Does DSP belong in State of the Art Systems?

[Holmz]

I’d love to see Taiko or MSB or similar take on building hard-core audiophile DSP systems. My experience is that part of what we attribute to “DSP” is less about digital processing than it is about less than state of the art internal power supplies, clocks, jitter reduction, etc. etc. in the products we are using to hear and evaluate DSP processing.

One experience brought this home to me. I was using a DEQX to provide digital crossover functionality for a custom built two way line array. This was only crossover functionality and not room correction. The DEQX did some “magical” things for the sonics, but it was also “taking away” some of the magic of the (simple, purist) analog crossover. In the end I still preferred the analog crossover most of the time. I then heavily modified the DEQX with better internal power supplies, better internal grounding schemes, high-end input and output transformers, better clocks, better shielding, etc. etc. etc. Following those mods the DEQX was better in all ways than the analog setup. What I had been attributing to “DSP” was more a result of the types of things audiophiles obsess over and not “the math manipulation”. My recent experiences with the SwitchX and AppleTV-X products were similar - the sonics coming from “digital” products improved materially with upgrades to their “non-math” components.

I suspect that if Taiko or MSB or Wadax or the like took this on we’d be having a different discussion about the drawbacks of DSP in high end two channel systems. (And if anyone reading this wants to take on a Trinnov upgrade project DM me!)

Do you have anything further to add as to the DEQX part, mods, etc?

 

[Brucemck2]

Do you have anything further to add as to the DEQX part, mods, etc?

Not beyond the SwitchX and AppleTV-X line, which are terrific.

It’s been too long since modding anything and the firm I relied upon for my DEQX mods (Steve Nugent with Empirical Audio) has moved on.

(If anyone has someone they have found reliable please let me know. It’s art and science.)

 

[SeagoatLeo]

DSP for room correction is difficult to get right, and most automatic systems fail to do so well. The best approach is to apply it sparingly and mostly to the bass.

While I have exclusively active, digital crossover speakers, none of the systems have active room correction. Any applied DSP is manually applied below 100-150hz only. Start with good speakers and an acoustically decent room, and that is all you need.

I 100% agree with your final sentence as do many of my audiophile/music loving friends. Several of us have either Von Schweikert speakers with superb off axis dispersion or Legacy Signature IIIs with their rear ambiance tweeter. I have both. Both rooms have excellent audio qualities. People can lie down, stand up, be located at either end of the room and experience great sonics. There is a sweeter spot in the center of my custom listening room but in my living room with the Signature IIIs there is no apparent sweet spot, it's all sweet (lucky room characteristics).

I know that Legacy uses DSP extensively. I've heard some good demonstrations. It's not a matter of active or passive speakers. While I do not use DSP, my Von Schweikerts do have extensive analog controls on the subwoofer bass which DSP could address (or on smaller speakers, subs). Many audiophiles don't concern themselves with even room dispersion as they prefer a center specific seat or two. It wasn't for me (I was glad to sell my old Legacy Focus speakers).

 

[Hear Here]

I 100% agree with your final sentence as do many of my audiophile/music loving friends. Several of us have either Von Schweikert speakers with superb off axis dispersion or Legacy Signature IIIs with their rear ambiance tweeter. I have both. Both rooms have excellent audio qualities. People can lie down, stand up, be located at either end of the room and experience great sonics. There is a sweeter spot in the center of my custom listening room but in my living room with the Signature IIIs there is no apparent sweet spot, it's all sweet (lucky room characteristics).

I know that Legacy uses DSP extensively. I've heard some good demonstrations. It's not a matter of active or passive speakers. While I do not use DSP, my Von Schweikerts do have extensive analog controls on the subwoofer bass which DSP could address (or on smaller speakers, subs). Many audiophiles don't concern themselves with even room dispersion as they prefer a center specific seat or two. It wasn't for me (I was glad to sell my old Legacy Focus speakers).

Interesting that you describe the sound from your box speakers as comparable with how I visualise omni-directional ones. You say there is virtually no sweet spot, yet the tweeters of your speakers face forward - a direction that would suggest a serious loss of high frequencies when sitting at large angles from the speakers.

I'm intrigued as omnis should be the ideal type of speaker in my own virtually semi-circular room with speakers placed mid-room and the dining and kitchen areas behind the speakers. Yet, when I visit big-brand omni dealers, I get the "omni" sound rather as you describe, but the imaging is poor compared with the highly directional horns that I currently use. Despite the horns' small sweet spot, I'd trade their astonishing imaging for the better sound in other parts of the room, particularly, as I suspect, room treatment would need to be far more comprehensive with any type other than horns. Electrostatics are not good in my room and, although I'm not had any on home-demo, I doubt I'd be happy with omnis, at least not from my usual listening position.

'm curious as I'm slightly surprised by your own experience with box speakers with all drivers facing forward , although I note that Von Schweikert feature secondary tweeters in their real panels. Unfortunately I don't think there's any Von Schweikert representation in the UK, so a demo is likely impossible.

 

[SeagoatLeo]

Interesting that you describe the sound from your box speakers as comparable with how I visualise omni-directional ones. You say there is virtually no sweet spot, yet the tweeters of your speakers face forward - a direction that would suggest a serious loss of high frequencies when sitting at large angles from the speakers.

I'm intrigued as omnis should be the ideal type of speaker in my own virtually semi-circular room with speakers placed mid-room and the dining and kitchen areas behind the speakers. Yet, when I visit big-brand omni dealers, I get the "omni" sound rather as you describe, but the imaging is poor compared with the highly directional horns that I currently use. Despite the horns' small sweet spot, I'd trade their astonishing imaging for the better sound in other parts of the room, particularly, as I suspect, room treatment would need to be far more comprehensive with any type other than horns. Electrostatics are not good in my room and, although I'm not had any on home-demo, I doubt I'd be happy with omnis, at least not from my usual listening position.

'm curious as I'm slightly surprised by your own experience with box speakers with all drivers facing forward , although I note that Von Schweikert feature secondary tweeters in their real panels. Unfortunately I don't think there's any Von Schweikert representation in the UK, so a demo is likely impossible.

Unfortunate that you cannot experience the Von Schweikert speaker. The rear fully adjustable ribbon super tweeters (as are the front units) permit infinite settings for the desired ambiance in a room. The imaging of the VS speaker is rock solid and unbelievably accurate in recreating the venue image into the microphone(s). I've had box speakers that are great for a central image as well as a few Martin Logan stats that were really tight in seating. Many other great dispersion speakers fail to image well and omni's aren't for me. Panel speakers are also commonly poor imagers. Even the expensive Alsyvox speakers imaging was too large for me despite the beautiful sound. I remember my first introduction to Magnapans with instruments and voices 5 to 8 foot wide.

I've heard the VS Ultra 9 and 11 in $1+ million audio rooms with my LPs and CD sounding as if the performers were directly in front of me. In my own system, I hear similar imaging. It's more dependent on the recording engineering right now. If it's close miked or lacking in substantial reverb, instruments and voices can sound as if they are performing in front of me, to the left or right, sometimes outside the speakers (often out of phase then). One can feel the instrument resonating as well as visualize it/them outside the speakers. My wife and I love it. I'm still have some improvements to cabling and older equipment which will elevate the experience more. I am shocked how good many LPs and CDs I was gave up for their poor sonics (usually overly distant and/or drenched in reverb) can sound musically satisfying and sonically elevated (I have 61,100 LPs/CDs/78s/R2R). Early stereo recordings often tend to be delegated to left and right channels with little center fill (jazz and stereo showcase recordings/ping ponging).

I've heard too many horn speakers that are unsuitable for home use. They also have some extraordinary properties such as a recreation of the body of the music (often with coloration) but the best were huge made for auditorium size spaces (and are super efficient).

 

[Atmasphere]

the best were huge made for auditorium size spaces

Unless they aren't.