Audio Note vs. Aries Cerat vs. darTZeel

[asegal]

These are very different amps. It is not only about the sound, it is about ability of the amp to drive the speakers. What speakers do you use?

Valid point and one that is a concern with something like the Audio Note UK option. I own a nondescript box speaker with specs as follows:
89dB 2.83V 1M room into 8 ohms. But I listen at fairly low volume levels - average of 60-65dB at the listening position (another consideration relative to sonics in its own right). Any thoughts?

 

[asegal]

The darTZeel products have very little in common with the other two sonically. I think you need to decide what your sonic priorities are and narrow down the field a bit further.

Yes, that is what I have heard.

 

[asegal]

I agree with above comments, very different sounding. I recently listened to DarTZeel LHC-208 MKII and Aries Cerat Protos at my local dealer, coming from an all tube system of Allnic and LampizatOr I felt the DarTZeel wasn't for me while I instantly fell in love with the Protos. I now have the DarTZeel on loan while waiting for my Protos, and it's not bad at all, but it takes some getting used to from where I'm coming. Ironically though I sold my Lampi the other day to a DarTZeel NHB-108 owner, I listened to his system and it sounded wonderful!

I'd say you would probably not go wrong with any of them, both great products, listening in advance if possible is always preferred of course.

ChatGPT yields this comparison which might not be too far from the truth:

Sound Characteristics: Dartzeel is known for its transparent, detailed sound with a natural tonal balance. It focuses on musicality and clarity. On the other hand, Aries Cerat Protos is often characterized by a more dynamic and robust sound with a rich, full-bodied presentation. The choice here depends on whether you prefer a more analytical and transparent sound (Dartzeel) or a warmer, more dynamic sound (Aries Cerat).

I think you have to ask yourself what kind of presentation you like, and try to be as honest as possible with yourself. For example I can feel that sometimes in writing an "analytical and transparent" description can have a sort of negative vibe to it while "warm and dynamic" sounds like something we all would want, still I know plenty of people who buys into the more natural, analytical and transparent sound as it feels more correct to them. There's nothing wrong with either.

Thank you for sharing all this! So you bought the Aries Cerat, then, it sounds like? Any reflections on the relative characteristics of the soundstages (width, height, depth) between the two you could share?

Love the ChatGPT summary. I ran that a couple weeks ago and got pretty much the same result from it. Good to know it seems to match your experience.

 

[asegal]

If your speaker has more than 94db/1watt then definitely Audionote. This amp will cast its spell over you. Good match for Livingvoice speakers. If you need more power I can recommend the Grandinote Shinai amp. Dual mono amp transistor class a with output transformers. One of best integrated amplifier I have heard to date.

Grandinote Shinai Integrated Amplifier

Grandinote Shinai integrated amplifier has refined and charming sound of Magnetosolid® amplifiers. Supreme musical characteristics of Prestigio, dual case 60W amplifier, are transferred in this little masterpiece of 37W for channel. In summary, these are two mono units, enclosed in a single chassis.

grandinoteusa.com

Thank you! On paper (and perhaps in reality) my speaker isn't a fit for the Tonmeister at 89dB 2.83V 1M room into 8 ohms. I am told by a couple people who own the Tonmeister that it will still work well at low to medium listening levels. Any thoughts?

 

[asegal]

Give the A12 a listen if you like you can put the savings towards a Lotus or a Ducati ..

A12 Classic – Advance Paris

www.advanceparis.com

Thank you! Will do!

 

[asegal]

I'm not familiar with either the Dartzeel or the Aries amps, but I have listened extensively to the AN Tonmeister in a variety of settings. I was also pretty close to buying one about four years ago.

It is a fabulous amp, there's no denying that, but there are two things you really need to consider. First is that it is ludicrously expensive for what it is. It is wonderful for sure, but as a 'value for money' proposition, it loses out hugely to other brands. The same is true generally for all Audio Note. My feeling is that AN charges a significant premium for it's equipment because it is one of the few globally established, large scale brands offering low powered SET amp designs into high sensitivity speakers with an established dealer network.

Yes there are plenty of other options for SET amps but most of them are very low volume manufacture and therefore represent more of a purchase risk. For example, my own SET amps are Silvercore 833s, made by one guy in Leipzig. If anything were to happen to him I'm not sure where the support would be (or will be when he inevitably shuffles off this mortal coil!)

Second, the Tonmeister is a 300B design. Apart from the maximum 10 watts you can get from that approach (at least in this design execution so there is an important speaker sensitivity question to answer), you also need to like the 300B sound and that is very much a love or loathe thing. If you love the 300B way of doing things then really the cost of the Tonmeieter is moot, or at least the question of VFM is less relevant. But a lot of people don't like the 300B approach, finding it too woolly, nebulous and lacking in drive and leading edge dynamics. The proponents adore 300B for its rich dark tones, graceful transparency and ability to be all this as well as dark, brooding and, in its own way, authoritative.

The Dartzeel would, I imagine, be so styalistically at odds with the Tonmeister that I'm surprised you have those two in your short list, as others have also commented.

Thank you for your insights! And, yes, I agree with the DarTZeel being an oddity on the list. It's more accessible for me to listen to -- which is one reason it's on there.

 

[morricab]

Thank you! On paper (and perhaps in reality) my speaker isn't a fit for the Tonmeister at 89dB 2.83V 1M room into 8 ohms. I am told by a couple people who own the Tonmeister that it will still work well at low to medium listening levels. Any thoughts?

I woukd generally say Tonmeister needs 95dB+ speakers unless you listen quietly and/or in a very small room. I use Protos on 98dB Horning speakers.

Other than the darTZeel, I think the amp route you are considering would also indicate a speaker change to get the most from the amps.

 

[VoicesInMyHead]

Thank you for sharing all this! So you bought the Aries Cerat, then, it sounds like? Any reflections on the relative characteristics of the soundstages (width, height, depth) between the two you could share?

I bought Aries Cerat but I haven't got it yet, 12 weeks delivery time and there's still some weeks to go.

About reflections and characteristics, I'm afraid I can't go into much more detail and this is a few weeks ago, this is actually a long and complex story and I'll try to give you some kind of summary with my experience instead. I wasn't really visiting my dealer to compare these amps, I was indeed curious about Protos but I had already made the wise decision in my head to NOT chase after it due to size, weight, cost and other reasons which only felt like asking for trouble. What's a bit difficult to explain without sounding like a lunatic is that what I actually wanted to change was my streamer, but I was also thinking a bit further and felt open to changing DAC as well, where I wanted to put focus on my turntable as primary source, and MAYBE for the right candidate I could be willing to change the amp, but just maybe. That's how the all-in-one-box DarTZeel came into the picture.

While listening I more or less immediately felt this wasn't for me and what I was looking for, we tried it with an external DAC/streamer but still no. To be honest I didn't give it much of a chance or listened very critical, it just felt wrong and I didn't want to continue. At this point I didn't know what to think about the amp or the streamer/DAC or even speakers for that matter and felt a bit underwhelmed. By coincidence (or faith?!) Protos was standing there next to it pocking for attention, it was turned off, cold and not even fully burned-in yet, but in the disappointment of what I just heard I asked if we could listen to Protos instead, only because it was there and it would be interesting to hear the new guy in town. And well, it was one of those moments when you immediately know, it literally only took seconds to feel with my whole body that this was it, this is what I want! It sounded like music with magic fairy dust sprinkled all over! While I previously felt anxious and didn't even want to hear the whole songs I now couldn't stop listening. I wasn't really paying attention to specific characteristics or details, I only listened to music which to me felt alive, rich and organic and just the way I like it.

I would say it was in a way an easy decision, but at the same time it turned everything upside down and I had to re-think my whole situation and if I could afford moving in this direction instead, and that it really meant stepping down on the digital side to finance it, but yeah, I couldn't get that listening session out of my head and after some consideration and discussion with my dealer I said let's go with Protos!

We'll see how this turns out, but I don't think I will be disappointed...

If I would consider DarTZeel again it would probably be the CTH-8550 MKII, but it's too pricey for me. And of course the LHC-208 wasn't THAT bad, it just wasn't right for me.

 

[geetee1972]

Interesting.

If this is true I'd hate to try to sell DartZeel if this is confirmed. The gear will be worthless.

If this is not true it's very dangerous and harmful to be spreading such things.

I think Roy's point is that he's hearing evidence to say that they are out of business but he's also at pains to say he can't validate this.

Thank you! On paper (and perhaps in reality) my speaker isn't a fit for the Tonmeister at 89dB 2.83V 1M room into 8 ohms. I am told by a couple people who own the Tonmeister that it will still work well at low to medium listening levels. Any thoughts?

You really need to hear the Tonmeist in your room with your speakers. On paper that level of sensitivity probably does mean you will not get the volume you want but it's not that far out that it's not worth a try, especially if you want to chase what a 300B amp does. Arranging a home demo should be relatively straight forward?

 

[DasguteOhr]

Thank you! On paper (and perhaps in reality) my speaker isn't a fit for the Tonmeister at 89dB 2.83V 1M room into 8 ohms. I am told by a couple people who own the Tonmeister that it will still work well at low to medium listening levels. Any thoughts?

More important than sensitivity is the straightest possible impedance curve, because SE tube amps(NON FEEDBACK) react strongly to impedance fluctuations. At high resistance values in the curve they play significantly louder. This can be unpleasant or sound particularly interesting (magic of single ended triodes). But 89db at 8 watts won't be enough to fill a party.
What speakers do you have?

 

[Amir]

Audio Note is tube and Dartzeel is solidstate.
There are very different so comparing them is not easy.

 

[JohnZ100]

My best information (from several different sources) is that Dartzeel is out of business and has been for several months - although nobody seems to be talking about it and I have been unable to verify that this is indeed so. I would certainly want to clarify the situation before sinking any money into one of their products, new or used.

Roy, you are one of the more respected reviewers, effectively a journalist really, out there. I have enjoyed reading many of your reviews and put a lot of weight and value on them. As I am sure you know this kind of statement can be quite damaging to a company. It is now picked up by a YouTube blogger and spread wildly across the Internet, to the point that the company has responded to indicate that they are not in fact out of business. My question is: did you contact the company to get its statement before making yours? I think that as a journalist, even though you are not technically publishing in a journal here, that would have been at least the right thing to do. They would then have had a chance to respond so that you could say, for example, that while your sources said… X, the company has responded with why…. And give them a chance to comment. If they refuse to comment you could have stated that. Instead, you just Seemed to have published this without any evidence or, on the face of it, comment or position from the company. I would like to hear your thoughts what happened here.

 

[Rt66indierock]

Maybe for people like you Roy should not be considered a respected reviewer.

I personally do not consider him a respected reviewer and haven’t since I met him at RMAF in 2016.

 

[JohnZ100]

I only went by the style of the reviews and the content. Never met him. This and his reply will add to my sense in this regard.

 

[Lagonda]

I only went by the style of the reviews and the content. Never met him. This and his reply will add to my sense in this regard.

And maybe the statement Herve made is exactly the kind of statement you could expect from a company in trouble, scrambling to consolidate and bring in outside capital. Let's see how this shakes out.

 

[JohnZ100]

True, yes, but my point is more that saying”…DartZeel is out of business and has been so for several months…” should only be done with sureness and certainly. This is a man’s life, business, customers, dealers, etc.. This is also about the health of our pursuit and hobby. The death of a member of our family should only be called with care. We all deserve that.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Maybe for people like you Roy should not be considered a respected reviewer.

I personally do not consider him a respected reviewer and haven’t since I met him at RMAF in 2016.

I absolutely consider Roy to be a respected reviewer.

 

[asegal]

I bought Aries Cerat but I haven't got it yet, 12 weeks delivery time and there's still some weeks to go.

About reflections and characteristics, I'm afraid I can't go into much more detail and this is a few weeks ago, this is actually a long and complex story and I'll try to give you some kind of summary with my experience instead. I wasn't really visiting my dealer to compare these amps, I was indeed curious about Protos but I had already made the wise decision in my head to NOT chase after it due to size, weight, cost and other reasons which only felt like asking for trouble. What's a bit difficult to explain without sounding like a lunatic is that what I actually wanted to change was my streamer, but I was also thinking a bit further and felt open to changing DAC as well, where I wanted to put focus on my turntable as primary source, and MAYBE for the right candidate I could be willing to change the amp, but just maybe. That's how the all-in-one-box DarTZeel came into the picture.

While listening I more or less immediately felt this wasn't for me and what I was looking for, we tried it with an external DAC/streamer but still no. To be honest I didn't give it much of a chance or listened very critical, it just felt wrong and I didn't want to continue. At this point I didn't know what to think about the amp or the streamer/DAC or even speakers for that matter and felt a bit underwhelmed. By coincidence (or faith?!) Protos was standing there next to it pocking for attention, it was turned off, cold and not even fully burned-in yet, but in the disappointment of what I just heard I asked if we could listen to Protos instead, only because it was there and it would be interesting to hear the new guy in town. And well, it was one of those moments when you immediately know, it literally only took seconds to feel with my whole body that this was it, this is what I want! It sounded like music with magic fairy dust sprinkled all over! While I previously felt anxious and didn't even want to hear the whole songs I now couldn't stop listening. I wasn't really paying attention to specific characteristics or details, I only listened to music which to me felt alive, rich and organic and just the way I like it.

I would say it was in a way an easy decision, but at the same time it turned everything upside down and I had to re-think my whole situation and if I could afford moving in this direction instead, and that it really meant stepping down on the digital side to finance it, but yeah, I couldn't get that listening session out of my head and after some consideration and discussion with my dealer I said let's go with Protos!

We'll see how this turns out, but I don't think I will be disappointed...

If I would consider DarTZeel again it would probably be the CTH-8550 MKII, but it's too pricey for me. And of course the LHC-208 wasn't THAT bad, it just wasn't right for me.

Excellent! Thanks for sharing all this. That's how it goes sometimes. Sounds like you are in for a treat with the Protos. Will your time with the DarTZeel and the Protos overlap such that you'll be able to play them head-to-head?

 

[asegal]

Audio Note is tube and Dartzeel is solidstate.
There are very different so comparing them is not easy.

Thanks! Very true.

 

[geetee1972]

True, yes, but my point is more that saying”…DartZeel is out of business and has been so for several months…” should only be done with sureness and certainly. This is a man’s life, business, customers, dealers, etc.. This is also about the health of our pursuit and hobby. The death of a member of our family should only be called with care. We all deserve that.

You've edited his quote. There was a 'to the best of my knowledge' part and a 'I haven't been able to confirm this despite trying' bit before and after the origianl quote.