David Karmeli’s Bionor/Lamm/AS-2000 Audio System

[Amir]

I don't think any number of Quads will be able to play orchestral music convincingly? (question mark since I can't say since I've never heard anything other than a single pair). Or even solo keyboard music experienced from the first ten rows. One of my favorite solo keyboard concerts was hearing a recital of Schumann, Rachmaninoff, Schubert's song transcriptions by Liszt, and the most beautiful Aria from GV.

From the 3rd row the power of a concert grand is simply remarkable. I don't have the vocabulary to describe those sort of religious experiences when sound and performance match up. I don't think that too would be capable on any number of Quads, the dynamic range is too great.

And what about comb filtering and frequency cancellations when you stack panels like that?

(any solo keyboard lovers, if you have a chance to see Sergei Babayan, do not miss it! For me one of the greatest current recording/performing pianists)

Maybe my experience is not enough but what I heard from all panel speakers like Manger, Quad, Martin Logan, Magnepan all of them were not perfect in dynamics. Yes those panels have better feeling of transparency than dynamic drivers at similar price but finally panel speakers are not my favorite for high level systems.

 

[Amir]

If you read the story of linus torvalds (programmer of linux OS) you will see how a better thinking/method can help in more complex tasks/projects.
Look at Romy the Cat he has SET/Horn
Look at David @ddk he has SET/Horn
Jim Smith had SET/Horn
Kevin Scott has SET/Horn

I do not say those SET/Horns are perfect in every respect but I think the linux approach in audio will be SET/Horn.
Romy the Cat extended this approach to multi channel SET(DSET)/horn.

 

[adyc]

If you read the story of linus torvalds (programmer of linux OS) you will see how a better thinking/method can help in more complex tasks/projects.
Look at Romy the Cat he has SET/Horn
Look at David @ddk he has SET/Horn
Jim Smith had SET/Horn
Kevin Scott has SET/Horn

I do not say those SET/Horns are perfect in every respect but I think the linux approach in audio will be SET/Horn.
Romy the Cat extended this approach to multi channel SET(DSET)/horn.

Where do you get Jim Smith has SET/Horn?

 

[bonzo75]

Where do you get Jim Smith has SET/Horn?

he was avantgarde distributor in the US, introduced AG to US and then now has tannoy with solid state

 

[adyc]

he was avantgarde distributor in the US, introduced AG to US and then now has tannoy with solid state

Ok, he got 50% right.

 

[Amir]

Jim Smith was distributor of Audiopax SET and Avantgarde horns.

 

[adyc]

Jim Smith was distributor of Audiopax SET and Avantgarde horns.

The keyword is “was”.

 

[bonzo75]

Jim Smith was distributor of Audiopax SET and Avantgarde horns.

was he doing it with the old audiopax 300b or the KT88

 

[MarcelNL]

So, after all this time the quest has come to an end, I've analyzed all the measured data and done that again....the Bionor horn is not the magical part I once thought it was ...it's a mere segment of a circle.
My audio OCD would not let go but now I can, so the design for my in house system can change now I have cleared this long standing question.

 

[Maril555]

So, after all this time the quest has come to an end, I've analyzed all the measured data and done that again....the Bionor horn is not the magical part I once thought it was ...it's a mere segment of a circle.
My audio OCD would not let go but now I can, so the design for my in house system can change now I have cleared this long standing question.

So, what are some of the general conclusions that you’ve come up with?

 

[MarcelNL]

that I'll adapt as needed, but will stick to a large baffle and FLH design.
I think they sound great and quite natural, as expected, which is also enhanced when compared to the current high end 'sound fingerprint' which IMHO is overly detailed sound stage oriented.

My Bionor based 'Trionor' prototype using full range units sounded great so I'll go with that.

 

[jeff1225]

that I'll adapt as needed, but will stick to a large baffle and FLH design.
I think they sound great and quite natural, as expected, which is also enhanced when compared to the current high end 'sound fingerprint' which IMHO is overly detailed sound stage oriented.

My Bionor based 'Trionor' prototype using full range units sounded great so I'll go with that.

Can you share a picture of these Trionors?

 

[PeterA]

So, after all this time the quest has come to an end, I've analyzed all the measured data and done that again....the Bionor horn is not the magical part I once thought it was ...it's a mere segment of a circle.
My audio OCD would not let go but now I can, so the design for my in house system can change now I have cleared this long standing question.

Please remind me, what was the question you were asking?

 

[morricab]

that I'll adapt as needed, but will stick to a large baffle and FLH design.
I think they sound great and quite natural, as expected, which is also enhanced when compared to the current high end 'sound fingerprint' which IMHO is overly detailed sound stage oriented.

My Bionor based 'Trionor' prototype using full range units sounded great so I'll go with that.

What do you mean by “soundstage oriented”? Does this mean that you don’t care if the speaker doesn’t accurately recreate the recorded stereo effect?

 

[MarcelNL]

My initial question leading to this quest was what the exact horn curve is...the patents drove me in the direction of a Kugelwellenhorn, later I found a patent for a hybrid curve....knowing the drawing is not scaled properly the question was there.

My trionor prototype is torn down before moving house, I'm now waiting for about a year to get this issue resolved so I can start the build. The trionor is a bionor similar build, yet with three 13" fullrange units used as fullrange coupled with a supertweeter so no crossover at 500Hz like Bionor.


Soundstage oriented means IMHO that a speaker is creating stereo 'effects' that are not there in real life, or more likley it is augmenting them, exaggerating.
Listen to a live chamber orchestra of 3 or 4 instruments and try orient instruments with your eyes closed, with that few it should be easy....yet the general location of an instrument can be pinpointed but there is no such thing as hearing the location of individual strings on a violin, let alone an idea of the depth of the soundstage since the music fills the whole concert hall. That effect is even more pronounced with a full orchestra...ultra high notes 'sing' in a different location than the instrument producing it, overtones are quite important too.

 

[PeterA]

Soundstage oriented means IMHO that a speaker is creating stereo 'effects' that are not there in real life, or more likley it is augmenting them, exaggerating.
Listen to a live chamber orchestra of 3 or 4 instruments and try orient instruments with your eyes closed, with that few it should be easy....yet the general location of an instrument can be pinpointed but there is no such thing as hearing the location of individual strings on a violin, let alone an idea of the depth of the soundstage since the music fills the whole concert hall. That effect is even more pronounced with a full orchestra...ultra high notes 'sing' in a different location than the instrument producing it, overtones are quite important too.

I agree that many systems augment or enhance this effect of imaging and sound staging. In my opinion, it is not natural and it is not experienced when listening to live acoustic music in real spaces.

last week I went to hear some chamber music with two fellow WBF members. What I heard was instantaneous expansion of energy filling the space. Very distinct timbral information from the four different instruments, violin, cello, piano, and clarinet. But the sound was so overlapped and merged that there was no distinct imaging. We were also sitting pretty close so sound staging as such was pretty vague. I could distinguish the different locations of the instruments in front of me in a very general way, but there was nothing specific or pinpointed or outlined. In my opinion, such things are audio file stereo artifacts.

 

[MarcelNL]

Peter , that is exactly what I was trying to refer to!

In our local concert hall I have seats in row 12, just about right for great 'soundstage' but it simply does not exist.
The energy fills the room, and it's almost true surround sound (without the horrible effects home theatres invented)
In the Royal Concertgebouw I usually pick seats somewhere in row 17-22 (larger hall) for the same reason.

It's that energy I'm after, and true time coherence of instruments...and yes some other aspects are required too. Pinpoint imaging? Not of any interest to me.

 

[Maril555]

My initial question leading to this quest was what the exact horn curve is...the patents drove me in the direction of a Kugelwellenhorn, later I found a patent for a hybrid curve....knowing the drawing is not scaled properly the question was there.

My trionor prototype is torn down before moving house, I'm now waiting for about a year to get this issue resolved so I can start the build. The trionor is a bionor similar build, yet with three 13" fullrange units used as fullrange coupled with a supertweeter so no crossover at 500Hz like Bionor.


Soundstage oriented means IMHO that a speaker is creating stereo 'effects' that are not there in real life, or more likley it is augmenting them, exaggerating.
Listen to a live chamber orchestra of 3 or 4 instruments and try orient instruments with your eyes closed, with that few it should be easy....yet the general location of an instrument can be pinpointed but there is no such thing as hearing the location of individual strings on a violin, let alone an idea of the depth of the soundstage since the music fills the whole concert hall. That effect is even more pronounced with a full orchestra...ultra high notes 'sing' in a different location than the instrument producing it, overtones are quite important too.

Thank you,
And what amplification is planned for the new speakers?

 

[MarcelNL]

Thank you,
And what amplification is planned for the new speakers?

the one mentioned in my signature, A G2 connected single tube amp; PL519, effectively making it a mesh triode. something like 2.5W, plenty at something like 105dB/W/m

 

[LL21]

Peter , that is exactly what I was trying to refer to!

In our local concert hall I have seats in row 12, just about right for great 'soundstage' but it simply does not exist.
The energy fills the room, and it's almost true surround sound (without the horrible effects home theatres invented)
In the Royal Concertgebouw I usually pick seats somewhere in row 17-22 (larger hall) for the same reason.

It's that energy I'm after, and true time coherence of instruments...and yes some other aspects are required too. Pinpoint imaging? Not of any interest to me.

Same here. The primary 'soundstage-like' element I do focus on and enjoy is the sense of envelopment. This for me comes from effortless scale-ability and also deep deep sub 35hz bass which tends to give a sense of space and sense of venue.