Direct-to-Disc

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
7,403
1,672
440
Beverly Hills, CA
#22
Dear Ron,

Sorry if I came over as correctional in some way,certainly not my intention.

I took a personal segue and reduced the response;no chance because......

The individuals that performed,recorded,produced,mastered and lacquered were not exalted by money rather peer appreciation.

They were able to collaborate in a time rife with war and hatred.During such periods they strove for the best at all times.

Take a cross section of the gen-pop right now and ask them to do work without pocket lining and deception;unlikely.

Kindest regards,G.
Dear G,

All good here! :)

I guess the golden era was a time in which a fortuitous confluence of special people and events occurred, and is destined never to be repeated.

Kindest regards,

Ron
 

Hi-FiGuy

Member Sponsor
Feb 24, 2015
1,683
331
135
Greater Phoenix Area
#23
Dear G,

All good here! :)

I guess the golden era was a time in which a fortuitous confluence of special people and events occurred, and is destined never to be repeated.

Kindest regards,

Ron
They say history always repeats itself, usually in the context of bad things. Why cant history repeat itself in the context of wonderful things like this?
 
May 30, 2010
16,222
1,200
420
Portugal
#24
They say history always repeats itself, usually in the context of bad things. Why cant history repeat itself in the context of wonderful things like this?
Why should history just repeat itself? We live in great times in sound recording and reproduction, being able to enjoy the recordings from the Golden Era and the great modern recordings carried with modern techniques by great professionals with top equipment.

We should also remember that the following words were written by Michael Fremer after listening to the vinyl issue of the 192/24 digital recording of Sir Simon Rattle's interpretation of Symphony 9 :

"At around 2am, as the reverberation of the Ninth's last notes faded away, I found myself exhausted, overwhelmed, and somewhat disoriented, all in the most pleasurable way, by the most convincing illusion I've ever experienced—by a considerable margin—of having been transported from my modestly sized listening room to a concert hall (the Berlin Philharmonie)". ( taken from https://www.stereophile.com/content/sonus-faber-aida-loudspeaker )

IMHO sound reproduction is not a race, it is a nice walk in the nature.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
12,996
2,324
410
London
#25
Golden eras exist for everything. They exist for composition of classical music, for performance, for recordings, for rock bands, for speaker drivers, for TTs, for laptops and for smart phones.

It is simply that in one era all the talent raw material money etc comes together in a positive spiral, and then leaves it in a negative spiral. Bill Gates also mentions these spirals in his book.

The reason western electric was so advanced is that the US govt and money backing speaker development to get talkies going was higher than their space budget. In the later half of that century, it was no more as important.

During the Renaissance and classical era talent flew to the arts and these composers were well paid. Later the talent went to the industrial revolution, not the cultural, and the decline in compositions started. 60s and 70s produced better rock compositions than classical compositions. And today there will be better alternative music compositions than today's rock compositions.

Therefore, if you want to chase something... Whether speaker drivers, music scores, performances for classical or rock, vinyl, CDs, multichannel... You have to chase the golden era for that particular thing. To think that modern is better because your laptop and smartphones have improved is silly imo.

Also, G's classical knowledge is a few hundred times more than Fremer's, who himself accepts that he does not know much about classical. Fremer, for example, would not have access to Furtwangler's verticut Beethoven 9th
 
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zerostargeneral

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2018
310
248
48
#26
Dear Microstrip,

Outside of Flokason,most quality engineers(pressing)are in their twilight years.

The machinery employed is sub par in comparison to the fifties and sixties.

You are very lucky to enjoy streaming as it allows access to insanely expensive titles,on vinyl,for buttons.

Personally I am polluted by analogue from front to back.

Comparing Rattle to Szell is not obvious and may require time and better understanding of genius.

Kindest regards,G.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
12,996
2,324
410
London
#27
It is also very easy to trace what happened to DGG's sonics when they sold their machinery, who bought it, and what happened to the recordings of those who purchased it (though they did not have the same level of performers as DGG)
 
May 30, 2010
16,222
1,200
420
Portugal
#28
As I said, sound reproduction is not a race and I am not interested in ranking equipment , experts, performers, composers or genius in forums.

Each of us has his references and preferences - my main concern in most WBF posts is sound reproduction, not the performance. Only in is this aspect I reported Michael Fremer opinion.

I read music matters elsewhere, where people with more expertise than me discuss between them their different opinions. As always in preference matters, we feel happy when some one supports brilliantly our preferences. :)

Surely I would love to have access to DXD transcriptions of Zerostargeneral selected and preferred versions - but we have to wait for more than a decade before they are copyright free. I have read that one of the reasons very few labels sell DXD versions of their master recordings is that they are too close, almost indistinguishable from the originals, and the companies do not want to loose control of the ultimate sound quality versions.

I have found that DGG digital sound quality can be great when played in an adequate system - and from my experience I do not expect them to sound enjoyable in systems voiced to some particular vinyl. As always IMHO, YMMV.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
12,996
2,324
410
London
#29
We are also talking sonics here. Those vinyls had the performance AND the sonics. The sonics themselves are far superior. You could get it all. You also do not understand that the DGG reference is hifi system independent but that shows your lack of experience
 
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bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
12,996
2,324
410
London
#30
There are many DSD and PCM rips from the masters
 

Solypsa

Well-Known Member
Jun 7, 2017
266
102
55
Seattle
www.solypsa.com
#31
...Outside of Flokason,most quality engineers(pressing)are in their twilight years...
Flo, and his mission to revive the knowledge around vinyl mastering, was very much a wind in my sails in those past days when I set out on my own adventure with a Neumann.

The people I met (in person and over distance) were a special bunch.

Whenever audiophilia gets me down I meditate on these lovely people and the sometimes herculean efforts that go into a great capture of music.
 

zerostargeneral

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2018
310
248
48
#32
Dear Solypsa,

I am very excited to hear that you know of such things.

I had a look at your site,the cartridges seem like the star of the show.If they are as good as you are knowledgeable then I think I have spent money again without hearing one.

Kindest regards,G.
 
Likes: bonzo75

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
3,878
744
198
Switzerland
#33
Literally every single vinyl aficionado loves direct-to-disc recordings.

This hobby supports numerous complex, fanatically perfectionistic, expensive, low-volume endeavors. ERC's projects come to mind.

Why isn't anyone bothering to record direct-to-disc today?

Of course it would be risky financially, but when has that ever stopped passion projects in this industry?

And if done properly the sound quality of the resulting LPs would attract many of our cost-no-object members to buy them.
I love the few I have as they literally seem to be the most direct “they are here” (mine are all small Jazz) recordings I have.
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
1,337
872
185
the Upper Midwest
#34
During the Renaissance and classical era talent flew to the arts and these composers were well paid.
I liked your post but, with due respect, its take on history may be a bit sketchy (or whomever you took it from ... ??)

Beethoven had Esterhazy but Mozart died almost penniless. Generally one had to be talented not only as a composer and performer but talented at selling or ingratiating themselves to a sponsor or publicist and one's fortuna could vary with that of the sponsor. It's not like you got a check every month. It wasn't easy for Beethoven to find talented musicians because they were not paid much. If you could get a court or church appointment somewhere, Choralmaster for the Church of ... you were generally secure, but pay was not great. If you were popular you could get work traveling around - think of Haydn in London. But most 'artists' were happy with room and board. In the 20thC musical talent was compromised by major wars and it was not a great time of musical flourishing. I'm thinking we got some talented east German conductors once they got past the workers paradise. Masur, Keilberth, Sanderling, Tennstedt. I may not have all the names right.

Here's a fun question: where in the 20th C do you put a cap on both composers and conductors? Two different kinds of talent.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
12,996
2,324
410
London
#35
I liked your post but, with due respect, its take on history may be a bit sketchy (or whomever you took it from ... ??)

Beethoven had Esterhazy but Mozart died almost penniless. Generally one had to be talented not only as a composer and performer but talented at selling or ingratiating themselves to a sponsor or publicist and one's fortuna could vary with that of the sponsor. It's not like you got a check every month. It wasn't easy for Beethoven to find talented musicians because they were not paid much. If you could get a court or church appointment somewhere, Choralmaster for the Church of ... you were generally secure, but pay was not great. If you were popular you could get work traveling around - think of Haydn in London. But most 'artists' were happy with room and board. In the 20thC musical talent was compromised by major wars and it was not a great time of musical flourishing. I'm thinking we got some talented east German conductors once they got past the workers paradise. Masur, Keilberth, Sanderling, Tennstedt. I may not have all the names right.

Here's a fun question: where in the 20th C do you put a cap on both composers and conductors? Two different kinds of talent.
They might have died penniless, but Mozart started doing many piano concertos in sold out venues for monetary reasons too. In fact hours concertos after the 10th were more to please people and less for artistic reasons. Beethoven too went to Vienna to perform his piano concertos due to Mozart's success. You can hear the influence of Mozart on his first three. The 3rd especially reminds me a lot of Mozart's 20th, though as always I prefer the Beethoven.

Mozart showed the way, and Beethoven followed, that performing in theatres to a sold out crowd earns more money than performing at the homes of the noblesse. So, there were financial incentives. With those before, like Bach, there were the rich willing to employ them. Today, unless you attain no. 1 artist stature, you don't really make anything.

Fyi, these things get told at talks before concert performances some times, not every time, and I put them down from memory
 

kodomo

Well-Known Member
Apr 26, 2017
510
469
85
#36
I collect all d2d I find. As most people noted, the problem is the performance for most but for classical it is the performers who had done these recordings, some are very good but not many masters...

For its sound, I have not heard any other type of analog media that is as dynamic and open sounding as d2d including master tape.
 
Likes: morricab

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
3,878
744
198
Switzerland
#37
I liked your post but, with due respect, its take on history may be a bit sketchy (or whomever you took it from ... ??)

Beethoven had Esterhazy but Mozart died almost penniless. Generally one had to be talented not only as a composer and performer but talented at selling or ingratiating themselves to a sponsor or publicist and one's fortuna could vary with that of the sponsor. It's not like you got a check every month. It wasn't easy for Beethoven to find talented musicians because they were not paid much. If you could get a court or church appointment somewhere, Choralmaster for the Church of ... you were generally secure, but pay was not great. If you were popular you could get work traveling around - think of Haydn in London. But most 'artists' were happy with room and board. In the 20thC musical talent was compromised by major wars and it was not a great time of musical flourishing. I'm thinking we got some talented east German conductors once they got past the workers paradise. Masur, Keilberth, Sanderling, Tennstedt. I may not have all the names right.

Here's a fun question: where in the 20th C do you put a cap on both composers and conductors? Two different kinds of talent.
Schubert also died penniless.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
3,878
744
198
Switzerland
#38
I collect all d2d I find. As most people noted, the problem is the performance for most but for classical it is the performers who had done these recordings, some are very good but not many masters...

For its sound, I have not heard any other type of analog media that is as dynamic and open sounding as d2d including master tape.
Also what I found...especially when I recorded my own voice this way...that was awesome! It was a tube amp driven cutter as well :cool:
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
12,996
2,324
410
London
#39
Rattle at Barbican yesterday. He is going so fast as if he wants to get it over within the hour. At Barbican itself with the same orchestra Haitink and MTT were so much better.

He did give a small talk where he said this is the toughest symphony to conduct, and then Fidelio and Missa Solemnis as well.


 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
12,996
2,324
410
London
#40

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