Best turntable under 50k?
- Thread starter Frankie67
- Start date
Sorry Bonzo, your doubts in full respect, I personally was known to Mr. Ken Shindo and knew his audio components for quite a while, owned and still own some of them.
You seem to have no clue about my person and what I did in Hifi, that's understandable.
But if you don't have any more insights, then please don't judge about things you can't know and don't understand.
At least, that would be smart.
Btw, my collection on classical vinyl records is about approx. 3K in quantity, containing all the great performances of the past since the early 1950's. So I can only laugh about your comment.
Don't make yourself a clown here in this forum to judge about others. In the end, your only judging about yourself.
You seem to have no clue about my person and what I did in Hifi, that's understandable.
But if you don't have any more insights, then please don't judge about things you can't know and don't understand.
At least, that would be smart.
Btw, my collection on classical vinyl records is about approx. 3K in quantity, containing all the great performances of the past since the early 1950's. So I can only laugh about your comment.
Don't make yourself a clown here in this forum to judge about others. In the end, your only judging about yourself.
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i have heard the whole Shindo system and compared the Giscours as well as the TT. Shindo is always coloured and sluggish and slow and nothing more than branding.
just post videos mate with your classical records. No need to reply. Start a thread and post videos
I love (both the looks and performance) of my superb Kuzma XL DC TT with Kuzma 4Point 11" arm fitted with the MSL Eminent Ex which I bought in July this year from a Kuzma Dealer as a one owner 2019 unit with two tonearm towers both fitted with VTA (see my avatar) all in for approx. US$25k. I have it hooked up to the CH Precision P1 phono stage which I also obtained as a one owner used unit for US$10k which is also awesome.
The things I like about the XL DC is it's quite small foot print (especially if you only use one tonearm tower), fantastic quality, built to last, little both mechanically and electrically to go wrong with it and when it does you don't have to ship the whole TT back to Kuzma for repair etc. it can be updated to the Kuzma XL Air and Kuzma does a full range of tonearms for all price ranges including the brand new state of the art TOTL Saphir 9 tonearm.
The only down side is if you don't have a good enough platform / shelf / rack etc. to support it from or wooden creaky floor boards etc. as the TT and one tonearm tower is very heavy and also needs good vibration isolation especially if you have large speakers etc. and you listen to loud levels.
Interesting you have the MSL Sig Platinum as it's one of the cartridges I might upgrade to (or maybe the Sig Gold). Sound from my MSL Eminent Ex is fantastic for the price I paid.
The things I like about the XL DC is it's quite small foot print (especially if you only use one tonearm tower), fantastic quality, built to last, little both mechanically and electrically to go wrong with it and when it does you don't have to ship the whole TT back to Kuzma for repair etc. it can be updated to the Kuzma XL Air and Kuzma does a full range of tonearms for all price ranges including the brand new state of the art TOTL Saphir 9 tonearm.
The only down side is if you don't have a good enough platform / shelf / rack etc. to support it from or wooden creaky floor boards etc. as the TT and one tonearm tower is very heavy and also needs good vibration isolation especially if you have large speakers etc. and you listen to loud levels.
Interesting you have the MSL Sig Platinum as it's one of the cartridges I might upgrade to (or maybe the Sig Gold). Sound from my MSL Eminent Ex is fantastic for the price I paid.
I would humbly concur with this recommendation. While I don’t have the wherewithal to have had multiple high end tables in my system, I have heard many over the years in other systems. Granted not a fair way to judge, but my Avenger Direct is to me among the finest tables I’ve heard. Quite likely the last I will ever buy. To some, VPI may not have the cachet of some of these other brands, but they seem to have done direct drive very nicely. And in my system the table is rock solid and immune from feedback.
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Man, I'll tell you a secret what's inside my speaker and what you have been so desperate to know.
It's field coil drivers from some unobtanium provenance you aren't able to lay your hands on today anyway.
No deep pockets will help you in this regard. But you have your Universum speakers, no need to worry about that. LOL.
I suggest you both stop behaving soooo childish
I had a CTC reworked 301 with CNC new top plate in Slate skeletal plinth and Stefano Bertoncello bearing and 13,5kg bronze platter
the work done in UK was a disaster and I sent the 301 to Jaap Pees in NL
after that it behaved well incl a custom regen/psu
but I never really trusted this idler and felt it was outdated and rude to operate, however much idler drive
then I swapped to a Melco 3560 system and that´s probably the end station for me.....
simple no BS tt with outstanding drive and pitch stability
btw if you really must have an idler Martina Schoener makes a great 501 version
I had a CTC reworked 301 with CNC new top plate in Slate skeletal plinth and Stefano Bertoncello bearing and 13,5kg bronze platter
the work done in UK was a disaster and I sent the 301 to Jaap Pees in NL
after that it behaved well incl a custom regen/psu
but I never really trusted this idler and felt it was outdated and rude to operate, however much idler drive
then I swapped to a Melco 3560 system and that´s probably the end station for me.....
simple no BS tt with outstanding drive and pitch stability
btw if you really must have an idler Martina Schoener makes a great 501 version
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I earlier suggested the Ars Machinae belt drive table with factory arm.
If you end up wanting an idler driver but want the precision and beauty of a more modern design then definitely call Christopher Thornton, tablemaster at Artisan Fidelity. Chris's bespoke 301 Statement preserves what's special about the 301 but brings this classic design into the modern age. Big, bold and magnificent to behold, IMHO this is a revitalized 301 for the ages.
www.artisanfidelity.com
If you end up wanting an idler driver but want the precision and beauty of a more modern design then definitely call Christopher Thornton, tablemaster at Artisan Fidelity. Chris's bespoke 301 Statement preserves what's special about the 301 but brings this classic design into the modern age. Big, bold and magnificent to behold, IMHO this is a revitalized 301 for the ages.
Garrard 301 Statement — Artisan Fidelity
TONEAudio Magazine — Jeff Dorgay, Publisher 2018 Analog Product of the Year “The Singer Porsche of turntables. When listening to acoustic instruments, especially the violin and flute, their delicacy and sustain floats in mid, air captivating you. If you have been considering the ul
www.artisanfidelity.com
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It sort of begs the question-Why would you want to couple the motor to the platter via an idler? The trend is to decouple the motor from the plinth entirely. Am I missing something here?
Does anyone own a Bergmann Galder Signature (the one with the heavy 37 kg plate)? I got a very decent offer trading my current table. Thanks.
Interesting thread--my synopsis -for what it's worth re the Shindo 301 payback system.I've owned two complete systems.
It is indeed fine sounding playback--the sum of the parts --new Platter/Plinth/ Refurbished ( Oil bearing)arm/ SPUA /etc all combine giving an extremely musically competent scenario .As I wanted the Units bought back to pristine condition --both purchased from Dealer trade-ins I made arrangements for the Arm/s SPUa's to be reconditioned in Japan and the Garrards to go to Loricraft in the UK after consultation with Terry O'Sullivan as to the fact he could service the Shindo versions. All Ok'd and verified.
I removed the 301's from the Plinths and forwarded same to Loricraft for the full service--especially the the Cadmium Plating removal and reZincing, Shindo does not do this on the Player as sold.
While I cannot vouch for this anomaly in any other Shindo 301 Platters - -both had a seemingly
"major " failing namely the Grey Hammertone Ripple finish applied all over the Platter also covered the inner Rim where the Idler wheel drives contacts. I was unbeknown to this fact until explained in Emails from Terry and Bob Mortimer -whos father designed the 301.
They maintained the Platter finish was sonically totally unacceptable and must be removed to a smooth uninterrupted finish!
After my shock subsided ,I was informed it would cost £250 to machine the Platters--I naturally had no option so I agreed and this was added to the full metal polishing /etc service as required.
So if you own Shindo 301 Table might pay to inspect the inner rim of your Platter to see if the rippled finish as the top/rest of the Plate
is evident--if so I'd seriously consider getting it refinished.
BruceD
It is indeed fine sounding playback--the sum of the parts --new Platter/Plinth/ Refurbished ( Oil bearing)arm/ SPUA /etc all combine giving an extremely musically competent scenario .As I wanted the Units bought back to pristine condition --both purchased from Dealer trade-ins I made arrangements for the Arm/s SPUa's to be reconditioned in Japan and the Garrards to go to Loricraft in the UK after consultation with Terry O'Sullivan as to the fact he could service the Shindo versions. All Ok'd and verified.
I removed the 301's from the Plinths and forwarded same to Loricraft for the full service--especially the the Cadmium Plating removal and reZincing, Shindo does not do this on the Player as sold.
While I cannot vouch for this anomaly in any other Shindo 301 Platters - -both had a seemingly
"major " failing namely the Grey Hammertone Ripple finish applied all over the Platter also covered the inner Rim where the Idler wheel drives contacts. I was unbeknown to this fact until explained in Emails from Terry and Bob Mortimer -whos father designed the 301.
They maintained the Platter finish was sonically totally unacceptable and must be removed to a smooth uninterrupted finish!
After my shock subsided ,I was informed it would cost £250 to machine the Platters--I naturally had no option so I agreed and this was added to the full metal polishing /etc service as required.
So if you own Shindo 301 Table might pay to inspect the inner rim of your Platter to see if the rippled finish as the top/rest of the Plate
is evident--if so I'd seriously consider getting it refinished.
BruceD
Hi Frankie67,
I agree with those who answered saying that there is no best turntable, many products, even of absolute level, have pros and cons and it is important how they are aligned with our way of perceiving. I mean that even those who recommend a particular product often omit (obviously in good faith) to add a small but important complement: "For me".
For purely technical reasons, I find it absolutely meaningless to judge the performance of any product through the published videos.
I suggest you look for the possibility of listening to models that can meet your needs and tastes: the advice you have been given regarding the choice of dealer is very important. Its role will be fundamental for the correct tuning of the turntable and the assembly of the cartridge: as you certainly know without correct alignment of the heads and a correct configuration of the turntable you will never realize the true reproductive capacity of any turntable.
Best wishes for your choice!
I agree with those who answered saying that there is no best turntable, many products, even of absolute level, have pros and cons and it is important how they are aligned with our way of perceiving. I mean that even those who recommend a particular product often omit (obviously in good faith) to add a small but important complement: "For me".
For purely technical reasons, I find it absolutely meaningless to judge the performance of any product through the published videos.
I suggest you look for the possibility of listening to models that can meet your needs and tastes: the advice you have been given regarding the choice of dealer is very important. Its role will be fundamental for the correct tuning of the turntable and the assembly of the cartridge: as you certainly know without correct alignment of the heads and a correct configuration of the turntable you will never realize the true reproductive capacity of any turntable.
Best wishes for your choice!
to add to it all:
It´s something when you see a tt and use it
I was going to see a TechDAS Airforce III with the 35kg gunmetal platter I was offered at a good price
when I saw it IRL I was totally put off and thought it looked plastic-like and bling and just turned and left
It´s something when you see a tt and use it
I was going to see a TechDAS Airforce III with the 35kg gunmetal platter I was offered at a good price
when I saw it IRL I was totally put off and thought it looked plastic-like and bling and just turned and left
We've had similar Shindo units in. I'd like to say upfront I hold Shindo in the highest esteem and appreciate he stood on the shoulders of giants to create many of his products: The Latour --> Westrex Acoustilens. EMT --> Shindo bearing, Ortofon / Altec / WE etc etc. His understanding of the finer end of golden era offerings was truly insightful. His ability to incorporate and elevate such elements into contemporary designs was interesting in terms of sound and heritage. In many ways he along with the early guys in Paris brought the 301 out from obscurity.
The devil, in terms of the 301, is certainly in the detail. Work must be conducted on the motor, the sintered bushes should be replaced along with the various isolators and oil feeds. The speed disk, soft Ally will often show measurable run out. Plating the linkages has a strong cosmetic element, the preservation and correct function of the 301 are however also compromised should this be overlooked (In terms of function the pivot hub of the pitch control can transfer a great deal of vibration if oxidized old Cadmium is present) The idler bushes should also be replaced as they 'oval' in the direction of the 'pinch effect'. The idler wheels are often in poor condition (Marked pins / dry rubber / etc etc, many of the critical springs should also be replaced on any 301
The Major advances from Shindo in terms of the 301 are the bearing and indented top platter (A la 401) with high mass hub. The leaded mat is also effective. His work on the arm pod, tonearm and cartridge are also commendable.
From a purist perspective I understand many restorers attempt to leave as much as possible original to preserve the 'artifact.' That said, from an engineering standpoint I struggle to think of any 60+ yr old precision engineering that wouldn't require in depth servicing & maintenance to keep it running the same or close to the spec of the day it was certified in the factory.
The line for those that work on 301’s is down to perspective. Personally I wonder how much can be changed on a 301 before it's no longer a 301? I'm completely biassed of course, to me these units are more than just a turntable. For some they are a logical extension of of their record collection, for others their interest is driven by ‘artifact’ and aesthetic appreciation. Others still enjoy their the continued rise in value. There is a whole swathe of people championing the 301 for Mono etc etc. The reality of many is you have to live with these turntables so it helps to find genuine interest over and above turning at 33, 45, 78. The importance of sound however is something most collectors and restorers can agree on. It is here that complete rebuilding is essential (Even in sealed box NOS units.)
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Dont own one but have experience and recently set up and installed the 24K Gold edition a few months ago with an Air Tight PC-1 Supreme cart - exquisite performance.
Well Spoken AGrail--you have good experience with the Systems--Yes the "old" 301's in the UK Terry told me end up as Shindo Decks
I am aware of this procedure but not for this site thread. Criticism of things Shindo arouse great chagrin and teeth gnashing from dealers
Importers whom place a "Fatwa" on those who dare to post any adverse aspect of the brand,
--I have been a victim of this--the respected Agrail yourselves would not be subjected to this treatment--you are indeed lucky
!
Apologies to Frankie67 for the digression --back to Topic--
BruceD
I am aware of this procedure but not for this site thread. Criticism of things Shindo arouse great chagrin and teeth gnashing from dealers
Importers whom place a "Fatwa" on those who dare to post any adverse aspect of the brand,
--I have been a victim of this--the respected Agrail yourselves would not be subjected to this treatment--you are indeed lucky
!Apologies to Frankie67 for the digression --back to Topic--
BruceD
My advice is not to spend all your money on a single turntable for several reasons. First, you need a turntable to play back mono records with a mono cartridge. If you don’t have one, you’re missing out on the greatest musical legacy in recorded sound from 1920s-1960s, all of which sound fabulous on mono, were recorded in mono, and should be heard in mono with a mono cartridge. I’m talking legends from Bob Dylan to John Coltrane to Ella Fitzgerald to Frank Sinatra to The Beatles to Johnny Cash to Elvis Presley to….the list is endless. Thousands of the greatest popular, jazz, blues, rock and roll, folk, and classical music is originally recorded in mono and must be enjoyed that way. Stereo is a pale imitation of true mono sound on vinyl. I use a fully restored Garrard 301 with a 12” SME arm with the Miyajima Zero Infinity mono cartridge that’s a huge beast. True mono cartridges have dynamics that will make your hair stand on its end if you haven’t heard one. They are largely impervious to surface noise. They only respond to lateral groove modulations. Even old beat up stuff can sound great. In sum, if you haven’t heard vinyl on mono, you haven’t heard vinyl, period. Stereo is just not in the same class. It was always a compromise.
Second reason. Turntable technologies vary widely. There’s no one best choice. You have to hear a Technics direct drive SP-10 Mark II or Mark III to see why they leave most belt driven turntables in the dust. Even the ones costing hundreds of thousands of dollars and weighing a thousand pounds. I use a Technics SP-10 Mk 2 as a second turntable.
My third turntable is an SME 20/12 with the SME V12 arm with a Koetsu Platinum stone body cartridge. This is only for stereo records. The SME belt drive can’t match the drive and rhythm of the Garrard or the Technics. But for classical stereo records with the warm sounding Koetsu, it’s a good match. As with all belt drives, you’ll hear the belt signature. Some consider this a virtue.
My last and fourth turntable is a Technics SL-10 linear tracking turntable, a design so elegant that it’s the only turntable to be featured in the Museum of Modern Art. Timeless and ageless classic. All automatic. Takes only P-mount cartridges. I use a Shure. Sounds beautiful. Can play records upside down. Tracks grooves better than all my other tables. The linear tracking circuitry is a bit wobbly, so don’t use it on a system with low subsonic bass. But it’s a lovely machine that I’ve learned to service. Recently its internal belt snapped. Opened it up and fixed it in 10 minutes. It should last another 20 years.
Final advice. Don‘t skimp on the phono stage. I’d rather use a Technics SL-10 with my ARC Ref Phono 3SE than have to buy a cheaper phono stage to save bucks to buy a better table. Not what Linn tells you to do, but that’s been my experience over 30+ years.
Ok, I lied. One more bit of advice. Listen to old records, not audiophile stuff. The entire point of vinyl is to listen to stuff that never made it to digital. Old creaky bands, stuff recorded in the 1930s. There’s so much lovely music that will never be on Roon. That’s the stuff you should try to listen to.
Second reason. Turntable technologies vary widely. There’s no one best choice. You have to hear a Technics direct drive SP-10 Mark II or Mark III to see why they leave most belt driven turntables in the dust. Even the ones costing hundreds of thousands of dollars and weighing a thousand pounds. I use a Technics SP-10 Mk 2 as a second turntable.
My third turntable is an SME 20/12 with the SME V12 arm with a Koetsu Platinum stone body cartridge. This is only for stereo records. The SME belt drive can’t match the drive and rhythm of the Garrard or the Technics. But for classical stereo records with the warm sounding Koetsu, it’s a good match. As with all belt drives, you’ll hear the belt signature. Some consider this a virtue.
My last and fourth turntable is a Technics SL-10 linear tracking turntable, a design so elegant that it’s the only turntable to be featured in the Museum of Modern Art. Timeless and ageless classic. All automatic. Takes only P-mount cartridges. I use a Shure. Sounds beautiful. Can play records upside down. Tracks grooves better than all my other tables. The linear tracking circuitry is a bit wobbly, so don’t use it on a system with low subsonic bass. But it’s a lovely machine that I’ve learned to service. Recently its internal belt snapped. Opened it up and fixed it in 10 minutes. It should last another 20 years.
Final advice. Don‘t skimp on the phono stage. I’d rather use a Technics SL-10 with my ARC Ref Phono 3SE than have to buy a cheaper phono stage to save bucks to buy a better table. Not what Linn tells you to do, but that’s been my experience over 30+ years.
Ok, I lied. One more bit of advice. Listen to old records, not audiophile stuff. The entire point of vinyl is to listen to stuff that never made it to digital. Old creaky bands, stuff recorded in the 1930s. There’s so much lovely music that will never be on Roon. That’s the stuff you should try to listen to.
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You could have one TT with two or more arms for stereo and mono play back if physical space and or finances are limited !
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