Digitally Enhanced Vinyl Poll

[Brucemck2]

The DEQX is very transparent. That sounds like a really cool system.

I know you use Acourate. Have you thought about setting it up again using Acourate or Audiolense?

I no longer use Acourate or AudioLense (or the DEQX, which I sold along with the line arrays).

In my current baffle wall setup I've got nearly perfect time and phase alignment above 50hz, so, there's little need for convolution beyond some low end PEQ to address some room induced issues. Nyles Mellor helped me to set up Fab Filter Pro 2 for music listening (it runs in J River), and I've found it "more satisfying" than Acourate or AudioLense in that there's a bit more "air" and "space" in the sonic signature.

My Trinnov setup performs that PEQ functionality for multichannel listening.

 

[bonzo75]

I no longer use Acourate or AudioLense (or the DEQX, which I sold along with the line arrays).

In my current baffle wall setup I've got nearly perfect time and phase alignment above 50hz, so, there's little need for convolution beyond some low end PEQ to address some room induced issues. Nyles Mellor helped me to set up Fab Filter Pro 2 for music listening (it runs in J River), and I've found it "more satisfying" than Acourate or AudioLense in that there's a bit more "air" and "space" in the sonic signature.

My Trinnov setup performs that PEQ functionality for multichannel listening.

Hi Bruce, so you prefer not to have your Trinnov between the pre and the power for 2-channel?

 

[Brucemck2]

Hi Bruce, so you prefer not to have your Trinnov between the pre and the power for 2-channel?

Yes. I run a "purist two channel" setup and a multichannel theater setup. The former is 2.0 (music server to dac to preamp to left and right mains amps) and the latter is 11.5 (multiple sources to Trinnov to mains, surrounds, and sub amps)

"Purist" is a bit of a misnomer, as I use a music server running Fab Filter Pro Q and also use active speakers where the dsp based crossovers are built into the per-driver dedicated amps.

For multichannel Blu Ray and SACD I use the theater configuration.

 

[bonzo75]

For classical music, do you enjoy listening to MCH classical more than 2-ch classical? I had a very positive experience with Datasat auro 3d, hence the question.

 

[juicehifi]

Hi Brent. Welcome to the forum! Much appreciate the explanation. Can you give us some speeds and feeds? What sampling rate does the RIAA eq run at? Is it at whatever rate the data was digitized or does it downsample? What is the CPU usage at the highest sampling rate?

You can generate filters for any sample rate up to 200 kHz. Then you have to run the AD conversion at the same rate. The CPU capacity is rarely a bottleneck these days. Any normal laptop newer than ca 1995 will have more than enough power to do this. I could easily process video and 6 channels of sound correction with the Dell Inspiron laptop I bought in 2002. If we're talking about multichannel systems with digital XO and 10-20 channels of correction, very long filters and high sample rate, the computing power may be an issue, but these computers also processes hi rez video.

 

[juicehifi]

Thanks Bernt for posting here!

IIRC, audiolense RIAA settings include two RIAA filters as well as impedance mismatch compensation. Is that correct?

I finally procured a TT and I think it's got a MC cartridge. This means there might be some HF rolloff due to my mic pre's lower input impedance, right? Is there a compensation filter for this or would I just need to manually adjust the target curve in the HF?

Sorry, no compensation for impedance mismatch currently.

 

[Brucemck2]

For classical music, do you enjoy listening to MCH classical more than 2-ch classical? I had a very positive experience with Datasat auro 3d, hence the question.

I like both and switch between them depending on the music and my mood. My favorite for upmixing two channel music is Meridian's Trifield mode, but alas it's only available with Meridian gear. I have not yet heard Auro upmixing of two channel sources -- at some point I'll likely get a Trinnov Altitude32 processor for that (but am deferring that until it's time to trade out my mains and add additional overheads and surrounds).

 

[dallasjustice]

I finally setup the demo turntable (crappy Music Hall) with a mic pre. I am sampling at 24bit 96khz via the analog inputs of my Lynx Hilo. The digital signal goes in the line in ASIO input for Jriver at 24bit/96khz. The digital signal then gets filtered in the Jriver convolution engine with an RIAA curve generated using Audiolense as well as my normal digital crossovers and target curve filters.


My initial impression is that the sound is unlike any vinyl rig I've ever heard. Its very natural AND transparent. It sounds alot closer to really good digital than any vinyl I've heard in the past. To me, that's a real positive!


I need some help though. Since I am using a mic preamp which is designed for balanced signal, I would prefer a balanced, or at least, XLR connection with the cartridge. I know that's no the normal way things are done, but I think there may be some options out there.

 

[bfalls]

I finally setup the demo turntable (crappy Music Hall) with a mic pre. I am sampling at 24bit 96khz via the analog inputs of my Lynx Hilo. The digital signal goes in the line in ASIO input for Jriver at 24bit/96khz. The digital signal then gets filtered in the Jriver convolution engine with an RIAA curve generated using Audiolense as well as my normal digital crossovers and target curve filters.


My initial impression is that the sound is unlike any vinyl rig I've ever heard. Its very natural AND transparent. It sounds alot closer to really good digital than any vinyl I've heard in the past. To me, that's a real positive!


I need some help though. Since I am using a mic preamp which is designed for balanced signal, I would prefer a balanced, or at least, XLR connection with the cartridge. I know that's no the normal way things are done, but I think there may be some options out there.

That is pretty easy if you don't mind re-doing the connections - the leads off the cartridge are balanced by definition and typically one side is tied to ground on the RCA socket or cable. You just need to unsolder the RCA and terminate the 4 wires with an XLR connector following the cartridge left/right +/- convention. I have done this every arm/cartridge in the last 10 years as I always use a balanced input.

Bruce

 

[jdubs]

I finally setup the demo turntable (crappy Music Hall) with a mic pre. I am sampling at 24bit 96khz via the analog inputs of my Lynx Hilo. The digital signal goes in the line in ASIO input for Jriver at 24bit/96khz. The digital signal then gets filtered in the Jriver convolution engine with an RIAA curve generated using Audiolense as well as my normal digital crossovers and target curve filters.


My initial impression is that the sound is unlike any vinyl rig I've ever heard. Its very natural AND transparent. It sounds alot closer to really good digital than any vinyl I've heard in the past. To me, that's a real positive!


I need some help though. Since I am using a mic preamp which is designed for balanced signal, I would prefer a balanced, or at least, XLR connection with the cartridge. I know that's no the normal way things are done, but I think there may be some options out there.

This is AWESOME and something I am looking to try very soon with my Steinberg UR824 / Audiolense combo. Do you have any pics of your setup? Would love to see how you have everything connected.

Nice job!!

Jim

 

[dallasjustice]

Thanks Jim. Audiolense works very well for RIAA. It's also super easier to setup the filters.

I sent the demo music hall table back to my dealer today. I am planning on buying a VPI TT and a LOMC. I will use a pair of earthworks 1021 mic pre amps for gain. The 1021 are very linear, super high input impedance, direct coupled, no pots, fully balanced end-to-end and up to 60db of gain. It should work well with a low output MC with a balanced output.
http://www.earthworksaudio.com/products/preamps/zdt-1021-2/

It may take a couple of weeks to get everything put together. I plan on having Scott Scheaffer come over to set it all up. He's an LP setup guru. I talked to him this morning. I'm lucky he lives close to me.

I'll start a new thread when it's all setup to include pictures and lots of screenshots from Jriver and Audiolense. This is a very worthwhile endevour. I did it as a lark. But I now realize that this setup really has something special to offer.

This is AWESOME and something I am looking to try very soon with my Steinberg UR824 / Audiolense combo. Do you have any pics of your setup? Would love to see how you have everything connected.

Nice job!!

Jim

 

[CGabriel]

Thanks Jim. Audiolense works very well for RIAA. It's also super easier to setup the filters.

I sent the demo music hall table back to my dealer today. I am planning on buying a VPI TT and a LOMC. I will use a pair of earthworks 1021 mic pre amps for gain. The 1021 are very linear, super high input impedance, direct coupled, no pots, fully balanced end-to-end and up to 60db of gain. It should work well with a low output MC with a balanced output.
http://www.earthworksaudio.com/products/preamps/zdt-1021-2/

It may take a couple of weeks to get everything put together. I plan on having Scott Schaeffer come over to set it all up. He's an LP setup guru. I talked to him this morning. I'm lucky he lives close to me.

I'll start a new thread when it's all setup to include pictures and lots of screenshots from Jriver and Audiolense. This is a very worthwhile endevour. I did it as a lark. But I now realize that this setup really has something special to offer.

Have you thought about getting the proper loading for the cartridge. It seems to me that a mic preamp will not have the correct loading for the cartridge which may skew the frequency response. ??

 

[dallasjustice]

Have you thought about getting the proper loading for the cartridge. It seems to me that a mic preamp will not have the correct loading for the cartridge which may skew the frequency response. ??

I've already mentioned above that the mic preamp's input is 100k ohms. I could use any cartridge I want and get flat FR.

 

[microstrip]

I've already mentioned above that the mic preamp's input is 100k ohms. I could use any cartridge I want and get flat FR.

Only if you properly load your cartridge - you need to add a parallel resistor. See http://www.extremephono.com/Loading.htm

 

[dallasjustice]

Only if you properly load your cartridge - you need to add a parallel resistor. See http://www.extremephono.com/Loading.htm

Okay. Thanks for this. I thought load was only an issue when the cartridge output impedance was not less than 10x the pre's input impedance? If the output impedance is say 10ohms and the input impedances is 100k ohms, why wouldn't the cartridge be able to perform linear?

 

[microstrip]

Okay. Thanks for this. I thought load was only an issue when the cartridge output impedance was not less than 10x the pre's input impedance? If the output impedance is say 10ohms and the input impedances is 100k ohms, why wouldn't the cartridge be able to perform linear?

Phono cartridges are electromechanical inductive devices - they should be loaded by an optimum resistance and capacitance to damp it mechanically and electrically. However you have several schools of though on what is the optimum value, e.g, read a well known vinylophile on it: http://www.theabsolutesound.com/answers/94/.

The famous (and ignominious IMHO) 10x rule mostly reports to signal attenuation and signal to noise ratio - it ignores aspects such as distortion of output stage versus output current in active systems.

 

[dallasjustice]

Thanks Micro!

The HF peak shown above represents cartridge resonance because of too little "damping" in the load? I understand much better now. Why wouldn't a cartridge manufacturer simply build a cartridge which resonates at ultrasonic frequencies? IOW, couldn't I sidestep this problem by setting things up so that the HF peak is much less audible? In my system, I've measured at seated position with a very accurate calibrated mic. There's very little sound above 15khz from a logsweep using sample frequency of 48khz.

Phono cartridges are electromechanical inductive devices - they should be loaded by an optimum resistance and capacitance to damp it mechanically and electrically. However you have several schools of though on what is the optimum value, e.g, read a well known vinylophile on it: http://www.theabsolutesound.com/answers/94/.

The famous (and ignominious IMHO) 10x rule mostly reports to signal attenuation and signal to noise ratio - it ignores aspects such as distortion of output stage versus output current in active systems.

 

[garylkoh]

Those two charts on the Extreme Phono website were ripped off the FM Acoustics FM122/222 Owner's Manual. I owned the FM phono stage for nearly 20 years, and believed the story. However, being more educated here on WBF, I started to question them and did some simulations for myself. I don't know what parameters they used to get the resonant peaks down to below 20kHz, but it must have been some marketing genius. Knowing real-world MC cartridge parameters, the huge capacitances and low resistances in the charts would kill all the detail and transparency in the music. With parallel capacitance and resistance loading of the values you could end up with by believing those charts, the life is sucked out of the music. I even built a phono stage with those loading just as an experiment. Can't listen to it for more than a second.

Check this out for the formulas and some real-world simulations:
http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

Some loading IS essential, but it in the magnitude of picofarads and resistive loading depends more on the impedance of the tonearm cable.

 

[microstrip]

Those two charts on the Extreme Phono website were ripped off the FM Acoustics FM122/222 Owner's Manual. I owned the FM phono stage for nearly 20 years, and believed the story. However, being more educated here on WBF, I started to question them and did some simulations for myself. I don't know what parameters they used to get the resonant peaks down to below 20kHz, but it must have been some marketing genius. Knowing real-world MC cartridge parameters, the huge capacitances and low resistances in the charts would kill all the detail and transparency in the music. With parallel capacitance and resistance loading of the values you could end up with by believing those charts, the life is sucked out of the music. I even built a phono stage with those loading just as an experiment. Can't listen to it for more than a second.


Check this out for the formulas and some real-world simulations:
http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

Some loading IS essential, but it in the magnitude of picofarads and resistive loading depends more on the impedance of the tonearm cable.

Thanks Gary - surely there is an error in their uF - should it probably be nF?

I remember reading an article in Hifi News and Recording Review with measured graphs - typical deviations due to improper loading were around 3-6 dB from flat.

 

[dallasjustice]

What determines the frequency for the resonance? Is that a function of the stylus or how the cartridge is manufactured? Is there a way to push the resonance out closer into the ultrasonic bandwidth?