Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[Audiohertz2]

Nothing like good old Transfer function

Traditionally Square wave performances on amplifiers could tell me how they would sound when being driven and i Dont mean the Obligatory easy peasey ones done by STereophile..

Regards

 

[D.Duttilleux]

In the days before computer playback and (later) streaming became en vogue, a lot of attention was already paid to improving digital reproduction. Accuphase, Audio Note and a whole bunch of other (high end) brands tried hard to make digital sound more like analog, with AN of course relying on tubes.
Another attempt to achieve a more analog/vinyl-like reproduction using tubes (and jitter reduction by using 1 and later even 3 custom clocks) was NoeTjoeb. I still have 3 of those modified Marantz CDPs, in various configurations.

Points of interest/determining factors:
- Type of conversion: chips, (resistor) r-2r, fpga etc.
- Over and upsampling (or not).
- Interface: usb, spdif, i2s, network etc.
- Power supply.
- Circuitry: topology, layout, manufacturing process, components,
- Philosophy: design objectives, methods, excecution.


Personally, I'd be interested to learn who's still using vintage DACs, and why.

 

[D.Duttilleux]

Again, we are talking about reclocking the data stream between source and DAC. Not syncing multiple digital units to one master clock.

Yes, but how does it benefit the internal clock that determines playback jitter of modern, properly designed, asynchonous DACs (ignoring electrical pollution caused by ground loops, noise etc.)?

 

[tima]

This is why, for audio at least, I like the work around trying to correlate what listeners prefer or find less offensive with technical data. Looking for a model that fits from the data is an interesting pursuit, IMO.

Vladimir Lamm's approach.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Yes, but how does it benefit the internal clock that determines playback jitter of modern, properly designed, asynchonous DACs (ignoring electrical pollution caused by ground loops, noise etc.)?

If you want hear only the better external clock your dac must have resampling off function.
Otherwise, the internal clock determines the sound, but if you feed a better, time-correct signal to the DAC, the less the clock has to correct this gives a better end result.
Exsample dac

 

[morricab]

In the days before computer playback and (later) streaming became en vogue, a lot of attention was already paid to improving digital reproduction. Accuphase, Audio Note and a whole bunch of other (high end) brands tried hard to make digital sound more like analog, with AN of course relying on tubes.
Another attempt to achieve a more analog/vinyl-like reproduction using tubes (and jitter reduction by using 1 and later even 3 custom clocks) was NoeTjoeb. I still have 3 of those modified Marantz CDPs, in various configurations.

Points of interest/determining factors:
- Type of conversion: chips, (resistor) r-2r, fpga etc.
- Over and upsampling (or not).
- Interface: usb, spdif, i2s, network etc.
- Power supply.
- Circuitry: topology, layout, manufacturing process, components,
- Philosophy: design objectives, methods, excecution.


Personally, I'd be interested to learn who's still using vintage DACs, and why.

My list of DACs:
1) Ayon Skylla 2, with BB PCM1704K(4).
2) Monarchy Audio M24 with BB PCM63K
3) Metrum Octave 2 DAC with unknown R2R chips (8)
4) Kinergetics Reasearch KCD-55 Ultra, with Ultra Analog D20400A (2)
5 PS Audio UltraDac 2 with UA D20400A

i have had an AudioAero Prima DAC that used the STARS filter and AD1853, an APL DSD-AR DAC that converted all to DSD. Neither of these had realism.
As a dealer for Aries Cerat I had a Kassandra DAC that uses 16x AD1865N chips. That and the Ayon are both capable of quite realistic playback.

 

[Lagonda]

My list of DACs:
1) Ayon Skylla 2, with BB PCM1704K(4).
2) Monarchy Audio M24 with BB PCM63K
3) Metrum Octave 2 DAC with unknown R2R chips (8)
4) Kinergetics Reasearch KCD-55 Ultra, with Ultra Analog D20400A (2)
5 PS Audio UltraDac 2 with UA D20400A

i have had an AudioAero Prima DAC that used the STARS filter and AD1853, an APL DSD-AR DAC that converted all to DSD. Neither of these had realism.
As a dealer for Aries Cerat I had a Kassandra DAC that uses 16x AD1865N chips. That and the Ayon are both capable of quite realistic playback.

My Krell Kps 25sc uses 4 PCM 1704 K dacs too, and destroys them in a couple of years because of to much heat. They are hard to get these days, i am down to my last one. I would not call the sound realistic, more like impressive if used directly, not trough the shitty built-in preamp section. Krell use a shitload of cheap capacitors instead of a few good ones

 

[morricab]

My Krell Kps 25sc uses 4 PCM 1704 K dacs too, and destroys them in a couple of years because of to much heat. They are hard to get these days, i am down to my last one. I would not call the sound realistic, more like impressive if used directly, not trough the shitty built-in preamp section. Krell use a shitload of cheap capacitors instead of a few good ones

Sounds like a poor design overall if those chips are failing like that. My Ayon is over 10 years old and gets quite warm due to the 4 rectifier tubes and 4 output tubes (2 per channel) and no issues whatsoever with the DAC chips. Unlike the Krell, it behaves as a very good preamp if needed (I have integrated amps so, no need for a preamp). Of course you need a good output stage if you want to have a chance for realistic sound...that means tubes... . Sad something so expensive as your Krell would have cut corners that way. At least I can say looking inside the Ayon that they used premium parts everywhere (the power supply uses film caps instead of electrolytics and the output caps are Mundorf Supreme Silver/Oil.

Krell also made a version with the Ultra Analog DAC modules...probably that sounds quite good...but perhaps not full potential because of the problems you describe above with yours.

 

[DasguteOhr]

1.Metronome c 6 Signature AKM chip tube output transformer coupled e 88cc telefunken
2. Sonic Frontiers SFD 2 (2x ultraanalog d20400a) tube output e88cc telf.
3. Diy soekris dam 1021 nos dac with output buffer
4. NEM mini dac AD1853 germanium transistor outputstage transformer coupled

 

[morricab]

1.Metronome c 6 Signature AKM chip tube output transformer coupled e 88cc telefunken
2. Sonic Frontiers SFD 2 (2x ultraanalog d20400a) tube output e88cc telf.
3. Diy soekris dam 1021 nos dac with output buffer
4. NEM mini dac AD1853 germanium transistor outputstage transformer coupled

How does the metronome compare to the SFD DAC?

 

[Lagonda]

Sounds like a poor design overall if those chips are failing like that. My Ayon is over 10 years old and gets quite warm due to the 4 rectifier tubes and 4 output tubes (2 per channel) and no issues whatsoever with the DAC chips. Unlike the Krell, it behaves as a very good preamp if needed (I have integrated amps so, no need for a preamp). Of course you need a good output stage if you want to have a chance for realistic sound...that means tubes... . Sad something so expensive as your Krell would have cut corners that way. At least I can say looking inside the Ayon that they used premium parts everywhere (the power supply uses film caps instead of electrolytics and the output caps are Mundorf Supreme Silver/Oil.

Krell also made a version with the Ultra Analog DAC modules...probably that sounds quite good...but perhaps not full potential because of the problems you describe above with yours.

Tube buffers can make digital sound better, but it is still only digital. Yes, my brother has the Ultra Analog 20 bit version, those dacs are impossible to repair, sounded good back when they worked, he uses his as a drive only. Krell does not age well, too much heat. The Kps 25Sc has too much packed into a badly ventilated space, running class A. Over 100 capacitors on different slide-in boards that can be extracted and upgraded as new technology came along, that was the plan anyway. JVC discontinued the pro drive used because their manufacturing machine broke, and Krell got fu..ed., and had to start from scratch. Phillip had discontinued the drive they used in their previous top loader. Even have 2 new spare laser heads and a JVC top loader CD player that uses the same drive as backup ! Thank god i rediscovered vinyl.

 

[DasguteOhr]

How does the metronome compare to the SFD DAC?

Metronome the treble is cleaner than in Sonic Frontiers, the bass has more punch in the lowest octave. When it comes to sense of rhythm, I think Sonic Frontiers has a slight edge. The tonality is a little darker with the Sonic Frontiers if you use the same tubes. Overall, Sonic Frontiers is more of a rocker and metronome a conductor who makes few mistakes in my opinion.
NEM is playing in my heart at the moment. so simple build and soo good.

 

[morricab]

Metronome the treble is cleaner than in Sonic Frontiers, the bass has more punch in the lowest octave. When it comes to sense of rhythm, I think Sonic Frontiers has a slight edge. The tonality is a little darker with the Sonic Frontiers if you use the same tubes. Overall, Sonic Frontiers is more of a rocker and metronome a conductor who makes few mistakes in my opinion.
NEM is playing in my heart at the moment. so simple build and soo good.View attachment 126451

Too bad the NEM uses the AD1853 D/S chip. This was what was in my Audio Aero...and it wasn't bad but it wasn't a good R2R.

 

[morricab]

Metronome the treble is cleaner than in Sonic Frontiers, the bass has more punch in the lowest octave. When it comes to sense of rhythm, I think Sonic Frontiers has a slight edge. The tonality is a little darker with the Sonic Frontiers if you use the same tubes. Overall, Sonic Frontiers is more of a rocker and metronome a conductor who makes few mistakes in my opinion.
NEM is playing in my heart at the moment. so simple build and soo good.View attachment 126451

Have you tried NEM amps/preamps? Their 300B amp is quite good.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Have you tried NEM amps/preamps? Their 300B amp is quite good.

I once heard at a friend he use the 300b integrated amplifier. very powerful emotional sound you have to look for a long time to find something similar. I would like to hear pre and 300b poweramp this one.rare not find today

 

[DasguteOhr]

Too bad the NEM uses the AD1853 D/S chip. This was what was in my Audio Aero...and it wasn't bad but it wasn't a good R2R.

Just listen to it if you can and then judge, you will be surprised

 

[morricab]

I once heard at a friend he use the 300b integrated amplifier. very powerful emotional sound you have to look for a long time to find something similar. I would like to hear pre and 300b poweramp this one.rare not find todayView attachment 126453

I heard a very good demo with Odeon No. 38 speakers and this combo.

 

[D.Duttilleux]

If you want hear only the better external clock your dac must have resampling off function.
Otherwise, the internal clock determines the sound, but if you feed a better, time-correct signal to the DAC, the less the clock has to correct this gives a better end result.
Exsample dacView attachment 126444

This DAC would benefit from external clocking (considering the amount of jitter), but...it's not meant to be.

 

[D.Duttilleux]

My list of DACs:
1) Ayon Skylla 2, with BB PCM1704K(4).
2) Monarchy Audio M24 with BB PCM63K
3) Metrum Octave 2 DAC with unknown R2R chips (8)
4) Kinergetics Reasearch KCD-55 Ultra, with Ultra Analog D20400A (2)
5 PS Audio UltraDac 2 with UA D20400A

i have had an AudioAero Prima DAC that used the STARS filter and AD1853, an APL DSD-AR DAC that converted all to DSD. Neither of these had realism.
As a dealer for Aries Cerat I had a Kassandra DAC that uses 16x AD1865N chips. That and the Ayon are both capable of quite realistic playback.

How does the Metrum compare to the others?

Does anyone have experience with this one? (Lessloss):

 

[morricab]

This DAC would benefit from external clocking (considering the amount of jitter), but...it's not meant to be.

View attachment 126456

Why not? You simply insert the reclocker inbetween the transport or streamer and the DAC...two digital cables later you are reclocking your DAC.