Crystal Disc US$1600 was played with Genesis Speaker

[microstrip]

as a person who has invested as much in high perfomance music media recordings as almost anyone out there, i feel i have the right to challenge the credibility of a product like this. it's not like i'm just being negative without doing the work myself to have some basis to comment.

i've been very very open to all ways to find the best sounding media from every format regardless of price. i ordered the 3rd series of the Tape Project in 1/2", $6000 plus shipping for 10 titles prepaid 2 years ago....i've recieved 3 so far.

i did not dismiss this product when i read about it, i asked for specifics about the circumstances of the claims, at which point those claims were backed away from.

i do not see any unreasonable dismissing out of hand of what this product may or may not do beyond the initial over zealous cliams that were backed away from.

we are organizing some investigations keeping our minds open.

it seems to be proceeding as well as could be expected.

Mike,
You are one of those of those who are going to listen to the message - so you could not have killed the messenger!
I added "some" to my post to made it more clear.

 

[Bruce B]

Hey Mike

If you wouldn't mind giving me some notice of when this is going down I'd like to fly up for the day and participate

That would be great!

 

[microstrip]

I the message completely lacks plausibility, I think some healthy skepticism is warranted. The null hypothesis is this is a hoax, it is incumbent on the messenger to prove it is not through double blind testing.

The main idea of the message - some type of special CD is said to sound better in some CD players - does not lack plausibility, as many of us agree that different CD transports or even different bit exact CD media sound different. The healthy skepticism is welcome, as well as the listening tests.
Unfortunately the messenger did a very poor job presenting his product, full of technical in-congruences and errors.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

That would be great!

+1.

Steve, i hope that it works out for you to be here.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I find this thread fascinating on many levels. It's funny to see digit lovers attack another digital format. I was surprised to see Tim of all people question Andy's claims that his $1600 CDs sound better than 33 and 45 RPM LPs. I thought that Tim would figure any $.50 CD blank recorded with digital music would smoke any LP regardless of speed. When Andy played fast and loose with his comment that his $1600 CD sounded better than 33 and 45 RPM LPs, of course members of the LP vanguard had to challenge that claim and ask what LPs, what table, arm, cartridge, and phono preamp.

You thought correctly. I figure that any CD that isn't broken carries a closer facsimile of whatever source it came from than any vinyl record, regardless of speed, but we all knew that's what I figured. I referenced Andy's full claim because I thought it's full impact was worth examining. And because I know the audience here. Better bits from crisper pits is an unlikely idea that would have been accepted without scrutiny by a pretty large contingent on WBF. Any form of digital sounding "better" than a 45 rpm LP would definitely get a closer look.

Other people simply claim it's impossible for any digital file to sound different regardless of the format it was recorded on. The old "bits are bits" argument is still alive and well.

I think the people you're talking about believe that digital playback can vary for a lot of reasons, but none of those reasons have to do with the digital file, if it has been error corrected and matches the source. And yes, that's because on is on and off is off.

Tim

 

[Groucho]

There is a school of thought that says that because a commercial product exists, it must be evidence of demand, and/or a solution to a real problem. If this were the case, then the reaction of "Let's test it" would be sensible. But products, especially in audio, do not always come into being for any reason other than 'mischief', and if you wanted to test them all you'd have no time for anything else.

Having said that, it could just be a luxury product, like a book with a deluxe binding, in which case everyone could see that it was merely a nicer way of presenting some information, and making the experience of taking in that information more enjoyable.

But in this case, the 'deluxe book' can only be enjoyed through an intermediate Optical Character Recognition device (your CD player) that either gets the characters right or it doesn't, so it's like buying a $1600 special limited edition binding of Pride and Prejudice, having someone scan it into your PC for you via an OCR application, and then reading it off the computer screen. You can perform extensive ABX testing of the experience of reading the book if you like, but you can see in advance that if the characters are identical between A and B, it won't be worth it.

Buying a better PC monitor might improve the experience, or a very nice printer, but the source of the digits is immaterial as long as they come through unchanged - which is easy to test without the rigmarole of reading the book several times.

 

[HedgeHog]

Just got a confirmation from Andy that the Crystal disc and all materials will ship soon!

Thx for the commitment and doing this! If someone would be kind enough to document this event and post it up for the rest of us, it would be so appreciated. Should Maury Povich (or is it Montel Williams) be waiting in the wings with the announcement?

 

[NorthStar]

cool.

hopefully we will have regular production CD versions of this Crystal Disc to establish a baseline as well as the source files.

Mike, I'll repay you handsomely if you can send me a regular CD copy of that Crystal Disc. :b
I won't tell no one.

 

[NorthStar]

Of course, it might also be that Andy has enough supporters willing to vote with their wallet that he is giving them better sound and is not concerned by a few brow beaters on WBF. I also feel a bit sheepish as I was the one who invited Andy to participate here.

Last I heard, Winston has 1,500 subscribers who pay $300 for any UDM that he puts out. Most of these are also in China, Hong Kong and Taiwan.

Lest you think that Andy is in this for the money..... His father father founded the recording company, and told him to stay in it as long as he doesn't lose too much of the family fortune because they need to support the musicians.

Gary don't; you did yourself, Andy, and all of us a great favor. Be proud, real proud of this; Andy is in excellent company here among all the smart WBF members.
And we are all grateful to you, and to Andy too; for what he informed us of all, and for his exchange with Bruce.
...And to Bruce for his brilliant idea, and his brand new purchase of one Crystal Disc.

I think that it is awesomely fantastic everything that is happening and that is going to happen, at Mike's place (music room).

And not only that but I talked to a pro musician earlier today. His entire life was spent in music recording studios, touring, performing, and he knows a thing or two about master albums, R2R tapes (and open-reel tape recorders), and CDs, and all that Irish jazz music. He is not an audiophile per se, but his music wisdom is valuable nonetheless.
I gave him the link of this very exact thread here. ...So that he can read it all, and form his own opinion for the moment.
And who knows, he might even join us at one point, if he feels like it.

No Gary, don't regret anything in life; everything is worth examining for everyone's higher learning. ...In the best interest of the Music, with a greater, improved sound quality.
The music medium is of the utmost importance; the essence by which the artist is represented in the best way possible.

The rest is easy, our job, to get the right gear, for that new "thing" (Crystal Disc to us here in North America). :b

 

[garylkoh]

Gary

Point well taken however IMO you are comparing apples and oranges. Same can be said for speakers and components but seriously is this disk truly better than an R2R tape of the same music and only costs $300 but should sound better or am I mistaken.

I don't believe that the disc will be better than a R2R tape from the same source. Nor do I believe that the Crystal Disc will sound better than the original DSD source.

But that tape (and high-rez file) is not commercially available. With the CD, the recording artists are being paid for their work. With none of the music labels I know releasing new tapes, except for the Tape Project and companies making new recordings with artists who are not contracted with one of the major labels, I wonder how those tapes are being released? Or are they bootlegs shared among tape enthusiasts?

Without Andy's support, some of these musicians may never have seen the light of day. He mis-stated here, but in 3 days in Hong Kong, we never discussed the Crystal Disc being better than LP. Tape has not ever entered the conversation in all my discussions with music lovers anywhere but here on WBF. In Hong Kong, the maturity of the music server is probably equivalent to 2005, when Arnie and others ridiculed me that a computer could play music with any fidelity at all.....

 

[NorthStar]

If Steve is going, perhaps I should come to? ...And Tim too? ...And I can bring my brand new girlfriend; she's real hot! :b

 

[garylkoh]

No Gary, don't regret anything in life; everything is worth examining for everyone's higher learning. ...In the best interest of the Music, with a greater, improved sound quality.
The music medium is of the utmost importance; the essence by which the artist is represented in the best way possible.

The rest is easy, our job, to get the right gear, for that new "thing" (Crystal Disc to us here in North America). :b

Thanks, Bob.

In the end, without music all the gear would not amount to anything. I have a vested interest in promoting music labels who care about quality, because without the music, who would buy my speakers? Just buy an iPod and a set of earbuds. There are huge numbers of music lovers who only play CDs. Except for those who believe "perfect sound forever" ended in the early 80's there are many who want better sound from their CDs.

 

[garylkoh]

If Steve is going, perhaps I should come to? ...And Tim too? ...And I can bring my brand new girlfriend; she's real hot! :b

Make it a WBF party in Mike's room

Andy, bring one of your artists and fly on over......

 

[jazdoc]

Make it a WBF party in Mike's room

Andy, bring one of your artists and fly on over......

Oooh, oooh, pick me, pick me; I wanna play too!

 

[MylesBAstor]

One doesn't have to spend $1600 to be fooled

I think this thread says a lot about the fallibility of our references?

 

[NorthStar]

- I'm a digital man (CD, HDCD, SACD, DVD-Audio, Blu-ray, ...).
- I'm an analog man (LP; 33 1/3 and 45, cassette tape?..., analog r.a.d.i.o. with analog meter and analog tuning dial, analog antenna, analog PC, Youtube, analog phone with analog "round" dial, analog SPL meter from Radio Shack, ...).
- "I'm a tattoo man" - Johnny Winter

* Can Carl come too? :b

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, I'll repay you handsomely if you can send me a regular CD copy of that Crystal Disc. :b
I won't tell no one.

as the Crystal Disc is Bruce's, you need to ask Bruce about that.....but I would expect him to share like he typically does.

and you are most welcome to come for this event; I've invited you before to visit me when you can as you know. I hope you (and your girlfriend) can make it.

 

[NorthStar]

Ok; Bruce, if you can send me a copy (CD regular disc format) of that Crystal Disc, I'll pay for your time and expense. ...Or perhaps we can make a trade.
...I can send you a CD-R Maxell Pro Music with music on it that I'm sure you'd fall in love all over again with.

Thanks Mike, you're one of my favorite people of all the other audio forum people of the entire Internet.
Seattle is not that far from where I am, but I believe that I would have to renew my passport (it ain't like it used to be).
I'm from another country, Canada.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Oooh, oooh, pick me, pick me; I wanna play too!

this is those little 1's and 0's you know. lasers. digital readouts. sliding trays. no grooves or musty cardboard.

if you can handle all that stuff then yes, please come and give us some mono vinyl when appropriate for cultural balance.

 

[audioarcher]

One doesn't have to spend $1600 to be fooled

I think this thread says a lot about the fallibility of our references?

If George Carlin was still with us I'm sure he would have lots of funny things to say about our little hobby.