Calling on OWNERS of Upgraded Apogees & Sanders 10e Electrostatics

Dornford Yates

New Member
Oct 12, 2021
1
0
1
73
I don't have the Apogee's but I do have the 10e's with Magtechs, and also have some Quad ELS speakers and various others. I replaced Quad 2805's with the 10e's.
I have my speakers set up such that their rear output can either get reflected into the room, or alternatively if I open a window behind them, the rear wave goes outside. Opening the window does make a huge difference - the sound becomes much cleaner. I've long noticed that near reflections, particularly from a back wall, makes the highs sound edgy and distorted. This is true with choirs too! In Orange County, I attended several concerts in which a choir was placed sight under the back wall, and the resultant sound was quite JBL-like!
I don't get the head-in-a-vice effect, at least, the sound is holographic in the sweet spot, but perfectly fine everywhere else. It is very similar indeed to the original Quad ELS (except the bass, and how loud it goes). If I want to listen closely I sit in the sweet spot; otherwise anywhere else is perfectly fine for casual listening.
 

vucubaquix

New Member
Nov 14, 2020
21
6
3
48
Hello DY and Hppy New Year. I apologize for my delay in responding . I only just now noticed your post. I guess your neighbours are very lucky people , at least when your window is open because they get that sweet Sanders sound for free !! Thanks so much for your observations on the 10E, especially because you have them and know them well. Comments on the forums related to "head in a vice" sweet spot seem to be very extreme, and perhaps not a fair and balanced assessment made after a proper audition. It is hard to imagine a sonic dead zone manifesting after moving less than an inch. Now you have me a bit concerned because I as well have windows on my front wall where the 10E's would go. Even worse, I can not open the windows and my neighbours are too far away anyway. So, I wonder, should I think about a monopole electrostatic instead and avoid back wall reflection all together ? SoundLAB's don't seem to have quite the rear wall issues as much, or at least they have a suggestion ( that may work for the Sanders just as well). It's a tall vertical foam diffuser. Thoughts?
 

tmallin

WBF Technical Expert
May 19, 2010
812
265
455
69
Chicagoland
The SALLIE device SoundLab sells for their speakers works well with them to absorb/diffuse the back wave since, in contrast to the front wave, the curved segments "focus" at a spot behind the panel. If you put SALLIE at that focus spot, it should work well.

With the 10e, if you don't like the sound reflecting off glass windows, you could try installing heavy drapes which you would close for serious listening.

Or, perhaps less radical and probably less costly (good heavy drapes with transverse mounts are quite expensive!), try placing floor-to-ceiling acoustic foam in the area where the rear wave intersects the side wall and back wall. If you aim the speakers at your ears, place the foam so that it covers the area behind the speakers that you can see through the translucent panel of the 10e when seated in your listening chair.

I know from experience in my room that the 4-inch-thick, 2-foot by 4-foot Alphasorb foam panels from Acoustical Solutions are stiff enough to stand up on their own on carpet or bare floor and can be stacked atop each other and leaned against the wall without attachment of any kind. That way you can move them around at will and not mar the room surfaces in any way until you'r certain you want them placed just-so. Four boxes would be 12 panels and that may be enough at a cost of $1,076 in white. See this link: https://acousticalsolutions.com/product/flat-foam/
 

vucubaquix

New Member
Nov 14, 2020
21
6
3
48
Thank you for your post Tom, and the link. Much appreciated. Replies to my original question regarding Apogee and Sanders are pretty much all in at this point. The end result for now is I will leave my Apogee Divas where they are for now where they will do double duty for 2 channel listening and home cinema. My choice for now to best match their speed and voicing is to use Wisdom's in wall and in ceiling planar magnetic ribbons. But, I do have another room I use for 2 channel ( the one with all the windows ) For that room, the Sanders 10e are still in contention, as are SoundLAB 645's and the Janszen A8 Active SE . I do understand the competing design philosophies. I am seduced by the promise of true coherence promised by a single radiator with no crossover, tempted by the speed and bass extension of a transmission line woofer that it is written that no stator panel can hope to match , and enthralled with the prospect of elimination of dipole and phase cancellation as proclaimed by the monopole. Yes , I do believe in the electrostatic , but it is so hard to decide which of three prophets of sound I wish to follow in my small church of sound. Some of their sermons strike fear in the ears of the faithful: beware the head in a vice, seek ye only the direct radiation , shun the early reflection, believe in the devils work in phase cancellation, believe not in the false god of ambience creation , know ye that the earth panels are not flat - they are curved , believe not in the promise of elimination of panel resonance ....seek ye the truth. OK. I wish there were a way for me to invite them all so they could be heard , but alas that it not likely possible. Some of those prophets can be hard to find and hear . In the end, hearing is believing. Maybe . Perhaps this has the making of a new thread ?
 

ACHiPo

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2015
424
233
175
Pleasanton, CA
I'm afraid I can't address your original question about Apogee and Rogers, but ping me if you are interested in getting an opinion on Sound Lab electrostats. I received my brand new "skinny" Majestic 745s on 12/27 and after a week of running in they are sounding like I hoped they would.

Welcome to the forum.

Evan
 
  • Like
Reactions: picears

Soothsayer

New Member
Feb 7, 2022
7
8
3
56
I know I’m late to the party, but I own some original Scintillas and Mini Grands. I’ve heard the Sanders 10e’s at a couple shows. They are perhaps my favorite “contemporary” speaker. I’ve always been a panel guy and they sound divine. I think for certain types of music they would be impossible to better. The sweet spot is small, but I have Acoustats so I’m used to it. With that said, I find that the Apogees possess an authority and presence that no other panel speaker can equal. They reach out and grab your attention with a mid bass that is unparalleled. I find myself leaning forward in my seat and smiling uncontrollably….mesmerized by their power and precision. I have a refurbished pair of Scintillas on the way to me from True Sound Works. I’m anxious to compare them to the originals. If they have more detail and balance with the new ribbons, I think they may rival the Sanders for precision, while maintaining their authoritative presence.
 

christoph

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2015
3,846
3,168
490
Principality of Liechtenstein
I have a refurbished pair of Scintillas on the way to me from True Sound Works. I’m anxious to compare them to the originals.
I had Henk from Rotterdam completely overhaul my original Scintillas with all new Graz KLM5 ribbons, the 1 Ohm only bass panels, some severe mods to the frames and new x-overs with much better parts and the difference was otherworldish, not "only" night and day :eek:
You are in for a treat with your new Scinnies ;)

Btw. What model of Acoustats do you have?
I have a pair of Spectra 22 and I really love them :cool:
 

Soothsayer

New Member
Feb 7, 2022
7
8
3
56
I have 2+2’s, 1+1’s, and Spectra 66’s. The Spectra’s are phenomenal. I won’t part with them. In fact, I switch between them and the Apogees occasionally for a change of pace.
 

christoph

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2015
3,846
3,168
490
Principality of Liechtenstein
I have 2+2’s, 1+1’s, and Spectra 66’s. The Spectra’s are phenomenal. I won’t part with them. In fact, I switch between them and the Apogees occasionally for a change of pace.
The Spectra tech was an major improvement regarding vastly improved imaging and reducing beaming for the Acoustats.
Wow, the Spectra 66 must be a huge beast.
I will also keep my Spectra 22, no matter what.
 

Soothsayer

New Member
Feb 7, 2022
7
8
3
56
The Spectra tech was an major improvement regarding vastly improved imaging and reducing beaming for the Acoustats.
Wow, the Spectra 66 must be a huge beast.
I will also keep my Spectra 22, no matter what.
They are huge. I have way too many giant speakers. Lol. Something has to go!
 
  • Like
Reactions: christoph

vucubaquix

New Member
Nov 14, 2020
21
6
3
48
Hey Soothsayer , better late to the party than not showing up at all :) Thanks for your post. Once I became a panel guy, I have found it hard to stay away from them. Oh, yes I have tried to keep an open ear. I have tried in house Omnis ( Duevel Bella Luna's ) , "state of the art " Kii Three's, built some Common Sense Audio Audio Nirvana 12 " coaxials ( they do make common sense as advertised) . I have attended shows over the years years , and have never heard anything that would make me want to part with my Divas driven by what I still think is a match made in heaven for them, 4 Ray Lumley Mono 100 tube amps. I never have had a chance at the shows to hear SoundLABS or Sanders. Hence , my inquiries on the forums. But, for me, I think the absolute best way to sort things out is to have the speakers and equipment in one's own room for audition. That filters out so much hype, prejudice, snake oil and comparing apples to oranges because of different room acoustics, reproduction chains and personal taste . In the end, what really matters is what sounds good to the end user. There is no single holy grail, but it is fun chasing it. A used pair of SoundLAB Dynastats came up locally so I bough them on the spot so I could hear them in one of my rooms. And I also decided to ignore the on line critical comments related to narrow soundstage and "beaming" of the Sanders speakers and have a pair in house now to audition. They are not fully set up yet so I'll hold off detailed comments , but I can already know that I personally do NOT agree with the on line critiques with respect to "head in a vice" soundstage and that I concur with REG's review of the 10e's in the AS. If I had to, I could easily live with the used SoundLAB Dynastats. Wow, detail, definition , wide and deep soundstage and I can hear deeper and with more detail into the music than with any box speaker that I have had in house , and at the shows ( but that's an apple and orange scenario). Perhaps one of the biggest bang for the buck used speakers on the market. I have never heard the BIG SoundLABS and at my home , I'm limited to approx 33" in width. I am looking forward to seeing how the Sanders do when up against the slam and authority you mentioned that the Apogees have. But also, how the Apogees can do when up against the amazing resolution , detail , dynamics and almost holographic soundstage the Sanders have when playing the right recordings. I can also say that Rogers Sanders is an absolute joy to deal with and is virtually unmatched in his straight to the point, at times brutal honesty about all things audio. Sure, we can perhaps disagree with design choices and what may be the "best", but sometimes science and physics just speak the truth. Whether or not you ever become a Sanders fan, the white papers on his site are all worth reading. In the end , if someone really likes their Bose 901's , good for them, happy listening. I am laughing as I write this listening to desktop KEF LSX's and their coherent , deep soundstage that is enveloping me. I would not have believed it without hearing them for myself.
 

Soothsayer

New Member
Feb 7, 2022
7
8
3
56
I love what I’ve heard from the Sanders/Magtech combo. I came very close to getting a pair, actually. Same with Soundlabs. I almost bought some Majestic 945’s a few years ago that came up for sale near me very cheap. In the end, every speaker is a compromise of some sort. We just have to decide which compromises are worth ignoring and which are dealbreakers. Musical preference, personal taste, and room dynamics determine what each of us believes is best. As audiophiles, we are also in a never ending quest for “different”, disguised as “better”. We get used to a sound and after a while, find ways we feel it needs to be improved upon. We convince ourselves that every new component is an upgrade over the previous one. I’m not convinced this is always the case. I try to be honest with every new “upgrade”. With electronics, more often than not, it is a lateral move. Simply….different, not necessarily better. Speakers are much easier to quantify.
 

Jeffy

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2014
414
116
273
Orchard Lake, MI
I owned Sanders speakers early on and liked them a lot. I have sold them and now using the full range Final electrostat speakers. It's part of a home theater set up in my bedroom using their center elec. and rear's as well. The sound is vey natural. The krell home theater standard amp drives them and I'm using a 77 inch Sony Oled. Very happy indeed.
 

BillK

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2015
115
49
158
I've owned Apogee Caliper Signatures since 1992, redone with Graz ribbons in 2010.

The Sanders compare very favorably to the Apogees but like all hybrid speakers, I could always tell when frequencies transitioned from the ultra transparent panels to the conventional cone drivers.

The very small sweet spot of the Sanders were also a concern; if it weren't for that I would have asked for a pair for home audition.
 

vucubaquix

New Member
Nov 14, 2020
21
6
3
48
The Sanders 10e Hybrid bottom end is quite unlike all other hybrids as is it's sonic performance. I have a pair of SoundLAB Dynastats. The crossover point to the traditional woofer in a box is noticeable, not enough for me to make the speaker undesirable , but noticeable. But, the Sanders10e has a transmission line woofer that produces prodigious, fast and detailed bass. I can not detect the crossover point from the stat panel nor a difference in sonic signature from top to bottom. I also have Apogee Divas, which I love. I do not find the Sanders 10e lacking in coherence and bass performance in comparison. If anything, I find the Sanders has better bass definition. But, the Sanders and the Apogees are in different rooms and driven by different amplifiers . I have found the forum comments regarding "small" sweet spot and "head in a vice" not to be true in my listening room. Certainly there is a sweet spot , but the same is true of the Divas, which do have lobing because of time alignment differences between mid and tweeter ribbons. No speaker is perfect, but some are great. For me, the Apogees and Sanders are truly great speakers. Reading reviews and forum threads can at times be helpful, but in the end, there is no substitute for an audition with in your own room. Had I not taken the negative on line comments about the Sanders with a grain of salt, I would not have opted for the in home trial. I am part way through the 30 day trial but I already know there is no way I would give them up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: christoph

eslguy

New Member
Mar 12, 2022
4
0
1
75
Heard Apogees many years ago and loved them but can't comment now. I have had the 10e's for a while and they are certainly one of my favorite speakers. We all hear things differently and have different preferences so this just reflect my opinions which I note are different than some previous posters. I actually am listening to them now seated way off access and they sound fine. There is definitely a sweet spot where they really blossom but even off access I find them pretty acceptable. In the sweet spot they outimage any other speaker I have heard . I also am fan of transmission lines so I like the bass as well. They use a Driverack for xover and frequency adjustments and can do inroom measurements so if you like to tweak things they can be a lot of fun to tailor. The Magtech Amps are excellent and great bang for the buck. Sanders believes a highly directional speaker is desirable as lessens room interactions (others obviously prefer wide dispersion) I haven to agree but that is my taste. The gripe with ESLs has usually been no bass and can't play loud. Not the case here - tons of bass and they can play real loud. Certainly my favorite system. Also service, support and warranty are superb. He offers a 30 day trial and I doubt he gets many returns
 

BillK

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2015
115
49
158
Old thread, I know, but Apogees really don’t have that same sweet spot effect mostly because they prefer little to no toe, making for a quite wide sweet spot.
 
  • Like
Reactions: christoph

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing