Can We / Should We "Balance" Our Way To Our Desired Sound?

[caesar]

I should have added....Only in my humble opinion.

I know, man. I am just teasing.

Your definition is actually very helpful, as all these years I had no idea what people meant by that term. But I actually have heard great dacs do it also on great recordings, even in show conditions.

 

[Jazzhead]

Bloom ... A very American descriptive term , if I may classify it as that !

 

[caesar]

With all due respect:

1) Absent being at the event when the recording was made, it is impossible to "determine" the sound of the original event that you are trying to recreate.

2) Absent having the access to the "master tape" or a very good transfer thereof, it is impossible to determine and replicate the sound of the master tape.

3) I agree with you. In the end, this hobby is totally subjective.

Best.

Dude,
Great stuff!

 

[caesar]

I should have added....Only in my humble opinion.

In a subjective and experiential hobby , everything is pretty much an opinion. so stating IMHO is quite redundant

 

[microstrip]

Inserted the Trinity pre in to my chain . Super low noise floor , demonic speed , great great control . However the chain now is all SS While an engrossing listen , it doesn't relax me into my chair A touch of the tube in the chain, will provide that intangible something , call it what you may.......pleasurable distortions , a touch of humanity / tonality .... So surely for me a matter of balance , subjective depending on the listeners experiences with live concerts and other gear .

Did you ever try a Vitus preamplfier in your system?

Although sometimes I mix preamplifier and amplifier brands, I prefer to use both of the same manufacturer.

 

[fas42]

The concept that makes sense, theoretically, and practically, for me, is the philosophical approach that it's all about subtracting Badness, not, adding Goodness. The end result will be, automatically: 2) reproduce exactly what is on the master tape; this method will require taking it as far and as precisely as it is possible to do, otherwise one can "lose the music" on the way - but the end game makes it all worthwhile!

Another advantage is that low cost gear can be lifted into the zone - it just requires more dedication, and knowledge to get there; unfortunately, the big disadvantage, for most, is that one will likely have to meddle with the internals of equipment, which many would to loath to do, or have others do for them ...

 

[Jazzhead]

Did you ever try a Vitus preamplfier in your system?

Although sometimes I mix preamplifier and amplifier brands, I prefer to use both of the same manufacturer.

Hi Micro , yes ... Lived with the two box Vitus MPL for a bit . The Trinity is up there , will try the Zanden monos on them ... Guess it will be a good match .

 

[thedudeabides]

What we do through reading other people's posts is benchmark those who have similar choices, for whatever reasons.

A benchmark based on individual, subjective experiences.

What kind of objective benchmark is this and how defensible is it?

 

[thedudeabides]

The concept that makes sense, theoretically, and practically, for me, is the philosophical approach that it's all about subtracting Badness, not, adding Goodness.

Could be the post of the thread. Badness, goodness.

 

[fas42]

Could be the post of the thread. Badness, goodness.

I've mentioned this before, several times :b ... most people see the process of improving the performance of their systems in terms of getting "better" amplifiers, speakers, source components - this is, adding goodness; another approach is listening to what one has at the time, being able to hear where there is a weakness somewhere in the whole, and working out why there is a deficit, and then adjusting, tuning the components or environment so that the weakness is overcome - this of course is, subtracting badness. If one is able to do it the latter way it's usually much better return on investment of time and money; and the system overall is more "robust" in terms of always extracting good replay from one's music collection.

 

[Ron Resnick]

With all due respect:

1) Absent being at the event when the recording was made, it is impossible to "determine" the sound of the original event that you are trying to recreate.

2) Absent having the access to the "master tape" or a very good transfer thereof, it is impossible to determine and replicate the sound of the master tape.

3) I agree with you. In the end, this hobby is totally subjective.

Best.

Strictly speaking dude, I agree with you on 1) and 2). My official formulation of the three objectives is aspirational.

I thank bonzo for explaining 1) and 2) in more realistic, less theoretical terms:

"I think by 1 Ron means our extrapolation of our live show experiences, so that the sound creates as close an illusion as practically possible of the concert halls we have been in.

By 2, there should be no added coloration, e.g. 300b or koetsu flavor. A bad recording should sound bad, a bright one bright, etc."

 

[Ron Resnick]

In a subjective and experiential hobby , everything is pretty much an opinion. so stating IMHO is quite redundant

You might be right. "In my opinion" might be implied.

Nonetheless, I believe adding "I think" or "to my ears" or "in my opinion" to posts of subjective opinions, impressions and reports lubricates the discussion and reduces consternation among people who disagree with the posted opinion, impression or report.

 

[bonzo75]

You might be right. "In my opinion" might be implied.

Nonetheless, I believe adding "I think" or "to my ears" or "in my opinion" to posts of subjective opinions, impressions and reports lubricates the discussion and reduces consternation among people who disagree with the posted opinion, impression or report.

That would make posts extremely long winder and boring. I could always add it in my signature. But I prefer the alternative, which is to cause consternation among those who disagree with my opinion...it's easier on me

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . .

As for 2 . . . "transparency to source” gear is just imparting an analytical coloration to the music, making many to think instead of getting lost in the "flow" and finding bliss. Unfortunately, Too many guys in this hobby listen to their stereos way too long and listen to sounds instead of music. So they get excited about a new detail they hear.

Others have been convinced by the brand marketing of a superior engineering approach. So they call analytic gear the "best": take any analytic product: Berkeley reference dac, magico q5/ q7, spectral, sanders magtech (a new born boy's balls look bigger than Sanders capacitors, so how can they deliver the needed current to drive anything???), etc.

Analytic / "transparency to source" is just a marketing segment that appeals to mindset of audiophiles who get sold the myth of better engineering, and they convince themselves to like that sound . . .

Respectfully, I think this goes too far. What you describe as the "analytic / transparency to source sound" (to devotees of such sound I suspect "analytic" is pejorative to start with) is not a sound I personally cotton to but I am very happy to defend it as a completely valid sonic preference.

The sound to which you refer (which I talk about, with respect to speakers, as "hyperfast-sounding" drivers) of Magico (I would add Tidal and Zellaton), Spectral, etc., is way more than a marketing or engineering approach. (I think such products embody amazing engineering and execution.)

Several people in whose ears I personally trust and respect and who like that sound consciously aim for that unadulterated, transparency-to-source sound which they find neutral, open, transparent, uncolored, detailed and realistic. They, obviously, do not find it to be a "coloration."

 

[microstrip]

You might be right. "In my opinion" might be implied.

Nonetheless, I believe adding "I think" or "to my ears" or "in my opinion" to posts of subjective opinions, impressions and reports lubricates the discussion and reduces consternation among people who disagree with the posted opinion, impression or report.

+1!

 

[morricab]

Respectfully, I think this goes too far. What you describe as the "analytic / transparency to source sound" (to devotees of such sound I suspect "analytic" is pejorative to start with) is not a sound I personally cotton to but I am very happy to defend it as a completely valid sonic preference.

The sound to which you refer (which I talk about, with respect to speakers, as "hyperfast-sounding" drivers) of Magico (I would add Tidal and Zellaton), Spectral, etc., is way more than a marketing or engineering approach. (I think such products embody amazing engineering and execution.)

Several people in whose ears I personally trust and respect and who like that sound consciously aim for that unadulterated, transparency-to-source sound which they find neutral, open, transparent, uncolored, detailed and realistic. They, obviously, do not find it to be a "coloration."

Ahh but Ron, the "analytical" sound that is usually (but not always) the domain of solid state amplification IS a coloration. It is associated to exaggerated leading edges and a lack of "body" and often truncated decay that makes things seem "fast". This is largely due to high order harmonics that accenuate the leading edges and affect perceived loudness. The truncated decay is from the sounds falling below an artificial, signal modulated, noise floor that is created by electronics using negative feedback. Tubes can also sound this way but it is less common and their colorations are usually (but not always) on the other side of the spectrum as they are largely (but not exclusively) from the output transformer coupling. OTLs with a lot of negative feedback (many of them) are very "fast" and transparent but also they tend to be a bit lean and "analytical". The transparency of a good OTL is very seductive as it is breathtaking the first time one hears it. Later though you start to hear the specific colorations and flaws.

Speakers like Magico, Zellaton etc. are not hyper-fast...electrostats and ribbons are at least as fast in term of actual response time. If they sound "hyper-fast" it is because of the electronics that they are usually paired with in most audition settings. Obviously, lack of cabinet colorations and driver resonances will not hurt the sense of "speed" as there is not the overhang and breakup that one gets in many lesser designs. Having heard now the Magicos many times I didn't find them to be "hyper" resolving or "hyper" fast. The Zellatons did sound that way but I think we were hearing the electronics causing this effect rather than the speaker per se. If these speakers are powered with appropriate amplification then you can get some rather spectacular results (like when the Rockports are driven by Absolare 845 monoblocks). I think good horns and/or electrostats/ribbons are better still but the best box speakers are now very good.

Spectral amps, while not bad for solid state are far from SOTA. They have their own particular coloration (see above) that gives the illlusion of speed but is really a foreshortening of decays and tonal balance is not natural and rather consistent between recordings. This is true of nearly all SS amps. Only those that don't use or use minimal amounts of negative feedback largely avoid this pitfall. Tube amps that use negative feedback also fail in this regard...in addition to other issues related to the output transformers! (most are too small and saturate)

Regardless of what those "trusted" people think, it is a coloration. To be sure there is no accounting for taste and they have chose this coloration over other ones that are available. If one listens to primarily amplified concerts or never goes to concerts I can see how the pursuit of that sound can come about. It can be very impressive...at first. Indeed nearly all of my hifi friends started their journey pursuing that kind of analytical "hyper detailed" sound. Nearly all have diverted towards something much more natural sounding and are more satisfied as a result. All I can say as one who frequents live, unamplified concerts (both at halls and in homes) is that is not the right sound based on what I hear live. It might be high end but it is lacking in beliveability for a number of reasons.

So, while they think it is uncolored, it is not, and while you might defend it as a valid choice, I cannot for the simple reason that what my ears tell me is correct from the real thing, "neutral/analytical" systems (usually the electronics fault in my experience) are further from correct (no system is truly correct) sound.

 

[bonzo75]

I agree box speakers are seldom fast, if at all. Stats and ribbons and horns are much faster, despite the low sensitivity of planars, due to the panel material.

I think while many might have such Spectral impressions, and I can see why, the point still is that it is an integral part of the possibly the best audiophile room around - and Marty went against normal logic to use VTL 7.5 mkIII preamp to drive those Spectral DMA 400s. Full Symphony on those is incredible.

 

[Bill Hart]

I agree box speakers are seldom fast, if at all. Stats and ribbons and horns are much faster, despite the low sensitivity of planars, due to the panel material.

I think while many might have such Spectral impressions, and I can see why, the point still is that it is an integral part of the possibly the best audiophile room around - and Marty went against normal logic to use VTL 7.5 mkIII preamp to drive those Spectral DMA 400s. Full Symphony on those is incredible.

\
Bonzo- isn't using the VTL preamp with the Spectral amp precisely one of those "balancing acts" that was at the core of the original post in this thread?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I agree box speakers are seldom fast, if at all. Stats and ribbons and horns are much faster, despite the low sensitivity of planars, due to the panel material.

I think while many might have such Spectral impressions, and I can see why, the point still is that it is an integral part of the possibly the best audiophile room around - and Marty went against normal logic to use VTL 7.5 mkIII preamp to drive those Spectral DMA 400s. Full Symphony on those is incredible.

I think it simply takes more effort to get a box speaker to sound fast; but it can be done. you simply need the right driver membranes which are fast enough (ribbon tweeter/ceramic mid range and woofers) and have enough driver surface to have minimal excursion, and be efficient enough to get the first watt to sound powerful. the advantage of a box speaker when you actually do that is complete cohesiveness through the mid bass and greater weight and authority.

of course there are degrees of sounding fast; the trick being to sound fast enough while retaining all the other advantages of a box speaker.

 

[bonzo75]

\
Bonzo- isn't using the VTL preamp with the Spectral amp precisely one of those "balancing acts" that was at the core of the original post in this thread?

Yes - Marty thought that impossible not to have valves in the system, so that's the way he went. The VTL has low impedance and high current. His system is very well thought out, and is one of the rare "systems", rather than a mash of components, where I find it tough to extrapolate why he gets the sound he does based on my "component" experience. He gets it because of his integration and matching.