Does DSP belong in State of the Art Systems?

[cjfrbw]

What is " digital 'stacking'?

Sorry, going through multiple sequential levels of digital manipulation. I suppose the digital mastering guys do that, anyway, which may be why some of those re-issues of classic vinyl records don't sound as analog as even an original thrift store copy.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Sorry, going through multiple sequential levels of digital manipulation. I suppose the digital mastering guys do that, anyway, which may be why some of those re-issues of classic vinyl records don't sound as analog as even an original thrift store copy.

Oh. I can see where analog fans might find the entire prospect of digital conversion and re-conversion an issue but, for digital sources, the actual DSP is benign. Of course, anything can be overdone but I don't buy it that the mathematical manipulations of DSP are more pernicious than the relatively crude analog equivalents.

 

[pjwd]

Oh. I can see where analog fans might find the entire prospect of digital conversion and re-conversion an issue but, for digital sources, the actual DSP is benign. Of course, anything can be overdone but I don't buy it that the mathematical manipulations of DSP are more pernicious than the relatively crude analog equivalents.

In fact you could argue that putting a digital source through an analogue crossover is a backward step. The pinnacle of digital crossover design will always surpass the precision of the best analogue crossover. Consider linear phase, precise alignment (including adjustments for imperfect drivers) correction of individual drivers etc. As always implementation is the key - it is not a trivial exercise.
I heard the Kyron Gaia recently with their new server and the precision and separation in soundstage was simply stunning. I doubt that could be achieved by an analogue crossover.

Phil

 

[Analog Scott]

Belong? It is utterly essential. Two channel audio that isn’t using certain DSPs simply are not contenders for state of the art. Not even in the same league.

 

[Analog Scott]

Oh. I can see where analog fans might find the entire prospect of digital conversion and re-conversion an issue but, for digital sources, the actual DSP is benign. Of course, anything can be overdone but I don't buy it that the mathematical manipulations of DSP are more pernicious than the relatively crude analog equivalents.

I’m a big vinyl fan. DSP is essential IMO for any reasonable assault on state of the art. There is no conflict between the two

 

[cjfrbw]

Well, digital has gotten so much better, there are much smaller islands for the pure analog guys to stand on. However, may as well not ignite digital vs. analog trench warfare once again.

It's pretty pointless and I enjoy both now after being an analog and toobz guy for decades. I agree that DSP for non-localizable content aka bass at least is an excellent use for it. I still prefer to use analog active crossover.

There are guys who have had elaborate 'all digital' crossover systems that could comb their eyebrows who have gone back to analog for whatever reason.

 

[Solypsa]

In fact you could argue that putting a digital source through an analogue crossover is a backward step.

True. Still, for a variety of reasons mostly subjective, this still happens to a great many digital recordings in the mastering stage....

 

[Kjetil]

^Yamaha Enhancer adds 2nd order distortion to the deep bass. Ok for your mono kitchen streamer speaker I guess.

 

[Chops]

Unless you have no way to properly position your loudspeakers and listening seat, or properly acoustically treat your room, or too lazy to do either or both, then I can see the point behind using DSP.

DSP is a band aid, a crutch. It's masking the issues instead of directly addressing them.

And if you went to the trouble of hunting for the best DAC you could buy, spending upwards of $10k on the DAC, are you seriously comfortable putting a DSP in your system AFTER that $10K DAC, when the DSP you bought costs anywhere between $200 to $1k and uses the cheapest DAC chipset available?

Yeah, I'll pass. Been there and done it, and don't plan on doing it again.

 

[Solypsa]

The rather broad use of the term DSP makes this a tricky thread. Possible uses that come to my mind:

1) Loudspeaker Crossover. May or may not include delay, etc
2) System EQ
3) Dynamic or automatic EQ that responds to room anomalies
4) emulations that 'add' distortion or other euphonic elements

These, if done in the digital domain, are all DSP...

 

[DasguteOhr]

You need a cd transport, streamer with digital out put then a speaker with digtal dsp input e.g neumann, meridian or avantgarde short digital chain.
Analog option a phono with a/d output or pc software for phono.
That doesn't sound as bad as some people think, i forget digital switch for input choice
Exsample speaker

Meridian Audio - Loudspeakers

Built by hand in the UK, the Meridian In-Room and Architectural Loudspeakers feature Digital Signal Processing (DSP) technology.

www.meridian-audio.com

 

[Kal Rubinson]

And if you went to the trouble of hunting for the best DAC you could buy, spending upwards of $10k on the DAC, are you seriously comfortable putting a DSP in your system AFTER that $10K DAC, when the DSP you bought costs anywhere between $200 to $1k and uses the cheapest DAC chipset available?

No rational configuration places the DSP after the DAC. Why incur redundant A/D/A if you already have a digital signal?

These, if done in the digital domain, are all DSP...

Technically, even changing the volume in the digital domain is DSP.

 

[Analog Scott]

Unless you have no way to properly position your loudspeakers and listening seat, or properly acoustically treat your room, or too lazy to do either or both, then I can see the point behind using DSP.

DSP is a band aid, a crutch. It's masking the issues instead of directly addressing them.

And if you went to the trouble of hunting for the best DAC you could buy, spending upwards of $10k on the DAC, are you seriously comfortable putting a DSP in your system AFTER that $10K DAC, when the DSP you bought costs anywhere between $200 to $1k and uses the cheapest DAC chipset available?

Yeah, I'll pass. Been there and done it, and don't plan on doing it again.

Been there done that? Which DSP did you use? There’s more than one…,

 

[Chops]

No rational configuration places the DSP after the DAC. Why incur redundant A/D/A if you already have a digital signal?

If you're using DSP for room correction and you use more than one source, then the DSP will be intersecting the signal between your preamp and amp(s), a.k.a., AFTER the DAC.

You're not going to do room correction on just your CD/streamer side and not on your vinyl/tape side.

And not everyone is using active loudspeakers... Thankfully.

 

[Analog Scott]

If you're using DSP for room correction and you use more than one source, then the DSP will be intersecting the signal between your preamp and amp(s), a.k.a., AFTER the DAC.

You're not going to do room correction on just your CD/streamer side and not on your vinyl/tape side.

And not everyone is using active loudspeakers... Thankfully.

DSP room correction is just one kind of DSP. Speaking of active loudspeakers one of the most significant advances in audio is active DSP crossovers.

Each configuration will depend on what sorts of DSP is being used. Most configurations can keep the system down to one or two DACs in the system.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

If you're using DSP for room correction and you use more than one source, then the DSP will be intersecting the signal between your preamp and amp(s), a.k.a., AFTER the DAC.

You're not going to do room correction on just your CD/streamer side and not on your vinyl/tape side.

And not everyone is using active loudspeakers... Thankfully.

If you have analog sources, you have to digitize them. OTOH, depending on how you implement the DSP, it may have multiple inputs or you can arrange a switch.

Bottom line, though, is whether the value of DSP is worth the price of digitizing your analog sources.

 

[Chops]

If you have analog sources, you have to digitize them. OTOH, depending on how you implement the DSP, it may have multiple inputs or you can arrange a switch.

Bottom line, though, is whether the value of DSP is worth the price of digitizing your analog sources.

Again, proper loudspeaker and listening positions first, two or more subwoofers properly located within the room, then room treatments.

With all of the above being done, you should have no need for any DSP.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Again, proper loudspeaker and listening positions first, two more subwoofers properly located within the room, then room treatments.

With all of the above being done, you should have no need for any DSP.

I wish that was generally true but, most often, it is not possible.

 

[Chops]

I wish that was generally true but, most often, it is not possible.

Hence my last sentence.

I'm quite aware that some may not be able to do all of those to get good sound. Then DSP would be a handy thing to use, but only then.

 

[Analog Scott]

If you have analog sources, you have to digitize them. OTOH, depending on how you implement the DSP, it may have multiple inputs or you can arrange a switch.

Bottom line, though, is whether the value of DSP is worth the price of digitizing your analog sources.

Extremely worth it. No loss and tremendous gains.