Does DSP belong in State of the Art Systems?
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No just meter readers who refuse to accept human hearing is a lot different than a microphone hooked to an oscilloscope.Oh no we can't have a renegade like that, running around spewing distortion on this forum
By measurements I assume you mean in-room response and impulse? I can interpret them fine and nothing I said leads to your presumption that I didn’t. As I said I have an active DSP system that is frequency and time corrected. Never said it wasn’t helpful I said it’s by no means all there is to the story. For perception of realism it is just the beginning and probably not necessary.
Distortion measurements can never be taken at face value. They have to be weighted with an appropriate model algorithm… then they start to say something meaningful…
Never got around to this, because things move so quickly in here.
A very predictable answer. Study cases / tests washed away with a flick of a switch
As for the Carver test, he did a nulling test which led to a distortion of 0.03%. Of cause Carver won the bet. The test persons at Stereophile, couldn't tell the difference between the test amps and admitted the loss. Probably just a bad day at the office
Not to me. It seems just another way to describe "suspension of disbelief."
Don’t know whether my system is SOTA but I do know that in my 22’ x 22’ x 10’ Room, the creation of convolution filters in REW and application of them in ROON has given me absolutely fantastic sound.
I am a believer in DSP. I have also heard it’s benefits in my buddy’s system which has some constraints. He used Mitch Barnett and the Acourate service. Took a few iterations but it sounds far better than we could get by normal room setup tweaks.
I am a believer in DSP. I have also heard it’s benefits in my buddy’s system which has some constraints. He used Mitch Barnett and the Acourate service. Took a few iterations but it sounds far better than we could get by normal room setup tweaks.
Another dodge on personal experience. I could care less about what Carver fooled some guys with. I had his amps 30 years ago...it was ok by my lower standards of the timeNever got around to this, because things move so quickly in here.
A very predictable answer. Study cases / tests washed away with a flick of a switch
As for the Carver test, he did a nulling test which led to a distortion of 0.03%. Of cause Carver won the bet. The test persons at Stereophile, couldn't tell the difference between the test amps and admitted the loss. Probably just a bad day at the office
An ambiguous claim - "heard" includes perception and surely we can't measure your personnel subjective perception. But I claim that everything that can be proved to be heard can be measured. Remember that proof of hearing needs a valid statistical result.
As far as I see no one is telling you that we can measure or predict particular users preference.
Let's look at an example where DSP can optimize a system.
Speakers get reinforced in the lows by the proximity of placement to surfaces. If the speaker is placed closed to a corner with solid walls, it can pick up as much 9 dB extra in certain areas of the bass. If it's placed close to the wall, the extra SPL is around 6 dB. If the speakers are placed far out from the walls, there's only the gain from the floor. 9 dB and 6 dB less compared to the previously mentioned placements. And if they put somewhere between, there's a reinforcement of SPL somewhere between these numbers.
Besides, if there are windows or light walls in the room, the extra gain by close placement to the surfaces becomes less.
When a speaker manufacturer tunes the lows of speaker, they have to choose what extra SPL they will go by. In other words, your speaker works only the best with a certain gain from the boundaries. But the placement you choose or the type of walls you have may quite different. There's no way the manufacturer can tune your speakers or subwoofer for that matter to work optimally in every room or with different placements. So in many cases you will either end up with too much level in the lows or to little.
This is however, easily tuned correctly in by shelving in a DSP. We can lift or lower the lows to achieve either a correct or desired tonality:
The same goes for the highest frequencies. The treble will always fall in level on distances. If you sit close to the speaker, the fall in SPL isn't much. But if you sit quite far away, this loss of SPL in treble will increase. And again, a speaker manufactuer can't choose one setting that fits them all. They have to settle on one setting, which may not be the optimal tuning to the distance you listen too.
DSP can also be used only in a software, with no physical hardware added. For example one could use Roon. But obviously one should ideally measure the result to see what's changing. By both measuring and listening, one will learn what works best for you. The optimal setting in one room can be different from another due to how the time domain behaviour is of the room. Or the bass of your speakers will also matter here. Smaller woofers will have their limits to the level before audible distortion kicks in. Your musical preference will also play a role.
Speakers get reinforced in the lows by the proximity of placement to surfaces. If the speaker is placed closed to a corner with solid walls, it can pick up as much 9 dB extra in certain areas of the bass. If it's placed close to the wall, the extra SPL is around 6 dB. If the speakers are placed far out from the walls, there's only the gain from the floor. 9 dB and 6 dB less compared to the previously mentioned placements. And if they put somewhere between, there's a reinforcement of SPL somewhere between these numbers.
Besides, if there are windows or light walls in the room, the extra gain by close placement to the surfaces becomes less.
When a speaker manufacturer tunes the lows of speaker, they have to choose what extra SPL they will go by. In other words, your speaker works only the best with a certain gain from the boundaries. But the placement you choose or the type of walls you have may quite different. There's no way the manufacturer can tune your speakers or subwoofer for that matter to work optimally in every room or with different placements. So in many cases you will either end up with too much level in the lows or to little.
This is however, easily tuned correctly in by shelving in a DSP. We can lift or lower the lows to achieve either a correct or desired tonality:
The same goes for the highest frequencies. The treble will always fall in level on distances. If you sit close to the speaker, the fall in SPL isn't much. But if you sit quite far away, this loss of SPL in treble will increase. And again, a speaker manufactuer can't choose one setting that fits them all. They have to settle on one setting, which may not be the optimal tuning to the distance you listen too.
DSP can also be used only in a software, with no physical hardware added. For example one could use Roon. But obviously one should ideally measure the result to see what's changing. By both measuring and listening, one will learn what works best for you. The optimal setting in one room can be different from another due to how the time domain behaviour is of the room. Or the bass of your speakers will also matter here. Smaller woofers will have their limits to the level before audible distortion kicks in. Your musical preference will also play a role.
So what is the point if it's not about improving the system? Appreciate if you can you actually bring something concrete to the table.
So far you have mentioned distortion, but you haven't explained what type of distortion. As mentioned before, if a DSP electronic unit is used, the distortion is related how the the hardware measures, just like any other electronic device. This has nothing to do with good use of DSP itself. There are DSP units that don't measure that well and there are devices that measures encredible well. And as I have also written about: One can use DSP in wrong ways. The result will depend on the "chef".
So pros and cons with DSP/EQ/DRC in a SOTA system.
Arguments against.
"I don´t want to make the effort of learning how to use DSP/EQ/DRC, take measurements and interpret them etc.” A valid reason, if one don´t want to spend the time of learning DSP/EQ/DRC, hey it´s a free world and it is indeed possible to get good sound without DSP/EQ. Some also find it more fun to test out different gear, than making good sound with a “boring” DSP. Very valid argument.
"DSP introduces artifacts and degrades SQ" Maybe some thinks that the information on the music media is of some kind of a virgin and pure signal, which needs to be retained. It´s not, it has been through countless lengths of non-exotic (standard) cables, mixers, compressor etc.
It is fully possible to find a DSP solution with low distortion, which is sonic transparent to the human ear. An AD/DA conversion is in reality transparent, as is a by-passed DSP that does nothing. A DSP/EQ that does something is not transparent per se and that is the whole point, by using it in the first place. By no means is it a given, that a DSP puts in a veil or haze, between the music and the listener. Correct use and the cure is much better than the disease.
Arguments for.
DSP/EQ can in no way replace good speakers and a well-treated room and the better the starting point is, the easier it will be to do an EQ correction, with no drawbacks. Drawbacks often coming from trying to correct for things that is better left alone (often non-minimum phase issues).
That said it is impressive how much one can change subjective sound qualities. Typical hifi lingo as organic midrange, fast bass, analytical sound, black background, dynamic, 3D placement etc. All can be easily changed, just by changing 0.5-1.5 dB in the frequency response. When we know most speakers in a room will have deviations in FR in the magnitude of +- 10-15 dB, it is safe to say, that would not be considered high fidelity SQ, let alone SOTA.
Therefore, unless one has a perfect room and perfect speakers and no one has, DSP/EQ is a very strong tool to correct for speaker and room imbalances and other upstream components. However, strong tools in wrong hands can turn out bad.
Arguments against.
"I don´t want to make the effort of learning how to use DSP/EQ/DRC, take measurements and interpret them etc.” A valid reason, if one don´t want to spend the time of learning DSP/EQ/DRC, hey it´s a free world and it is indeed possible to get good sound without DSP/EQ. Some also find it more fun to test out different gear, than making good sound with a “boring” DSP. Very valid argument.
"DSP introduces artifacts and degrades SQ" Maybe some thinks that the information on the music media is of some kind of a virgin and pure signal, which needs to be retained. It´s not, it has been through countless lengths of non-exotic (standard) cables, mixers, compressor etc.
It is fully possible to find a DSP solution with low distortion, which is sonic transparent to the human ear. An AD/DA conversion is in reality transparent, as is a by-passed DSP that does nothing. A DSP/EQ that does something is not transparent per se and that is the whole point, by using it in the first place. By no means is it a given, that a DSP puts in a veil or haze, between the music and the listener. Correct use and the cure is much better than the disease.
Arguments for.
DSP/EQ can in no way replace good speakers and a well-treated room and the better the starting point is, the easier it will be to do an EQ correction, with no drawbacks. Drawbacks often coming from trying to correct for things that is better left alone (often non-minimum phase issues).
That said it is impressive how much one can change subjective sound qualities. Typical hifi lingo as organic midrange, fast bass, analytical sound, black background, dynamic, 3D placement etc. All can be easily changed, just by changing 0.5-1.5 dB in the frequency response. When we know most speakers in a room will have deviations in FR in the magnitude of +- 10-15 dB, it is safe to say, that would not be considered high fidelity SQ, let alone SOTA.
Therefore, unless one has a perfect room and perfect speakers and no one has, DSP/EQ is a very strong tool to correct for speaker and room imbalances and other upstream components. However, strong tools in wrong hands can turn out bad.
I heard an all meridian DSP digital system a few years ago. The owner described it as state of the art, meridians flagship system all set up expertly by the dealer. I didn’t really know what to expect. He went through a bunch of CDs and then digital files and none of it sounded like music to me. I have a lot of friends with high-end audio systems right now and they don’t seem to be gravitating towards DSP. At least I’m not aware that they are playing with it and they are not talking about it.
I use Powersoft incl dsp from 550 and down and in my analogue old spoiled ears, I found out after A/B ing for months, I gained more than I lost
absolutely not able to detect transition form Powersoft to 300B at 550-600
absolutely not able to detect transition form Powersoft to 300B at 550-600
Well, lots of heavy AL users in your backyard, go visit them.funny thing is that most dsp users I meet, think it´s in expert hands....
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