Brinkmann Balance.

[awsmone]

As far as I have understood the AF1 & AF2 are not in your budget, so why is it important to compare them to the AF3?
Makes sense that costier products from a (good) manufacturer present a better overall quality.

I know of someone who owned the Kuzma XL with all the latest upgrades/updates, bought an AF3 and haven’t looked back. I'm less enthusiastic about Kuzma's products, as their build quality is not up to the standard I'm looking for when paying this amount of money.

I've read about the AF3 premium version, but it is totally re-built due to the weight of its platter and the 'standard' AF3 cannot be upgraded to it, also, it costs almost 50% more than the 'standard' AF3.

I am a bit surprised by the suggestion that Kuzma build quality might be sub par, certainly Very plain, but there is often a lot of hidden engineering,the 4 point and Kuzma M being examples

I agree the AF3 is a more modern design but also more expensive I thought

The Kuzma XL is quite different presentation to the M,the photo essay in WBF doesn’t suggest poor build

Many people put 4 points on AF 1 2 and 3s.....

 

[Gary J]

Some people say the Kuzma Stabi M is so close to the XL in sound quality that they cannot justify the price difference and others actually prefer the sound of the M to the XL. Not many comments outside this forum I can find about these tables but I have found some.

 

[bazelio]

Hi,

I was fortunate enough, some time back, to find an amazing deal on a Kuzma Stabi M with 11" 4-point. It also came with the periphery ring, which I use quite often. This table is going to stay with me for the long run, and I am glad to answer any questions. I'm also pretty familiar with the Kuzma XLDC and SME 30/12a. All three are phenomenal tables. Vs direct drive, or perhaps idlers, I find choosing really depends heavily on system synergy, room acoustic properties, and most importantly personal preferences. For me, the idlers are certainly finicky and easy to make sound unenjoyable. I've heard Garrard 301s sound absolutely relentless in certain rooms with certain systems, for example. The Technics DDs can be quite good, but again for me, tend towards having a bit too much leading edge and being a tad mechanical rather than musical. With my Stabi M though, I do find very expressive, dynamic carts to be a great fit. I use the Transfiguration Proteus. The overall sound oozes detail in layers with a holographic soundstage and well fleshed out instruments. There is just an overall ease of presentation about it that is so natural. As trite as it is to say, I just get lost in the music.

Last point: I can not agree with the complaint about Kuzma build quality. I've never heard anyone even suggest Kuzma build quality was subpar. In fact, the Stabi M is built like a tank. Literally. The 4 point is an extremely precise set-and-forget arm than extracts more detail from the grooves than just about any arm you're going to find. An absolute joy to use, listen to, and built to last three lifetimes.

Good luck!!

 

[Gary J]

bazelio Hi, I have also heard the DD tables have a analytical presentation as opposed to a warm sound of some belt drive tables. I have a Benz Ruby Z cartridge and it has body which I like so the Kuzma may be a good fit for my system. Thanks for your info.

 

[awsmone]

bazelio Hi, I have also heard the DD tables have a analytical presentation as opposed to a warm sound of some belt drive tables. I have a Benz Ruby Z cartridge and it has body which I like so the Kuzma may be a good fit for my system. Thanks for your info.

I don’t want this to turn into a dd versus belt flame war but the the HFN Compared the Sony psx9 using the same methodology as the AF tables......

 

[bazelio]

Some people say the Kuzma Stabi M is so close to the XL in sound quality that they cannot justify the price difference and others actually prefer the sound of the M to the XL. Not many comments outside this forum I can find about these tables but I have found some.

I would agree with those who find them more similar than different, especially if comparing the XLDC vs M. As an M owner, I don't know that I necessarily prefer the M from a sound perspective. The XLDC is awesome, and both just sound so effortless. The seller I bought my M from gave me this perspective (as he was a dealer who'd been using both, with my M as his main demo table):

I used the XL, latest also with the 4 Point. I found the the XL much more "mechanic sounding" . My english is maybe not good enough to explain this... But XL sounded like a machine or a watch. Tik, tak. Compared to the M, the M is more organic, music flows much better. Or think it as the difference between a big Steinway piano and a electric piano. Maybe a little on the edge, but the Steinway has some "emotion´s" in the sound that a Roland never will have.

I'm not sure I'm quite there in terms of entirely agreeing, but I can see the difference he's trying to point out.

 

[Gary J]

bazelio, this is what I have heard from other people about the XLDC vs M tables.

 

[iaxel]

iaxel, I did not know it was 50% more but I do like a upgrade path to anything I buy because I do not like to be left out in the future. It is of my opinion that if a company wants to offer an upgrade on their products they can, anything can be changed for a update price rather then making someone sell that product take a 50% drop in value then buy the new product for a lot more money. Again just my opinion, thanks for the info.

But there’s no upgrade path, you (currently) cannot upgrade the 'standard' AF3 to the premium. To buy the premium you have to sell your AF3 and buy from new.

 

[bazelio]

I auditioned the Brinkman up against a Kuzma and the Dr Feickert--- both the latter were superior . I also felt the same with another Brinkman( Bardo?) with a Triplanar demo--same non dynamic output.

I'd leave out Brinkman frankly.

BruceD

I'd leave out Triplanar arms, frankly.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I forgot to mention the Basis Debut Vacuum turntable with Vector 4 arm which I am looking to replace now.

What is the reason for wanting to replace the Debut Vacuum and the Vector? (I ask because I consider that to be a wonderful, life-long combination.)

 

[jackelsson]

It is of no concern. Thomas Woschnick’s belts are bullet proof and don’t even seem to wear out. There is no better belt in the industry.

Hi Gary,

Only recently I moved up from a TW Raven AC with the 3-motor unit to the TW Black Night, so from me obviously another thumbs up for the Raven AC which I have had for several years and always found it to be a great table. The 3-motor unit is a serious upgrade, I have never had any issues with the high quality belt, and the deck as such is a great basis to tune it into the desired direction sound wise with the choice of tonearm and cartridge.

Having said that for some reason we have a strong Brinkmann community around town here, I think it must be about half a dozen Balance alone within our group plus several other models. A good friend has a Balance with the Brinkmann 10.5 arm and a van den Hul Black Beauty and in this combination it's a serious, highly resolving and very dynamic analogue source. So another thumbs up from me there.

But the question really is who has ever heard all these tables really side by side in a direct comparison with similar tonearms and cartridges to judge on SQ in comparison?

What I can say from personal experience (or the experience of friends respectively) is that both Thomas Woschnick and Helmut Brinkmann are very nice people who take customer support very serious and who are usually quick in responding to inquiries. If the same is true for the distributor in your country remains to be seen though.

 

[Gary J]

Hi Ron, On page 2 forth thread down I gave my answer for moving on from the Basis table. Yes I know it is a great table but as you everything in audio is proprietary and I fear for the future of the company. I know from experience that the company is not the same as it used to be, many things have changed so while my table has good resale value it is time to move on. Ron I know it may be hard to understand what I am saying but trust me I really need to move on from this table but I want to move up and not sideways so my quest continues.

 

[Gary J]

Here is a question, PeterA mentioned the SP-10 table he heard had a hard edge to some instruments compared to his belt driven table. Has anyone else experienced this with other SP-10 tables? because the new SP-10R table may have the same traits due to the tables being built with no major changes in basic design, just a thought.

 

[awsmone]

Here is a question, PeterA mentioned the SP-10 table he heard had a hard edge to some instruments compared to his belt driven table. Has anyone else experienced this with other SP-10 tables? because the new SP-10R table may have the same traits due to the tables being built with no major changes in basic design, just a thought.

Yes there was extensive debate on this is a separate thread Peter A posted
I have the utmost respect for Peter

It’s impossible to say what this means without hearing it
My suspicious is that the SP10 which is high torque has powerful leading edge dynamics
If you have a system adjusted in a different manner, to accentuate leading edge , because it is less prominent in your system, then when you put a source in which these are already prominent it will be to much

Having an active system I can dial up or down leading edge effect, suspended turntables tend to have prominent midbass, which covers leading edge transients, dd which are non suspended don’t have this midbass bloom, which is very attractive none the less, and the leading edges are prominent, I can easily demonstrate this effect in my own system, especially on piano recordings

 

[Gary J]

Hi awsmone, I had a AMG turntable on loan on a HRS platform and it has a low torque motor and I really did not like the sound of the table, it did not have the body and weight that my system needs. Your right, a table with a supension has that midbass prominence that my system likes. My search is for a table that has weight and authority and that is why I am looking at the Stabi M because of what some have said about its overall sound. It seems there are tradeoffs with all tables out there to some degree. One thing is for certain, I do not want my new table to sound like digital and sterile as I have heard some tables do.

 

[PeterA]

Here is a link to that thread about the direct comparison between the SP10 and SME:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...arison-Technics-SP10-Mk3-and-SME-Model-30-12A

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hi Ron, On page 2 forth thread down I gave my answer for moving on from the Basis table. Yes I know it is a great table but as you everything in audio is proprietary and I fear for the future of the company. I know from experience that the company is not the same as it used to be, many things have changed so while my table has good resale value it is time to move on. Ron I know it may be hard to understand what I am saying but trust me I really need to move on from this table but I want to move up and not sideways so my quest continues.

I understand.

What about the TechDAS Air Force 3? (Reportedly the Air Force 3 has a slight midbass emphasis compared to the higher models.) But the Air Force 3 does not have a suspension.

I sense that you may have a preference for a turntable made in America by a long-standing company. What about something from VPI? (I enjoyed my VPI TNT Mk. IV for about 16 years. Rightly or wrongly I have never felt the overall machining quality of VPI is at the same level as some of the German and Japanese manufacturers, but VPI certainly makes very high quality, easily serviceable and great sounding products.)

 

[spiritofmusic]

Gary, +1 on the AMG. It left me cold, a pretty detached, bloodless sound. I have zero worries the Stabi M would be guilty of the same. But I still wouldn’t buy without listening first.
I have a soft spot for the Spec JP GMP-8000 high torque string drive, but chances of demo in the U.K. are close to zero, and I wouldn’t risk it.

 

[Gary J]

Sprit, I live in the USA midwest and the one thing I do not like about the AF3 is the slow startup time to full platter speed and I will not have a chance to hear the Stabi M before I buy but from what you have said about it that may be the right one to replace my Basis table, I do like what I have heard about it.

 

[spiritofmusic]

My rim drive gets up to speed in about 3 revolutions, and requires a lot of manual pressure to slow it down. I’m sure this contributes to it’s pertinent, insistent sound. I believe the Stabi M is closest to this approach of all the belt drives out there.