Crystal Disc US$1600 was played with Genesis Speaker
- Thread starter andymodern
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Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
we will need a second Playback Designs MPS-5 which can be on a separate shelf not on the Herzan TS-150. it's not a quick thing to remove the Herzan from beneath my gear, and the Herzan works very very good even in passive mode. so you cannot just turn it off.
Bruce has an MPS-5 that hopefully he can bring.
I'd be happy with just simple blind listening. Let the objectivist change the sources and keep the notes. Amir would be perfect.
Tim
I find this thread fascinating on many levels. It's funny to see digit lovers attack another digital format. I was surprised to see Tim of all people question Andy's claims that his $1600 CDs sound better than 33 and 45 RPM LPs. I thought that Tim would figure any $.50 CD blank recorded with digital music would smoke any LP regardless of speed. When Andy played fast and loose with his comment that his $1600 CD sounded better than 33 and 45 RPM LPs, of course members of the LP vanguard had to challenge that claim and ask what LPs, what table, arm, cartridge, and phono preamp.
Other people simply claim it's impossible for any digital file to sound different regardless of the format it was recorded on. The old "bits are bits" argument is still alive and well. The thing that I found most interesting was Andy's comment that the recording engineer played the $1600 disc and compared it to the original source file and the $1600 CD sounded brighter. "Brighter" is never a good word in my digital dictionary and usually infers something bad has happened and should be a clue as to how these discs would sound when compared against the source file. The other thing that strikes me odd about the premise for this new $1600 format is that after much questioning and backpedaling, this new format is only stated to be better than RBCD. If I'm reading this thread correctly, the $1600 CD will not sound better than a hi-rez file or DSD. If so, I don't understand who the target market is outside of Hong Kong and China (admittedly big markets with just China in the mix) when Hi-Rez downloads are available all over the world at cheap prices.
Bruce's experiment should be very interesting if for nothing else to put the sound quality of the $1600 CD into perspective. If it only sounds better than the CD equivalent, that is a big yawn for me. Even if it somehow managed to sound better than all other formats (which I don't believe for a second), few people in this country would shell out $1600 for one CD. Digital people are spoiled. Every year digital stuff gets better and becomes cheaper. Lots of people who are into the digits think music should be free and balk at paying more than a few bucks for a download or a CD. That's why Hi-Rez hasn't taken off more than it already has because many digit lovers think paying $20-$30 for a Hi-Rez download is highway robbery and meanwhile back at the ranch, they can't tell a low bit-rate MP3 from a RBCD anyway.
Things have been a little boring around WBF lately and this thread has energized all parties so I guess that is a good thing. It does mean that Andy has taken a verbal beating even if in the translation he doesn't quite understand that possibly. If Andy has found a market that is dedicated to playing back the RBCD format and is willing to pay $1600 for each CD, more power to him. I think I read that Andy sold 50 of the CDs at the Hong Kong show which amounts to $80,000. If the same discs sold at $15 each, Andy would have had to sell 5,333 of them to make the same amount of money. Look, if you can convince people who have lots of disposable income that CDs made from goat scrotums covered in a layer of YAK snot sound better than any CD in their collection and help make their wallets lighter, more power to you.
Other people simply claim it's impossible for any digital file to sound different regardless of the format it was recorded on. The old "bits are bits" argument is still alive and well. The thing that I found most interesting was Andy's comment that the recording engineer played the $1600 disc and compared it to the original source file and the $1600 CD sounded brighter. "Brighter" is never a good word in my digital dictionary and usually infers something bad has happened and should be a clue as to how these discs would sound when compared against the source file. The other thing that strikes me odd about the premise for this new $1600 format is that after much questioning and backpedaling, this new format is only stated to be better than RBCD. If I'm reading this thread correctly, the $1600 CD will not sound better than a hi-rez file or DSD. If so, I don't understand who the target market is outside of Hong Kong and China (admittedly big markets with just China in the mix) when Hi-Rez downloads are available all over the world at cheap prices.
Bruce's experiment should be very interesting if for nothing else to put the sound quality of the $1600 CD into perspective. If it only sounds better than the CD equivalent, that is a big yawn for me. Even if it somehow managed to sound better than all other formats (which I don't believe for a second), few people in this country would shell out $1600 for one CD. Digital people are spoiled. Every year digital stuff gets better and becomes cheaper. Lots of people who are into the digits think music should be free and balk at paying more than a few bucks for a download or a CD. That's why Hi-Rez hasn't taken off more than it already has because many digit lovers think paying $20-$30 for a Hi-Rez download is highway robbery and meanwhile back at the ranch, they can't tell a low bit-rate MP3 from a RBCD anyway.
Things have been a little boring around WBF lately and this thread has energized all parties so I guess that is a good thing. It does mean that Andy has taken a verbal beating even if in the translation he doesn't quite understand that possibly. If Andy has found a market that is dedicated to playing back the RBCD format and is willing to pay $1600 for each CD, more power to him. I think I read that Andy sold 50 of the CDs at the Hong Kong show which amounts to $80,000. If the same discs sold at $15 each, Andy would have had to sell 5,333 of them to make the same amount of money. Look, if you can convince people who have lots of disposable income that CDs made from goat scrotums covered in a layer of YAK snot sound better than any CD in their collection and help make their wallets lighter, more power to you.
My reaction to this sort of thing is that it's almost an insult to the people who originally came up with the whole idea of digital recording, and the engineers who implemented the elegant systems that make the integrity of the data *completely* independent of the 'quality' of the medium. The very earliest CD players did it: the DAC clocked by a crystal, and the mechanism slaved to it, the data buffered, so that a cheap plastic disc and flimsy mechanism were, and are, absolutely identical in performance to a gold plated glass disc and 300 kg 'transport'. To question it, is to embrace ignorance and superstition, and to reject a truly beautiful idea.
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Of course, it might also be that Andy has enough supporters willing to vote with their wallet that he is giving them better sound and is not concerned by a few brow beaters on WBF. I also feel a bit sheepish as I was the one who invited Andy to participate here.
Last I heard, Winston has 1,500 subscribers who pay $300 for any UDM that he puts out. Most of these are also in China, Hong Kong and Taiwan.
Lest you think that Andy is in this for the money..... His father father founded the recording company, and told him to stay in it as long as he doesn't lose too much of the family fortune because they need to support the musicians.
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
An Insult? To question it is ignorant? Wow with thinking like that it would be hard to evolve. Nothing is perfect. Not even perfect sound forever.
So you consider the number of people willing to shell out big bucks for a particular gimmick more compelling evidence of improved sound quality than a panel of committed audiophiles being able to actually hear (or not hear) a difference in a double blind test? You got to be kidding.
it's probably helpful to Andy to face skeptics here on WBF and figure what angle of communications will work for the North American audiophile. some 'marketing statements' might not translate here as well as others. no doubt WBF is more 'format-aware' than his HK audience typically might be.
for instance; if he were to advertise these discs in Stereophile or on AudiogoN with some of the statements he made initially on this thread his product would be ridiculed. he has to modify and refine his claims so his product can deliver on what he states.
we are a good test market i think.
Gary, liking his product and respecting him and his father is different than agreeing with his marketing rhetoric.
i have some of Winston's special discs too. they do sound wonderful for redbook. but i have a barn full of better media in other formats so i cannot justify acquiring lots of redbook special discs.....i have hundreds and hundreds of 'so-called' super CD's of various types already.
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This is a "status" product, much like a Porsche 918 Spyder...and, no I'm not making a comparison, only an observation. The buyers IMO aren't overly concerned if this Crystal CD isn't demonstrated to be the best of all RBCD's. I would probably not be wrong if I said the HK/China audiophile is a different audiophile then the rest of the world.
I remember walking through the Singapore tax free shop and asking a sales assistant if they actually sell any bottles of the $1500 bottle of cognac on the shelf (brand escapes me). She looks at me incredulously and tells me "sir, this is our best selling cognac" (I'm not making this up). So may be the crystal disc is a winner on the Asian market....
At less these people have listened to the crystal CDs. Currently the panel of committed audiophiles is at most just imagining how the bits will sound.
Curious that some people prefer to kill the messenger than listening to the message.
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I have read several HK and Asian high-end magazines in the 90's and early 2000's, as a good friend worked for an airline company flying there very often, and sometimes spend some time navigating through their sites. Most of these people have a passionate but deep and elucidated knowledge about the hobby that surpasses the mean western audiophile. Unfortunately many people just sees the tip of the iceberg and IMHO gets the wrong idea.
steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Hey Mike
If you wouldn't mind giving me some notice of when this is going down I'd like to fly up for the day and participate
If you wouldn't mind giving me some notice of when this is going down I'd like to fly up for the day and participate
as a person who has invested as much in high perfomance music media recordings as almost anyone out there, i feel i have the right to challenge the credibility of a product like this. it's not like i'm just being negative without doing the work myself to have some basis to comment.
i've been very very open to all ways to find the best sounding media from every format regardless of price. i ordered the 3rd series of the Tape Project in 1/2", $6000 plus shipping for 10 titles prepaid 2 years ago....i've recieved 3 so far.
i did not dismiss this product when i read about it, i asked for specifics about the circumstances of the claims, at which point those claims were backed away from.
i do not see any unreasonable dismissing out of hand of what this product may or may not do beyond the initial over zealous cliams that were backed away from.
we are organizing some investigations keeping our minds open.
it seems to be proceeding as well as could be expected.
I the message completely lacks plausibility, I think some healthy skepticism is warranted. The null hypothesis is this is a hoax, it is incumbent on the messenger to prove it is not through double blind testing.
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