CES 2013: Genesis Room with TechDAS Air Force One and Vertere Reference Tonearm

[microstrip]

I saw the first few posts on that thread - and I'm going to avoid it......

I think that Amir joke about the two tonearms comparison is too carefully written - we risk that people who are not following the other threads are taking it seriously!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Gary also did a test of the turntable vacuum system for me. I was very surprised that when he let out the vacuum pressure holding the LP down on the platter, all of a sudden I started to hear a lot of background noise (typical LP noise). And here is a fascinating psychoacoustics effect Bob Stuart of Merdian fame talks about: when he put the pressure back on, I started to hear the same scratches that I had not heard the first time with the same pressure on! While the level was much lower with pressure, the noise was audibly there. Yet, not knowing about it, had made me think the first time that it was completely absent. Once we get sensitized to an artifact, we can hear it much more readily. This also throws a monkey wrench into AB tests. Clearly my first observation was inaccurate since the noise was really there but I thought it was not!

it's really not possible to effectively A/B a tt platter with vaccuum hold down capability 'with and without'. the reason is that whatever is used for gasketing to retain the negative pressure will not be pressed down without the vaccuum. so your A/B has an additional factor in the platter-Lp interface and is not truely indicative of how it should sound without vaccuum hold down engaged and the platter did not have any vaccuum hold down mechanism. it likely even affects VTA and VTF to some small degree.

maybe the TechDAS has technology which eliminates this problem; if so i stand corrected and would be curious to know about it.

 

[amirm]

Great to have your opinion about Gary room. I enjoyed your opinions about the precedence effect - I have written about it in the past, not about artifacts but about the opposite - exceptionally good events!

Indeed I think that is also the angle Bob Stuart uses, talking about hearing guitar notes and such that were completely missed in previous listening runs. And how when you hear them with better equipment, you can go back and hear them still with lessor.

 

[amirm]

it's really not possible to effectively A/B a tt platter with vaccuum hold down capability 'with and without'. the reason is that whatever is used for gasketing to retain the negative pressure will not be pressed down without the vaccuum. so your A/B has an additional factor in the platter-Lp interface and is not truely indicative of how it should sound without vaccuum hold down engaged and the platter did not have any vaccuum hold down mechanism. it likely even affects VTA and VTF to some degree.

maybe the TechDAS has technology which eliminates this problem; if so i stand corrected and would be curious to know about it.

I am not informed enough to say . But on the surface I agree that a device designed to run with vacuum would not be in a position to work well without. Still, for someone like me who had no idea it would be audible in any amount, it was educational. I expected to hear warble and such from warped record, not the groove noise.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I am not informed enough to say . But on the surface I agree that a device designed to run with vacuum would not be in a position to work well without. Still, for someone like me who had no idea it would be audible in any amount, it was educational. I expected to hear warble and such from warped record, not the groove noise.

i owned the Rockport for 8 years with the vaccuum hold down; and 4 of those years i had other tt's without that feature right next to it. if i tried to play a record on the Rockport without vaccuum hold down, it became 'swimmy' because the Lp was bouncing along on the flexible gasket. i would expect that each implementation of vaccuum hold down would have it's own degree of effect when it's played without the vaccuum engaged; but it cannot be good.

when comparing side by side with other tt's without vaccuum hold down there were cases where the Rockport was quieter and more solid, and other cases where it was not. since i could not try other arms on the Rockport any comparisons were of limited value. obviously i moved on from the Rockport.

my point being that any conclusion you may have got from the process you described about the effect of vaccuum hold down is highly questionable.

too many variables.

and for the vast majority of Lp pressings and high level tt's record warps are not much of a factor. maybe depending on one's particular collection it might be more significant for some than others.

holding the record steady on the platter is important; but there are a number of ways to do that.

i believe in vaccuum hold down as a desirable feature, but not essential. what matters is the performance.

 

[A.wayne]

So is vacuum hold down necessary for sota or not .....?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

So is vacuum hold down necessary for sota or not .....?

no; not necessary. but properly implemented it is desirable. but there are other valid approaches to the platter-Lp interface.

some people (me not included) think that vaccuum hold down removes 'life' from the record....it overdamps the record. again; i don't personally think that myself having lived with it for 8 years.

some great tt's have vaccuum hold down; are they great because of it or in spite of it?

so i don't have any definitive answer for you. 'it depends'.

 

[A.wayne]

I'm concerned for Gary , what is he going to do ....


Thanks mike , i cant say for sure myself , i have heard both sound fantastic , but have never owned a Vacuum table ....

 

[amirm]

I saw in one booth someone screwing a weight the size of a CD on every LP. Is that good?

 

[garylkoh]

I'm concerned for Gary , what is he going to do ....

The gaskets used on the Air Force One are very thin and very soft silicone, and is supposed to affect this only minimally. But, as MikeL says, it's not valid unless the gaskets are not there. For those who believe that vacuum hold-down sucks the life out of the music, TechDAS provides for 6 types of top platter, 3 with vacuum hold-down and 3 without.

With an air bearing, a record weight is obviously not recommended as it could change the relationship of the air pressure and bearing tolerance.

 

[vinylphilemag]

With an air bearing, a record weight is obviously not recommended as it could change the relationship of the air pressure and bearing tolerance.

... Unless the air bearing was designed to be used with a record weight (my Forsell is an example of such). *Back to lurk mode*

 

[XV-1]

The gaskets used on the Air Force One are very thin and very soft silicone, and is supposed to affect this only minimally. But, as MikeL says, it's not valid unless the gaskets are not there. For those who believe that vacuum hold-down sucks the life out of the music, TechDAS provides for 6 types of top platter, 3 with vacuum hold-down and 3 without.

With an air bearing, a record weight is obviously not recommended as it could change the relationship of the air pressure and bearing tolerance.

Gary, do you have more than the one platter? If you do, what is the sound quality difference?.

What is the opinion of Techdas on the sound quality of the 6 different platters?

Cheers

 

[NorthStar]

BTW, I forgot to say that Gary's room was also one of my favorites. Sadly I forgot to take pictures of the rest of his room . Those speakers have incredible dynamics... Yet they don't have towering cathedral sound which I tend to dislike in larger speakers.

---- That is the strongest endorsement you can claim!
...Meaning that the music (listening) transported you where no pictures can! :b ...In heaven.

 

[NorthStar]

Gary, I was hoping that people would get my reference to the "great" micro/macro thread going on now. Nothing about the arms...

I saw the first few posts on that thread - and I'm going to avoid it......

---- It's for members living on the edge.

 

[garylkoh]

Gary, do you have more than the one platter? If you do, what is the sound quality difference?.

What is the opinion of Techdas on the sound quality of the 6 different platters?

Cheers

The stainless steel platter is more dynamic but harder sounding, the acrylic warmer and softer, the aluminum most neutral. The non-vacuum hold down platters are not as good because they result in more vinyl noise. I've only heard the acrylic and aluminum vacuum versions and far preferred the aluminum.

 

[garylkoh]

---- That is the strongest endorsement you can claim!
...Meaning that the music (listening) transported you where no pictures can! :b ...In heaven.

.... with angels singing

 

[NorthStar]

.... with angels singing

---- I believe that he spelled it "angles". :b
...But I did not bother of remanding* him about his spelling fault (typo).

* Reminding

 

[NorthStar]

...

Let me tell you, it was night and day. Once you listened to this one, the other sounded like trash. There was no micro or macro dynamics on the other. [Amir, you're a real funny guy, I like you!] The cheaper one was harsh as if it was digital. You could literally hear the needle drag on the sides of the grove! Go back to the $35,000 and boy, what a revelation. Angles were singing and you were transformed to somewhere with less crowds than CES!

...

---- I believe that he spelled it "angles". :b
...But I did not bother of remanding* him about his spelling fault (typo).

* Reminding

---- Yup, I was right; "angles".

* I, myself, make those type of typos often (I try to correct them afterwards by editing).
If I would write a letter, not so much; but from a keyboard, yes, often, and like several other people too.

I don't tell people no more; but "angles" was a good one to 'describe' (in replacement of) "angels".

:b

________________________

Amir is one individual person who is one of the most likeable people of the entire Internet.
...Not perfect (no one is), but near by. ...And same for you Gary. ...And there are other members too here, of course; several of them.
Why do you think I stick around?

 

[The Phantom]

Well, you walk into a thread after not reading for a few weeks and what do you find? For the very first time anywhere, Amir has declared himself more informed than any of the thousands of very satisfied customers and a bunch of reviwers; namely, that my 20 years of effort in tonearm design is trash, barely better than digital. Not that I turn a blind eye to meaningful comments, but previously the word out there has been to the complete contrary of Amir's decree.
Unfortunately, that's one of the inherent problems with threads and posts; ANYONE with access to a keyboard can be a "reviewer" and do countless damange to someone's life work with a tossed-out impression, whether it's right or wrong. These people are more interested in their agenda and "discovering" something that's revolutionary than in getting it right. Not to say that the $35k arm isn't great, because it probably is. Although only hearing it for a few moments I could not really comment. (However, a few others who DID hear it - and who spoke with me later - thought it was thin, and overly etched - just goes to show one person's wine is another's poison).
So, who's right? It only matters what the listener believes for themselves, and in controlled circumstances with most chances of complementary (or non-complementary) products in the chain.
I don't recall if Amir or others on this thread came to visit us in the exhibit room on the 35th floor, where I was exhibiting the "Elite" version of the Phantom. This is an upgraded version that is inherently designed for the AF-1 turntable, and by many accounts, was among the best sounding rooms at the show (which included Gary's Genesis too, of course).. We are the official U.S./Canada/S. America agent for the AF-1, but as I mused before the show, the thread seems to suggest that we were not even in the picture at CES. Especially for the esteemed Amir, apparently...!
Oh well, can't please them all. Better to work on pleasing those who have an open mind, rather than those who decide they know more than the others.... "Digital" Bob G.

Amir, thanks for a great write-up.

I would like to emphasize that the Graham Phantom is definitely NOT trash. Prior to hearing the Vertere, it was one of my two de-facto recommendations when my customers ask me for a tonearm recommendation depending on the turntable they were going to put it on. The other was the Roksan Artemiz.

It is a great tonearm, and I had optimized it to the best of my ability. We weren't even sure that the Vertere arm would be available for playback. Touraj was still building and tweaking it up to 5am of the morning before he had a 7:30am flight out of London. Then, when he got to Las Vegas, he discovered that his luggage had gone missing - with parts of the tonearm inside the luggage. So, until Touraj's luggage was found late Sunday night (good thing I persuaded him to fly in 2 days early!!) I was expecting to use the Graham to conduct the demos, and that was what I was optimizing the system for.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Well, you walk into a thread after not reading for a few weeks and what do you find? For the very first time anywhere, Amir has declared himself more informed than any of the thousands of very satisfied customers and a bunch of reviwers; namely, that my 20 years of effort in tonearm design is trash, barely better than digital. Not that I turn a blind eye to meaningful comments, but previously the word out there has been to the complete contrary of Amir's decree.
Unfortunately, that's one of the inherent problems with threads and posts; ANYONE with access to a keyboard can be a "reviewer" and do countless damange to someone's life work with a tossed-out impression, whether it's right or wrong. These people are more interested in their agenda and "discovering" something that's revolutionary than in getting it right. Not to say that the $35k arm isn't great, because it probably is. Although only hearing it for a few moments I could not really comment. (However, a few others who DID hear it - and who spoke with me later - thought it was thin, and overly etched - just goes to show one person's wine is another's poison).
So, who's right? It only matters what the listener believes for themselves, and in controlled circumstances with most chances of complementary (or non-complementary) products in the chain.
I don't recall if Amir or others on this thread came to visit us in the exhibit room on the 35th floor, where I was exhibiting the "Elite" version of the Phantom. This is an upgraded version that is inherently designed for the AF-1 turntable, and by many accounts, was among the best sounding rooms at the show (which included Gary's Genesis too, of course).. We are the official U.S./Canada/S. America agent for the AF-1, but as I mused before the show, the thread seems to suggest that we were not even in the picture at CES. Especially for the esteemed Amir, apparently...!
Oh well, can't please them all. Better to work on pleasing those who have an open mind, rather than those who decide they know more than the others.... "Digital" Bob G.

Of course Bob, what were those people who thought the arm "bright and etched" listening to? Did they bring their own reference LPs with them (truly doubt that) or judge the sound based upon just any record that happened to be playing on the table? That's certainly a perfect recipe for disaster. What day did they hear the system, etc.? Plus how were these people so brilliant to know what they were hearing was the arm and not the rest of the system?

But thin and etched? Hardly with the reference LPs that I brought to CES. I also can assure you that had that been the case, I would have been out of the room faster than you can say 01001!