Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[hopkins]

You connect a DAC directly to something like that and listen through headphones. Then your brain doesn't have to filter what sound comes from the device and what is the influence of the room. This means you take a lot of unknowns out of the equation. Only headamp and headphones.View attachment 126311

Agree 100%. Using Dan Clark Stealth headphones connected directly to my DAC (which is an "attenuator", with no analog amplification) gives me a window into the recording that I feel no speaker, regardless of the price, could ever offer. It feels like a direct connection from the recording to your brain! On some aspects, speakers will always sound superior, however.

Headphones are a fantastic tool to "benchmark" your system. You can, of course, choose to "tune" your speaker system to a sound that you prefer, but at least you understand what you are sacrificing when doing so.

Linkwitz, for example, discusses the use of headphones as a reference:

Reference earphones

He concludes: "I want to emphasize that anyone who makes critical evaluations of loudspeakers needs to know the quality of his source material. Any one of the three earphones that I investigated can become a useful reference transducer."

Mono recordings are actually very pleasant with headphones. You can also play with crossover filters (I don't see the need, but many appreciate them).

I should note as well that vinyl can be more challenging to listen to with headphones as the surface noise is more prominent - at least with my basic turntable.

So much is lost with speakers in terms of low level sounds (in addition to tonal accuracy), it is really sobering to understand that.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Agree 100%. Using Dan Clark Stealth headphones connected directly to my DAC (which is an "attenuator", with no analog amplification) gives me a window into the recording that I feel no speaker, regardless of the price, could ever offer. It feels like a direct connection from the recording to your brain!

Headphones are a fantastic tool to "benchmark" your system. You can, of course, choose to "tune" your speaker system to a sound that you prefer, but at least you understand what you are sacrificing when doing so.

Linkwitz, for example, discusses the use of headphones as a reference:

Reference earphones

He concludes: "I want to emphasize that anyone who makes critical evaluations of loudspeakers needs to know the quality of his source material. Any one of the three earphones that I investigated can become a useful reference transducer."

Mono recordings are actually very pleasant with headphones. You can also play with crossover filters (I don't see the need, but many appreciate them).

I should note as well that vinyl can be more challenging to listen to with headphones as the surface noise is more prominent - at least with my basic turntable.

So much is lost with speakers in terms of low level sounds (in addition to tonal accuracy), it is really sobering to understand that.j

I've been using the Sony ZH 1ES headamp/dac for 3 years, which is like the proverbial "reinforcing wire" no matter via USB coax digital or analog input. excellent dac up to 4x dsd. with headphones from Beyerdynamic, Audeze no low level detail get lost. I always wanted to try out the Sony MDR- Z1R headphones. They're probably the best closed headphones at the moment, but they're expensive for me.

Review: Sony TA-ZH1ES | The Master Switch

See our in-depth review of the Sony TA-ZH1ES headphone amp, with our analysis of the design, comfort and fit, sound quality, accessories, and more.

www.themasterswitch.com

 

[Geoffkait]

Forget all that stuff about headphones not being able to project a deep and wide soundstage. The soundstage on on my modest vintage Sony headphones/ Sony Sport Walkman system has progressed in the *past two months* from being inside my head to being just outside my head by a foot or two, to extending way behind the confines of headphones, on really good material like the Stones‘ Love You Live, Dire Straits‘ Brothers in Arms and Dead Can Dance‘s Within the Realm of the Dying Sun the soundstage is twenty to thirty feet out in front of and around me, very similar to what I would hear on my Quad 57s, only even more 3 dimensional. And it’s not just the soundstage, everything about the sound is spectacular - detail, tonality, dynamics, air, separation of instruments.

“An ordinary man has no means of deliverance.“ - Audiophile axiom

 

[Rexp]

Forget all that stuff about headphones not being able to project a deep and wide soundstage, my soundstage on vintage Sony headphones has progressed in the past two months from being inside my head, to being just outside my head by a foot or two, to extending way behind the confines of headphones, on good material like the Stones‘ Love You Live, Dire Straights‘ Brothers in Arms and Dead Can Dance the soundstage is twenty to thirty feet out in front and around me, very similar to what I would hear on my Quad 57s. It’s not just the soundstage, either, everything about the sound is spectacular, detail, tonality, dynamics, air.

“An ordinary man has no means of deliverance.“ - Audiophile axiom

Question is, is it helpful to recommend headphones that no one can actually buy?

 

[Geoffkait]

Question is, is it helpful to recommend headphones that no one can actually buy?

My point is that it’s not what you have, it’s what you do with it. I can obtain the same huge soundstage with Sony Walkman Ultra light headphones, too. They are readily available. My recent success with soundstage has very little to do with what audiophiles generally believe is required for great sound. It has little to do with the type or cost of the headphones or CD player.Or speakers, amplifiers, cables, etc, to generalize.

 

[hopkins]

I've been using the Sony ZH 1ES headamp/dac for 3 years, which is like the proverbial "reinforcing wire" no matter via USB coax digital or analog input. excellent dac up to 4x dsd. with headphones from Beyerdynamic, Audeze no low level detail get lost. I always wanted to try out the Sony MDR- Z1R headphones. They're probably the best closed headphones at the moment, but they're expensive for me.

Yes, headphones can get ridiculously expensive. I got mine half price from someone who had just bought them and gave up on amplifying them correctly. I may sell them back at some point. While the DCA is a better "tool", my much cheaper Senn HD400 pro are really enjoyable and do give good enough resolution to appreciate recordings (and evaluate system videos!). I also regularly use Etymotic in-ear phones and enjoy them.

Headphones are also a convenient way of evaluating the quality of different digital releases before deciding on which to purchase.

Anyway, this thread is not about headphones.

 

[Rexp]

The myth that you have to spend fortunes to get decent vinyl playback is somewhat blown open by these $8000 and $2000 all-in rigs (starts at 12.27):

 

[D.Duttilleux]

Not my experience. Reclocking matters a lot with nearly all digital sources….they all make substantial jitter.

Full balanced and transformer coupled in itself guarantees nothing. I run a SET, why woukd I want to use balanced circuits?

There's jitter and annoying jitter > Kusunoki.
Jitter is primarily an issue of the past, related to transports, old receiver chips etc. To quote Archimago:

"The jitter phenomenon is a property of the digital hardware interface itself (ie. TosLink and adaptive USB tend to be worse than coaxial, AES/EBU, and asynchronous USB). Therefore, my suspicion/belief is that so long as the computer software player is functioning properly (ie. no buffer under runs, feeding a bitperfect driver like ASIO), then there should not be any jitter issues other than the limitation of the computer-to-DAC interface (at least in this case with a modern CPU & motherboard chipset)."

and:
"This whole 'jitter' thing is getting tired and boring . Yawn... I'm not using any exotic or expensive gear at all and yet I can't even get jitter anomalies to show up despite the strain I've put on the CPU/GPU and USB interface."

That said, I've listened to the Avantgarde Trios with both an Audio Note CD 5 + DAC 5 (notorious for quite high amounts of jitter) and with a totl AVM streamer, one after the other. The difference was night and day, in favor of the AN setup.

Regarding transformer coupling: this is desirable when going with 'DAC Direct'.
In any case, I'm in favor of 'balanced' as a result of my experiences with PA gear. Evidently, it's not a necessity in a well-thought-out home setup.

 

[morricab]

There's jitter and annoying jitter > Kusunoki.
Jitter is primarily an issue of the past, related to transports, old receiver chips etc. To quote Archimago:

"The jitter phenomenon is a property of the digital hardware interface itself (ie. TosLink and adaptive USB tend to be worse than coaxial, AES/EBU, and asynchronous USB). Therefore, my suspicion/belief is that so long as the computer software player is functioning properly (ie. no buffer under runs, feeding a bitperfect driver like ASIO), then there should not be any jitter issues other than the limitation of the computer-to-DAC interface (at least in this case with a modern CPU & motherboard chipset)."

and:
"This whole 'jitter' thing is getting tired and boring . Yawn... I'm not using any exotic or expensive gear at all and yet I can't even get jitter anomalies to show up despite the strain I've put on the CPU/GPU and USB interface."

That said, I've listened to the Avantgarde Trios with both an Audio Note CD 5 + DAC 5 (notorious for quite high amounts of jitter) and with a totl AVM streamer, one after the other. The difference was night and day, in favor of the AN setup.

Regarding transformer coupling: this is desirable when going with 'DAC Direct'.
In any case, I'm in favor of 'balanced' as a result of my experiences with PA gear. Evidently, it's not a necessity in a well-thought-out home setup.

And I can tell you that putting a good reclocker in between the cd5 and DAC 5 would make the gap you heard significantly larger.

 

[D.Duttilleux]

The myth that you have to spend fortunes to get decent vinyl playback is somewhat blown open by these $8000 and $2000 all-in rigs (starts at 12.27):

Youtube is generally not the best medium to analyze differences (unless a good mic setup is used > Hifi Immersion), but I agree with the argument.
The core of good, enjoyable audio reproduction is not (only) related to price, but rather a matter of a well-thought-out/synergistic composition of components.

I saw a used Kondo phono pre amp for sale, asking price 60k. The silver price has been going through the roof for some time, but it still raises the question which setup justifies such investment.
(Ongaku vs Jinro: I prefer the latter)

 

[D.Duttilleux]

And I can tell you that putting a good reclocker in between the cd5 and DAC 5 would make the gap you heard significantly larger.

In that case it may be true, because of the old 'prone to jitter' technology.

Personally, I haven't used transports in at least 15 years.

 

[morricab]

In that case it may be true, because of the old, the old, 'prone to jitter' technology.

Tried it with modern DACs etc. Same effect.

 

[hopkins]

There's jitter and annoying jitter > Kusunoki.
Jitter is primarily an issue of the past, related to transports, old receiver chips etc. To quote Archimago:

"The jitter phenomenon is a property of the digital hardware interface itself (ie. TosLink and adaptive USB tend to be worse than coaxial, AES/EBU, and asynchronous USB). Therefore, my suspicion/belief is that so long as the computer software player is functioning properly (ie. no buffer under runs, feeding a bitperfect driver like ASIO), then there should not be any jitter issues other than the limitation of the computer-to-DAC interface (at least in this case with a modern CPU & motherboard chipset)."

and:
"This whole 'jitter' thing is getting tired and boring . Yawn... I'm not using any exotic or expensive gear at all and yet I can't even get jitter anomalies to show up despite the strain I've put on the CPU/GPU and USB interface."

That said, I've listened to the Avantgarde Trios with both an Audio Note CD 5 + DAC 5 (notorious for quite high amounts of jitter) and with a totl AVM streamer, one after the other. The difference was night and day, in favor of the AN setup.

Regarding transformer coupling: this is desirable when going with 'DAC Direct'.
In any case, I'm in favor of 'balanced' as a result of my experiences with PA gear. Evidently, it's not a necessity in a well-thought-out home setup.

I was not aware that Archimago was an authority on the topic.

Anyone can run a few tests from their home and write endless blogs about the topic.

 

[D.Duttilleux]

As much as I believe we are actually living in a giant conspiracy (or simulation), as an IT professional I don't subscribe to most of the external clock voodoo, except for studio/recording work.


The following two articles may enlighten some (including the comment sections):

RETRO-AUTOPSY: Museatex Melior BS-1 Bitstream S/PDIF DAC (circa 1995?). A few words about external clocks for audiophiles. And a speaker cable blind test?

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

MUSINGS / DEMO: Why "Bits Are Bits". Let's not add unnecessary fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

 

[hopkins]

Here we go again...

 

[D.Duttilleux]

I was not aware that Archimago was an authority on the topic.

Anyone can run a few tests from their home and write endless blogs about the topic.

He doesn't pretend to be either imo.

His down-to-earth approach is a breath of fresh air among the tsunami of high-end nonsense online.

For example, read his comments about tube amps and cables. No condemnations, but sober observations (cables obviously make a difference).


I completely agree with this statement (including the reference), but everyone's mileage may vary:

"Yes, there is a time and place for using a master clock in a digital audio system. And that place is in the studio. As per the linked Sound-On-Sound article (bold mine):

"There's a widespread notion that adding a high‑quality master clock to a digital system will somehow magically improve its overall performance. While that might possibly have been the case in the very early days of semi‑pro digital converters where, frankly, some of the internal digital clock designs were pretty ropey, it certainly isn't the case today. As I've explained above — and will prove below — today's converter designs generally work best on their own internal clocks, and most will deliver a slightly poorer performance when clocked externally. The very best devices will show no change in performance at all, because they have superb clock-extraction circuitry that can remove all traces of clock jitter and other external clocking artifacts, so they work just as well as when running on their internal clock."

After this statement the article goes and show how various ADC's actually may perform less well with an external clock (higher noise, more jitter). So it is with DACs running off an external clock where you now have another wire going between boxes and extra circuitry to implement this feature. Notice that the SOS article came out in 2010. These days with DACs featuring asynchronous interfaces, chips with very high jitter reduction, and fancy units featuring "femtoclocks", IMO, there's simply no market for external clocks other than in the studio. The only potential role these boxes have are as some kind of "look at me" luxury items to impress audiophile friends with a significant chance that it's actually reducing playback fidelity if the audiophile had bothered to objectively test!".


Everyone is free to follow his/her own path. So if a 10k clock seems to make a difference... go ahead.

 

[Al M.]

As much as I believe we are actually living in a giant conspiracy (or simulation), as an IT professional I don't subscribe to most of the external clock voodoo, except for studio/recording work.

Once you hear the difference you realize it's not voodoo.

I have become extremely skeptical about claims that "technically things should not make a difference" (that holds for many aspects in audio, BTW). I say this as a scientist who deals with measurements in his own work in the lab everyday, so nothing against measurements per se.

We were told back in 2007 or so that computer audio was the solution to all the problems because it was "jitter-free". Nonsense. Rubbish. We know how computer audio and streaming turned out with its "perfect sound". "Hi-res" or not, in many cases it still has to fight to be as good as simple physical CD playback, especially when that is supported by reclocking.

 

[hopkins]

He doesn't pretend to be either imo.

His down-to-earth approach is a breath of fresh air among the tsunami of high-end nonsense online.

For example, read his comments about tube amps and cables. No condemnations, but sober observations (cables obviously make a difference).

I have no problem with people reviewing and recommending budget items.

We all know there's a lot of snake oil out there.

You don't need meaningless tests to prove anything. All you need to do is listen...

 

[morricab]

As much as I believe we are actually living in a giant conspiracy (or simulation), as an IT professional I don't subscribe to most of the external clock voodoo, except for studio/recording work.


The following two articles may enlighten some (including the comment sections):

RETRO-AUTOPSY: Museatex Melior BS-1 Bitstream S/PDIF DAC (circa 1995?). A few words about external clocks for audiophiles. And a speaker cable blind test?

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

MUSINGS / DEMO: Why "Bits Are Bits". Let's not add unnecessary fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

This is where I think you have blinders on, my friend, because of what you know. Computers, streamers and such don’t make very good transports and benefit greatly from reclocking. I think you already accept some ideas out of the mainstream but not this one because of your profession and the fact that it doesn’t impact computer data transmission. However, this isn’t computer data transmission, this is timing sensitive audio data transmission.

 

[morricab]

He doesn't pretend to be either imo.

His down-to-earth approach is a breath of fresh air among the tsunami of high-end nonsense online.

For example, read his comments about tube amps and cables. No condemnations, but sober observations (cables obviously make a difference).


Everyone is free to follow his/her own path. So if a 10k clock seems to make a difference... go ahead.


I completely agree with this statement (including the reference), but everyone's mileage may vary:

"Yes, there is a time and place for using a master clock in a digital audio system. And that place is in the studio. As per the linked Sound-On-Sound article (bold mine):

After this statement the article goes and show how various ADC's actually may perform less well with an external clock (higher noise, more jitter). So it is with DACs running off an external clock where you now have another wire going between boxes and extra circuitry to implement this feature. Notice that the SOS article came out in 2010. These days with DACs featuring asynchronous interfaces, chips with very high jitter reduction, and fancy units featuring "femtoclocks", IMO, there's simply no market for external clocks other than in the studio. The only potential role these boxes have are as some kind of "look at me" luxury items to impress audiophile friends with a significant chance that it's actually reducing playback fidelity if the audiophile had bothered to objectively test!"

Not a master clock using an atomic clock or whatever. A reclocker is doing something different. Check out the Mutec MC3+ …doesn’t cost so much and really reduces jitter.