a generally weighty 'foundational' music presentation.

I do not think that super low distortion is needed for listening at low power. One of the systems that I could play at very low power included an Audio Research SP8 , an Electrocompaniet ampilfier and Quad ESL3, the only component of the system I could consider super low distortion.

With those two dynamics at work, my experience is you can gently pulsing-air bass at very very low levels (with an 8db gain preamp, I am talking 3-6 notches on a 50-notch preamp)...40db-45db of volume. Generally, I find that volume goes UP when you 'feel the need' to keep cranking because the 'oomf' is not there. By cranking, at first, the oomf naturally has gone up because the volume is louder and the bass is louder. But shortly thereafter when the ear realizes the BALANCE of the music is still not heavily weighted enough towards bass...one cranks it again.

I think that probably you are being too optimist. It seems to me that at 40-45 dB peak level, according to the Fletcher–Munson curves - now replaced by the close by, but less nice sounding equal-loudness contours - very low bass will be at the threshold of hearing. Do you you push the level of the subwoofer well up for low level listening?

The moment that the foundation of the music is weighty...that stops in my personal experience. Someone on this forum just stated that was their experience once they started using Gryphon amps which have that tonal and bass foundation and weight.

Naturally, the CLEARER the words, notes, nuances, the less one needs to crank to hear those details as well.

Having weight is not being weighty - we are now in semantics. Real music has weight.
Proper weight is a question of balance - room, speaker bass extension, amplifier damping and the correct amount of medium frequencies. IMO there is not such easy things as "clean power" or "clean system", unless we use water and soap on them.