Constellation Audio - just play flat and loud or Make Music? Just Expensive orGood?

[Elberoth]

Too bad you didn't have the proper XLR cable. The lack of extension in HF and a sensation of superior transparency is often what differenciates the avg and trully hi-end cables.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Too bad you didn't have the proper XLR cable. The lack of extension in HF and a sensation of superior transparency is often what differenciates the avg and trully hi-end cables.

Actually I think that you can add to that list Low frequency performance (combination of extension/control/lack of colorations) and resolution. We can agree to call transparency noise floor too

 

[Elberoth]

Yes, you are right,

 

[microstrip]

Sure, just sent them back the other day, so the darTZeel is playing non-stop again...
(...)
A few caveats: I got a 110V unit, while I usually prefer to run my amps on 220V. I do have separate taps for the amps, and 110/220V taps too, so the power was clean for both, but perhaps the Constellation would've run better on 220V. Also, I tested the stereo. Monoblocks could be quite a bit better too. Last thing, cables. I had to use a cheap XLR to connect the MSB to the Constellation pre, since the dealer didn't supply me with the long cable that I needed. The darTZeel was properly hooked up (RCA) with Kubala Elation cables.

(...)

Are you addressing the DartZeel NH 108B or the monoblocks? Can I ask what was the "cheap XLR" ?

 

[asiufy]

Are you addressing the DartZeel NH 108B or the monoblocks? Can I ask what was the "cheap XLR" ?

I was addressing the Constallation, and its differences to the 108...
The Constellations were 110V. darTZeel 108 is 220V.
The XLRs were this one: http://www.bettercables.com/xlr-balanced-interconnect-cables.aspx
Yes, they're not nearly up to the quality of the rest of the gear. But I needed at least 3m, and I had no other ICs that were that long...
So, overall, I consider that the Constellation were in disadvantage from the beginning.
I'll try to get them back for a 2nd go, when the Q7 arrives.


alexandre

 

[KeithR]

Too bad you didn't have the proper XLR cable. The lack of extension in HF and a sensation of superior transparency is often what differenciates the avg and trully hi-end cables.

On an XLR, shouldn't make that much difference.

 

[Priaptor]

Sure, just sent them back the other day, so the darTZeel is playing non-stop again...

First, let me tell you what surprised me: it doesn't sound as "powerful" as it should. I mean, 500W and the darTZeel has more slam.

The biggest difference to the darTZeel is on the high frequencies. The Constellation gear is simply not as extended. It makes the sound "nicer" with bad recordings, but it does obscure some of the ambience retrievel magic that the darTZeel is capable of.

It's also more generally laid back than the darTZeel, which is a more "nervous" and in-your-face. The sound stage was presented waaaay there in the back, while the darTZeel adds more layers. Again, for badly recorded music, it's "nice" to have the music presented calmly there in the back, but I prefer a more natural presentation, even if that means "in your face" sound.

It can't touch the darTZeel on sheer naturalness as well, perhaps because of those little deficiencies. Voices and instruments are just more palpable, more real, with the darTZeel. Imaging was about the same for both, not absolutely crazy pin-point 3D imaging, but that's not something I look for much anyway...

On certain material, I found it to have a little more mid bass presence, a little more energy around instruments and voices. Again, the perception was of a "nice" sound, thick and full, yet detailed.

Overall, the gear left a very good impression, mostly because it managed to get very close to my current preference. It manages to be very transparent, while also being a little dark (that lack of HF extension).

A few caveats: I got a 110V unit, while I usually prefer to run my amps on 220V. I do have separate taps for the amps, and 110/220V taps too, so the power was clean for both, but perhaps the Constellation would've run better on 220V. Also, I tested the stereo. Monoblocks could be quite a bit better too. Last thing, cables. I had to use a cheap XLR to connect the MSB to the Constellation pre, since the dealer didn't supply me with the long cable that I needed. The darTZeel was properly hooked up (RCA) with Kubala Elation cables.

I'd buy these if I didn't have the darTZeel. BUT, I still haven't heard the current darlings, the D'Agostinos

alexandre

I haven't listened to the darTZeel, but I did have the Centaur with Q1s for awhile and the combination just didn't move me much. I agree just about all your points but in my case, I was comparing two entirely different systems. I found the Constellation a better match with the Q1s than my ARC REF250s but my NOLA Baby Grands with the ARC REF250s were in a whole different category. The Constellation on the Nolas were also nothing to write home about. I must admit with all they hype of the Q1 + Constellation combo with the MIT Matrix system I was expecting more.

 

[Elberoth]

On an XLR, shouldn't make that much difference.

I respectfully disagree. In my experience, differencies between XLR cabes are eaqual to RCA ones.

 

[NMMark1962]

Does anyone have any experience listening to the Hercules monoblocks and the Altair line stage?? Is Constellation afraid of showing their Reference line at shows, instead relying on their Performance Series?? I too do not care what a certain 'expert" editor claims this stuff to be....I would rather hear what the folks lurking around WBF think of the Reference line....if they have heard it....

Cheers,

 

[caesar]

Uh...yeah. If you really believe in an open discussion and you really believe it's "all good," it's probably not good to begin the discussion with the idea that if you're on the other side of these "differences," you're not a music lover, and have chosen is a thinner presentation. That's calling for sharing experiences that are all good as long as the full, rich, warm, fleshed-out club is free to insult everyone who doesn't agree with them. Sorry to be so blunt, but there it is.

Oh and by the way, the reason why linear performance is considered "more high fidelity," is because it demonstrates a higher level of fidelity to the input signal. It's not a matter of taste, and you don't have to like the way it sounds.

Tim

Phelonious, there are millions of people who listen to poorly recorded and compressed music on their ear-buds at work and in the subway and millions who enjoy listening to music in their cars despite the compression and high traffic noise. And, of course, these people are music lovers. In our hobby, it seems we have 2 main camps. One camp is interested in measurements as the primary end all, be all. This camp believes that gear can be assessed before purchase based on objective criteria. Another camp, however, sees high end audio as an experiential products whose value can only be assessed after they are purchased or evaluated for a long time. We, in this second camp, evaluate gear subjectively and often find that gear that measures well sounds cold and emotionally dead. We see your camp apply basic arithmetic (vs. calculus) to solve physics problems. I'm sure your camp thinks that we are clueless, confused, uneducated, irrational blockheads and mystics, who are wasting thousands of dollars when a few hundred bucks will build a "high fidelity" system, and you guys feel we need to be "saved". I'm fine that and don't take it personally.

We have different premises that lead to different conclusions. I hate to be a pessimist, but the differences will never be bridged. Neither side will convince another side, and having succinctly stated the main differences between the 2 camps above, I find the arguments in the threads that go on and on, quite boring. I guess time will eventually tell which camp is refusing to see the facts/ refusing to know reality, but for now, we can just agree to disagree.

By the way, it is my understanding that your camps's "favorite" reviewer and one of our camps most esteemed reviewers, Michael Fremer will be reviewing the Constellation gear. Fremer has had some killer amps in his lair in the last year or 2, and unlike the worthless Robert Harley, will actually be comparing gear to stuff he has heard so we can understand the differences. That review should be out in a month or 2.

 

[wizard]

View attachment 11350

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Virgo inside.

 

[egidius]

I like those Valvets!
Had an early Version, before going Berning Zotl..

 

[Elberoth]

Anyone heard about the new CONSTELLATION AUDIO Argo Integrated Amplifier ?

'A 125W/ch amplifier based on the Centaur and the 4-input preamp section from Virgo.'

 

[caesar]

Apparently Valin has dropped these as his references. He chose the new Soulutions instead.

Don't know what to make sense of anything in the Analytic Sound/ Magico Standard these days. Still waiting on Fremer to make sense of things...

 

[Elberoth]

He probably had those on a long term loan ... loan ended, so he took another one. Nothing to be really exited about.

 

[caesar]

He probably had those on a long term loan ... loan ended, so he took another one. Nothing to be really exited about.

You may be right, but that's not how it read in the magazine...

 

[marten]

my observations as a non-techie who has read many a debate by designers, audio techs about "the best design" and best technical reasons why by measurements:

1. I am not convinced there is agreement that we know everything that needs to be measured to make a 'perfect reproduction'.

2. It does seem obvious that since there is no perfect reproduction, every design is a particular blend of compromises...and that effectively the kind of distortion one cares about or is sensitive to will vary by person and by designer. I would not be surprised if someone measured the equipment i tend to like, that we would find there are certain levels of distortion on certain things i don't care about....which someone else would hate...and some where i am incredibly picky and will not stand for anything that does measure."almost perfectly".

For example, we can talk about thd and someone will say look at imd. On an even more basic level, i have relatives with slight high frequency hearing loss...trust me when i say they do not care about inverted titanium dome tweeters vs silk dome tweeters...they just turn down the bass and turn up the treble so they can understand the news on the radio. Complete distortion...but that is probably perfectly flat response in their head.

So i find for me that the lack of consensus around great designers as to what to measure, and how to prioritize the amount or level of distortion of each kind of distortion...mixed with the fact that many of us may in fact hear slightly differently...means that while measurements are a great baseline...there is good reason to gauge by ear in the end.

amen !!!

 

[LL21]

My observations as a non-techie who has read many a debate by designers, audio techs about "the best design" and best technical reasons why by measurements:

1. I am not convinced there is agreement that we know everything that needs to be measured to make a 'perfect reproduction'.

2. It does seem obvious that since there is no perfect reproduction, every design is a particular blend of compromises...and that effectively the kind of distortion one cares about or is sensitive to WILL vary by person and by designer. I would not be surprised if someone measured the equipment I tend to like, that we would find there are certain levels of distortion on certain things I don't care about....which someone else would hate...and some where I am incredibly picky and will not stand for anything that does measure."almost perfectly".

For example, we can talk about THD and someone will say look at IMD. On an even more basic level, I have relatives with slight high frequency hearing loss...trust me when I say they do not care about inverted titanium dome tweeters vs silk dome tweeters...they just turn down the bass and turn up the treble so they can understand the news on the radio. Complete distortion...but that is probably perfectly flat response in their head.

So I find for me that the lack of consensus around great designers as to what to measure, and how to prioritize the amount or level of distortion of each KIND of distortion...mixed with the fact that many of us may in fact hear slightly differently...means that while measurements are a great baseline...there is good reason to gauge by ear in the end.

amen !!!

Hi Marten, thanks and welcome aboard...looks like your first post from what I can see. Hope you'll be joining and contributing further.

 

[marten]

Thanks

Hi Marten, thanks and welcome aboard...looks like your first post from what I can see. Hope you'll be joining and contributing further.

Thank you

 

[caesar]

All, I just noticed that this gear is already on version 2. Tastes aside, if this was truly a team of "best and brightest" who designed this gear, why the hell do they go about changing it after only 2 years or so in the marketplace? Something smells very fishy here...