Can high end audio survive after the baby boomers are gone

[valkyrie]

NO - as we begin to shuffle off this mortal coil the pastime will end with us. Why? Because a group of people, led by a pompous, condescending wind bag decided that ordinary stereo systems were simply "not up to snuff" - they were the province of the lower order and as such were not worth listening to.

Coming back from Vietnam tens of thousands of GI's bought - and had shipped home - Japanese stereo systems - some rather nice sounding. Once home in dorm rooms and small apartments we got together, drank beer and smoked, and listened to music, discussed music, were moved by music and were transported by music. But the important thing is that we were able to enjoy reproduced music on the cheap - and we had Julian Hirsch to tell us that the stuff we listened to was OK - we didn't worry about sound stage, imaging, transparency and image specificity. We enjoyed music.

We really didn't have "better" music (listen to Chris Whitley) - but music was more in our life and everybody had a decent enough stereo system which is why music was in our lives - and we were upgrading according to our tastes and capabilities. We had stores (hooray for Pacific Stereo) where our peers sold great gear at reasonable prices - now we have stuffy audio salons where some condescending ass informs us that what we want can be found at Best Buy - where a certain record player manufacturer sells re-branded Audio-Technica carts for orders of magnitude more money than the same cart in the AT brand.

The industry that serves us is into the big rip-off. Now we are admonished to buy power cables and interconnects and bizarre speaker wires - all for thousands of dollars just to get started - anti-vibration mats and racks, $800 record cleaners and just one ridiculous scam after another.

99.99999% of that stuff is pure hokum - silliness, voodoo, snake oil and just a waste of time and money.

Last RMAF I attended some fellow getting off one of the crowded elevators attached himself to me. This was a guy somewhere between late twenties and middle-thirties. Was from Iowa and had decided to attend RMAF on a whim. He was confused and deeply bothered by what he saw - $100k systems that sounded bright, harsh and analytical. Guys pushing all kinds of sixteenth order trim items (vibration mats and power cables) for thousands of dollars. He asked me to explain what was going on for he felt that he had fallen into the rabbit hole.

Fortunately we were on the same floor as Odyssey Audio where I turned him over to Klaus Bunge and his realistically priced gear - the guy who sells the speakers, the mono-bloc amps, the tube pre AND the speaker cables for < $6k (which btw sound far better than many $100k systems). As I left I told him - "don't go to any other rooms - vampires exist in them - they will suck the life out of your music and your wallet".

So that is what is putting an end to the hobby; the snobs who are only into stereo because they want to display their social status; the greed head manufacturers who want to get rich NOW with the very least exposure to doing any actual work; the overbearing magazines and their endless reviews and glowing endorsements of absurd items (power cords for instance); and the stuffy, overpriced salons with their overbearing and condescending sales staff.

Will somebody please standup and put an end to this madness that has consumed my favorite hobby? Most of the stuff out there right now is just overpriced jewelry - like a $15k cart that is made of gold and has a diamond on the front - what does that do for the sonic ability of that cart? How about a long article that discusses the FACT that in blind testing NOBODY can identify a power cord. How a $50 IC cannot be distinguished from a $5k IC?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Oh this guy's gonna be big trouble, I tell ya. Big trouble. I may just retire.

Tim

 

[puroagave]

Oh this guy's gonna be big trouble, I tell ya. Big trouble. I may just retire.

Tim

oh my, i just sprayed my monitor with coffee. too funny

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

oh my, i just sprayed my monitor with coffee. too funny

Well, if I'm gonna be such a pain in the a$$, the least I can do is try to be entertaining from time to time.

Tim

 

[GaryProtein]

I'm going far out on a limb and saying that Valkyrie makes some valid points.

I'll probably be in big trouble, too.

At some point we will have to stop the madness.
(not the quest for excellence or perfection, just the madness and snake oil)

 

[rockitman]

The industry that serves us is into the big rip-off. Now we are admonished to buy power cables and interconnects and bizarre speaker wires - all for thousands of dollars just to get started - anti-vibration mats and racks, $800 record cleaners and just one ridiculous scam after another.

99.99999% of that stuff is pure hokum - silliness, voodoo, snake oil and just a waste of time and money.

The industry is there to make money by serving buyer needs. Is that any different than any other business ? You can argue what a fair markup is and that is usually what the market will bear. You're not against capitalism are you ? You sound angry

 

[FrantzM]

I'm going far out on a limb and saying that Valkyrie makes some valid points.

I'll probably be in big trouble, too.

At some point we will have to stop the madness.
(not the quest for excellence or perfection, just the madness and snake oil)

This, I share with you. I don't see it stopping though. High End Audio has become a luxury sector and the audiophiles have proven their compliance to this. price will continue to increase .. For little to questionable to no gain in performance ... ... We will no longer see what we had in the 80's and 90's after us .. It will be a small number of companies selling ever more expensive wares to the well-heeled... No anger here by the way, resignation and deep down, wishing I am wrong.

 

[caesar]

It seems that the baby boomers are the last generation really into high-end audio. I belong to the biggest audio club in North America. You rarely see anyone under 40. The average age is between 55-60.

From all the young people I have met or been exposed to not one is into high-end audio. In fact they really don't care about sound quality at all. For them it is all about convenience.

JBL (Harman) is going after young people in their commercials:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYGMBP0WWyA
Maroon 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92m7-D-1o3Y
Paul McCartney

Are these campaigns successful? Who knows. Maybe, but probably not very successful.

Pinterest.com is one of the hottest social networking sites. People post pictures that are meaningful to them on the site, and others can like or repin the pictures. But when one does a search for "speakers", you mostly get pictures of ear buds and computer speakers. People are just too busy with their lives and have too many alternatives to engage in our hobby.

 

[Mosin]

I agree with Frantz to some degree, but probably for different reasons. On the previous page of this thread, I posted some of my observations regarding the growing interest of younger listeners in analog. A couple of things to note is that they seem to be grouped according to the music they prefer, and they aren't established enough to afford really good gear. They will grow into it, though. But, will the industry survive inspite of that optimistic outlook? There are other factors at work, in my opinion.

Consider the steady disappearance of brick and mortar stores for a minute. They are disappearing due to lack of traffic, government regulation and taxation, lack of enough money to advertise properly, dead inventory that won't sell, high rents, etc., etc. That affects the availability of goods that the larger manufacturers make when many are already in precarious market positions. Those guys have to have volume to survive, and they have to keep a high profile. These days, if a larger manufacturer spends thousands to present at audio shows, there must be a return that is immediately realized. Fewer and fewer can attend just to keep their names out there. Then, they have employees, mortgages, taxes, etc. to consider, not to mention the constant need to develop something new every few months to wow the reviewers. Remember that their competitors are feeling the crunch, too. That puts them in more fierce competition than ever before. It all takes its toll. As a result, I see the larger companies as being in the worst positions of all. In this economy, it is taking more than just the status quo to keep them afloat.

That leaves the cottage industry guys who make only a few pieces a year. Those guys are in the most viable position, but they are dependent upon the larger manufacturers because those are the ones who support the trade shows and magazines. The Internet has been great for the little guy, but he depends on the larger guys to keep his venues open for him. Otherwise, it is difficult for him to reach his potential customers, even if they are pretty much assured to like what he makes. Logistics are his enemy, and in a big way. Then, there is the cost of making products in limited numbers. His vendors often span the globe, and freight costs alone make up a surprising percentage of his overhead. Don't forget that he has other overhead, too. It is difficult in good times, but now it is harder and harder to keep going. Luckily, passion drives most cottage operations, not net profit. Still, costs are out of sync.

That leaves us with a few well-heeled buyers paying even more for their addiction than ever, doesn't it?

 

[valkyrie]

The industry is there to make money by serving buyer needs. Is that any different than any other business ? You can argue what a fair markup is and that is usually what the market will bear. You're not against capitalism are you ? You sound angry

I guess I am angry - not in an emotional sense but the type of anger that you feel as an intellectual and analytical perception. There are so many people who need music in their lives - and there is no way they can get the appliances necessary to have that music without being absolutely ripped off by an industry (or most of it) which has taken leave of its senses in yet another "gold rush".

I hope you realize that THIS FORUM is very important - for if you carefully read the "subtext" of the various posters you will find, as I did, that the level of intellectual discourse, the depth of taste and appreciation are FAR, FAR beyond that of ANY AUDIO FORUM on the web. The people on this forum - whether or not I particularly agree with them - are in my opinion the folks who will be setting the standards and taste of the hobby for some time to come - and all of this merely by their respective abilities to perceive and to appreciate - and of course to communicate. We really do have some "luminaries" wandering about this electronic haze.

So my perceptions are valuable - at least to me - and I believe it is important to spread a message that a person can have stunning, incredibly engaging and absolutely marvelous sound reproduction in their REAL living room for less than $10k. You do not need $1000 or even $100 power cords to enjoy the best of any recording. Nor do you need $30k speakers, or $20k amplifiers or some absurd distorted vinyl engine that sells for $15k and pumps like an old fat dog with its artificially enhanced 'wow/warp' setup (I am describing a Shindo with its gigantic effective arm mass and ridiculously low compliance Ortofon cart - blame Senor Shindo - not Ortofon - yielding an effective resonant frequency of about 2Hz).

I have a LOT of experience with so-called "high end" equipment thanks to a long term friendship with a devoted, died-in-the-wool, bury me next to HP fellow (we met as engineers at Texas Instruments many, many moons ago) - and I am here to tell you - as I have told him for the last ten or so years - that the hobby has become absolutely delusional - and this harms real people who are looking to enjoy sound with something that doesn't cost them $500k. Or even $15k. We are - or at least some of us are - destroying a wonderful hobby.

So Mr. Rockitman - the industry is NOT serving buyer needs - it is with its foul accomplices in the ragazines - leading and defining buyer needs - and doing so in a very misleading manner. The industry at this point is about "Tail Fins" - not about substance (hate to date myself but I can remember the impact tail fins on cars made in '57).

However if a number of mature, insightful and thinking individuals - such as I believe populate this forum - begin to cry foul - enough is enough - then we may observe a sea change wherein the industry will respond with great products for realistic prices. Like I want to see David Wilson build a decent speaker for about $2k - something that sounds as good as a Golden Ear Triton for the same price - but that will never happen for Wilson is not a good enough engineer to do such a thing. Villchur could do it - Koss could do it - I guess our current crop of engineers are just not very efficient or very insightful. No wonder we are loosing our primacy as an engineering culture.

As for capitalism - that bedrock of truth, beauty and the American way? Well we can discuss that at length another time in another place (PM) - and let us leave politics to that forum.

 

[caesar]

However if a number of mature, insightful and thinking individuals - such as I believe populate this forum - begin to cry foul - enough is enough - then we may observe a sea change wherein the industry will respond with great products for realistic prices. Like I want to see David Wilson build a decent speaker for about $2k - something that sounds as good as a Golden Ear Triton for the same price - but that will never happen for Wilson is not a good enough engineer to do such a thing. Villchur could do it - Koss could do it - I guess our current crop of engineers are just not very efficient or very insightful. No wonder we are loosing our primacy as an engineering culture.

I frequently wonder about this also. Like I said in a different post, pinterest.com is one of the hottest social networking sites where people post cool pictures of stuff they like. But if you do a search on speakers, you get pictures of ear buds and small computer speakers. Frankly, I'm not sure there is enough demand out there for audiophilia stuff. People have too many alternatives competing for their time and money. But if there were, would it be possible for a wilson or a wolf to manufacture one of their speakers in such large volume that costs could be brought down to $2-3K? Hard to answer without more inside information and cost accounting data. But a nice thought experiment...

 

[Mosin]

valkyrie,

I don't believe it is all about ability. A lot is about resources. One can be a genius engineer, but if he cannot afford the necessary R&D, or have access to materials, he can do only so much. Back in the heyday of Western Electric and RCA, teams worked with great resources at hand. It was insane by today's standards.

A retired RCA engineer told me that RCA matched tubes for amplifiers not only by mechanical measurements, but with real world waveforms made with the tubes on the actual amplifier that would be their home. When the waveforms of a set overlapped, it was a match. This was possible because RCA made the tubes. There was no waste because they sold the non-matching ones individually. No amplifier maker can do that now. Another example he gave was the time spent on development of a single tweeter. The "C" version to replace the "A" version in the RCA LC1-A speaker took a team of engineers three years to develop. After development, each one was assembled by an engineer. It was then matched to the first one made, so that every single "C" tweeter matched all others perfectly. No one can do that now.

If someone makes a speaker that can sell for $2,000 now, his cost would need to be $500 or less. Maybe more, if he sells direct. Hell, if that's what you get for 2K, you may as well buy vintage.

 

[rockitman]

Thanks for clarifying valkyrie. You have a very strong opinion. I'm all for better sounding less expensive gear and agree, great sound can be had for under $10k. And yes, this is the best audio forum of people bar none.

 

[Bill Hart]

Valkyrie said: "the industry is NOT serving buyer needs...'.
Which is precisely why it's suffering even more now from narrow markets, and the 'bling' factor you are complaining about. There are high value products, but I'm not sure you can expect them from the manufacturers who cater to the 'lux goods' model of marketing.
I don't have an issue with 'aspirational' products. I think your anger is less about price, per se, than the fact that they don't, in many cases, deliver sonics commensurate with the stratospheric prices. Interestingly, the stuff that is highly sought in some hi-fi markets, like Japan, is ancient, and increasingly rare equipment taken out of theatres in the US and Europe. That too is a narrow 'collector's market,' which probably has little relation to 'value' but at least some history is being preserved and used.
The real opportunity is obviously the digital market and higher quality downloads, with computer-based hardware and ancillaries. But there is still a great divide between the folks that think, on the one hand, that an iPod plugged into a piece of electronics from a box shop is more than adequate and, on the other, say, $1500 for a DAC and several grand for an amp and a like amount on speakers. Even at the 'value' level you are talking about, I don't think it makes sense to a great majority of people, even those who could easily afford to spend 5, or 6 or 10 grand on a system. It is a hobbyist pursuit, with all the arcania and limitations and code words and 'insider stuff' that any hobby has.
I also agree that this is a great forum. Welcome!

 

[FrantzM]

The thing is those those high prices distort the perception of the market even at the level of Audiophiles. THe gear most sought after becomes the ones with the high price tags. Almost Automatically, thus the notion I hate the most that of "price Class" and the almost condescending " good for its price" expression. Oh I know not too many people can afford a 100 K speaker and there lies the problem even that audiophiles doesn't look at his/her purchase as a good one there is an implicit modifier "for the price I paid" and this audiophile is waiting for the first opportunity to spend a lot more on a dreamed for gear. I do understand that our gear being very specialized and extreme in construction and (hopefully) design will cost more but should it be the routinely insane numbers we see as ordinary nowadays? Or the upgrade that could buy an entire competitive component? I would cite my Favorite "upgrade" from Wilson Audio where an "update" took the Maxx from whateve it was to $35,000 more... of course the Wilson fans and the Audiophile High Prices Defense League (aka AHDL) did find all kind of excuses for the upgrade and now the Maxx3 is close to $90K . Fine and dandy if you have the dough but what is the performance brought in? What is the level of performance of a $90K speakers ... I hear a lot about R&D, I would really want to know what is the level of R&D on many of these very expensive items, on cables for exemple? I wouldn't mind that the Inustry takes a stance on luxury and be done with it just like Goldmund: Luxury Audio but it is the hypocrisy on performance that bothers me a times and it is someting we audiophiles seem to almost allow to happen so eager we are to justify the price to ourselves and for the manufacturers !!!... Not much we fill the blanks for them and tome that is possibly unique... Thus discussion such as SOTA level of $20K for TT what would it be for speakers then 165,000 and for amps? 300K? All this taken with a smile and with call to economics systems and Free Market? Added to that that the Audiophiles and the Audiophile press are pushing back against research and establishment of standards to back up claims ... It is as if we try as much as possible to push away the very things that would allow a vibrant market: clear standards of performance, peneration within the most numerous and active sector of the market, the young people and products that push the enveloppe in a clear fashion... So far not much of this and we would like to think it will survive us, for the most part in our fifties or more? Some money will be made in these products it is not however sustainable the level of interest and of penetration is not there.

 

[Bill Hart]

Interestly, Art Dudley wrote a column in this month's Stereophile saying that he was drawing a line at mega-buck stuff. I like reading him.

 

[caesar]

Oy!!!! Does anyone actually think there will be no high end gear in 30 or 40 years?

This thread is really showing off our human biases. Talking about high prices turning prospective customers off is like arguing that cigarette smoking is not unhealthy because your grandfather smoked three packs of cigarettes a day and lived to be 105. The grandfather's health could simply be an unusual case that does not speak to the health of smokers in general. Likewise with high end audio prices. How many Magico Q7's or Wilson XLF's will be sold. Maybe a rush of a dozen or two at the announcement. Then a trickle of 2-3 per week for 2 years until the next hot thing is announced. However, most of us live in a different world.

Furthermore, the discussions about high prices and measurements are what is in our head because of this site, not what consumer needs are. High prices and measurements constantly get brought up on this site by 4 or 5 guys, like the 100 year old smoker, but it's not what everyone on this on site, let alone a prospective consumer, is concerned about. Go to Pinterest.com to see what the consumers are interested in. They are not shy and pin and repin what they like. How many of those people, who know nothing about high end, will walk into a dealer and demand a product because it measures well? Chances are they will hear a product somewhere that BLOWS them away. They will become interested because it moves their emotions!

If they desire a similar experience in the future, and if they have enough time (being multi-taskers) and enough money, they may get interested in the hobby. Eventually, they may - or may not! - ask for measurements. And if they do fall in love, and their wallet is not that large, maybe they will find an old Quad 57, refurbish it, play some hi-rez through it, have a drink, and enjoy life.

 

[opus111]

However if a number of mature, insightful and thinking individuals - such as I believe populate this forum - begin to cry foul - enough is enough - then we may observe a sea change wherein the industry will respond with great products for realistic prices.

I'm with you on a whole raft of what you're saying - where I differ is that I don't believe 'crying foul' will have much affect, if any at all. That's not how markets evolve. The industry is ripe for disruption - which means new product offerings creating fresh markets, from the bottom upwards. If you haven't got it already I recommend you pick up and digest 'The Innovator's Dilemma' by C.M. Christensen.

 

[caesar]

I'm with you on a whole raft of what you're saying - where I differ is that I don't believe 'crying foul' will have much affect, if any at all. That's not how markets evolve. The industry is ripe for disruption - which means new product offerings creating fresh markets, from the bottom upwards. If you haven't got it already I recommend you pick up and digest 'The Innovator's Dilemma' by C.M. Christensen.

Opus111,

The high end industry has already been disrupted by the model you describe:


Apple created iTunes. As a result, people started downloading music through the internet in droves. Consumers started consuming music differently and also started to break out of the album model of music and demand individual tracks as opposed to entrire cd's. Digital tracks and compression, which results in convenience, has won out over quality, as people are able to listen to the songs of their choosing, in the order of their choosing, and on the device of their choosing.

High end who? High end what?

 

[FrantzM]

Opus111,

The high end industry has already been disrupted by the model you describe:


Apple created iTunes. As a result, people started downloading music through the internet in droves. Consumers started consuming music differently and also started to break out of the album model of music and demand individual tracks as opposed to entrire cd's. Digital tracks and compression, which results in convenience, has won out over quality, as people are able to listen to the songs of their choosing, in the order of their choosing, and on the device of their choosing.

High end who? High end what?

iTunes and the Internet model are part of a larger disruption .. The High End was affected of course but not by a large extent ... A stretch IMO... Those who buy from iTunes weren't buying Hi-End Audio before...