Does DSP belong in State of the Art Systems?

Analog Scott

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Again, proper loudspeaker and listening positions first, two or more subwoofers properly located within the room, then room treatments.

With all of the above being done, you should have no need for any DSP.
Depends on one’s goals. You can’t fix listening room reverb or room modes with speaker positioning. You can marginally reduce the damage.

Room construction and treatments first. That is something I am all in on. Of course care with speaker and listener positions.
AND state of the art DSP.

If state of the art is the goal you need dedicated room construction and massive amounts of carefully targeted room treatment that fall in line with the design goals of the speakers themselves.

Of course careful strategic placement of speakers and the listener is part of the formula.
 

Chops

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Kal Rubinson

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Solypsa

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Extremely worth it. No loss and tremendous gains.
Since you responded to @Kal Rubinson - "bottom line, though, is whether the value of DSP is worth the price of digitizing your analog sources" I am curious:

What is your hardware/software signal chain for digitizing and processing analog sources ( presumably vinyl but maybe tape?)? Channel D?
 
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cjf

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Again, proper loudspeaker and listening positions first, two or more subwoofers properly located within the room, then room treatments.

With all of the above being done, you should have no need for any DSP.
This statement is one that I see often on the Web but unfortunately its not that simple. If you want to do it right you should do all the above & use DSP. Without using DSP while using Subs you are only getting a half baked cake. Relying only on those physical dials/knobs will only get you so far (and that's assuming the Sub had useful knobs to begin with).

Unfortunately, I must say, that you probably did not do DSP correctly when you used it. I say this based on your previous comments and the obvious lack of understanding you have on how DSP is implemented...these days.
 
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Chops

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Not some. The vast majority.
Okay. Sure.

This statement is one that I see often on the Web but unfortunately its not that simple. If you want to do it right you should do all the above & use DSP. Without using DSP while using Subs you are only getting a half baked cake. Relying only on those physical dials/knobs will only get you so far (and that's assuming the Sub had useful knobs to begin with).

Unfortunately, I must say, that you probably did not do DSP correctly when you used it. I say this based on your previous comments and the obvious lack of understanding you have on how DSP is implemented...these days.
If it makes you happy thinking all of that, then go right ahead and keep thinking that. On both accounts for that matter.
 

Analog Scott

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Since you responded to @Kal Rubinson - "bottom line, though, is whether the value of DSP is worth the price of digitizing your analog sources" I am curious:

What is your hardware/software signal chain for digitizing and processing analog sources ( presumably vinyl but maybe tape?)? Channel D?
My vinyl playback rig is a Forsell Air Reference TT with the air bearing flywheel and Koetsu Rosewood Platinum cartridge that has been analyzed and brass shimmed/ aligned by JR at Walleytools.
Before getting a digital phono ADC/ DAC I was using an Audio Research SP-10 mk II preamp.
 

Analog Scott

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Since you responded to @Kal Rubinson - "bottom line, though, is whether the value of DSP is worth the price of digitizing your analog sources" I am curious:

What is your hardware/software signal chain for digitizing and processing analog sources ( presumably vinyl but maybe tape?)? Channel D?
Oh and the digital gear. M2tech Joplin mk II digital phono preamp with the M2Tech recommended Van DerGraff mk II dedicated power supply into an RME Fireface UCF II digital interface. All processing done on a Mac Mini. DSP done with IZotope de-clicker and wow and flutter reduction programs. Also I use a couple different tube distortion DSPs
 

Solypsa

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Oh and the digital gear. M2tech Joplin mk II digital phono preamp with the M2Tech recommended Van DerGraff mk II dedicated power supply into an RME Fireface UCF II digital interface. All processing done on a Mac Mini. DSP done with IZotope de-clicker and wow and flutter reduction programs. Also I use a couple different tube distortion DSPs
Thanks.
 
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Kjetil

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My AD-converter is the modest one in a Yamaha WXC-50, sampling 24/48 with some 90 dB effective DR. Enough for vinyl by some 20 dB…
Maybe the late Siegfried Linkwitz could have made a four way crossover for my dipoles but with full range DSP which my system was constructed with 15 years ago (dsp platform, DACs and amps have changed since then) I can tune the stuff properly below Schroeder.
 

Analog Scott

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My AD-converter is the modest one in a Yamaha WXC-50, sampling 24/48 with some 90 dB effective DR. Enough for vinyl by some 20 dB…
Maybe the late Siegfried Linkwitz could have made a four way crossover for my dipoles but with full range DSP which my system was constructed with 15 years ago (dsp platform, DACs and amps have changed since then) I can tune the stuff properly below Schroeder.
I’m sure your AD converter is just fine but I would caution against many claims about the DR and subsequent number of bits needed to accurately capture vinyl. Don’t cut off the lower end of the dynamic range at the top of the noise floor. That noise is part of the sound of vinyl. You want to capture it. Also the noise floor and the upper limits of level of vinyl varies with frequency. So average DR is deceptive. And headroom comes in handy.
 
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Hear Here

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If you want to do it right you should do all the above & use DSP. Without using DSP while using Subs you are only getting a half baked cake.
Well I have to differ on a number of counts.

With a carefully chosen TYPE of speaker to suit the room and very careful setting up, a bit of room treatment (often just carpets, curtains and soft furnishings), there shouldn't be the need for DSP in most rooms.

Careful choice of full-range speakers should mean you don't need subs - these just complicate matters and lead many people to give up on proper manual setting up - it is becoming overwhelming - and resort to DSP!

With proper choice and very well set up speakers, breaking the signal chain to add a processor is not what the signal wants. The minimum processing of the signal is best for the signal, so no tone controls, no equalisers and no DSP. Even though this may be done in the digital domain, it does the signal no favours. If the DSP is built into a full-range amp, the entire frequency range of the signal has to traverse this processor, even though it may be set to only adjust the bass.

If you have really spine-tinglingly exciting speakers, try this. Choose a piece of music that's light on bass and has plenty of excitement at the top end. Switch between DSP filter and no filter. You are likely to find your spine tingles just a little less with the filter engaged. I've demonstrated this to a number of visitors who all agree. Dirac Live, RoomPerfect and MARS have all caused a slight lost in top-end excitement factor, despite the DSPs adjusting only the bass.

A different matter if you have an active system or bi-amping, such that the DSP can be applied only to the bass amp, leaving the top end unmolested by DSP.

That's my experience anyway and I leave Dirac out of my precious signal path. I can still adjust my speakers' bass response as they are hybrid with their own built-in amps that include DSP, while the main signal reached the mid and top without any signal processing.
 
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Chops

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Careful choice of full-range speakers should mean you don't need subs - these just complicate matters and lead many people to give up on proper manual setting up - it is becoming overwhelming - and resort to DSP!
As I've told you time and time again, it does NOT matter what loudspeaker you use, it is absolutely necessary to use two or more subwoofers in the room with any and all loudspeakers. That is the ONLY way you'll get a flat bass response in the room at the listening seat.
 

Analog Scott

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As I've told you time and time again, it does NOT matter what loudspeaker you use, it is absolutely necessary to use two or more subwoofers in the room with any and all loudspeakers. That is the ONLY way you'll get a flat bass response in the room at the listening seat.
Flat and fat.

If one wants an ideal impulse response, the only way in the real world you get there is dedicated construction and massive massive bass trapping first. Then finish the job with DSP and careful positioning.

Swarming the room with more bass doesn’t do anything to reduce reverb or room modes. It just drowns the problems in a sea of bass chaos so they are more or less equally spread throughout the room and frequency spectrum.

End result is sorta kinda flat response and reverb smeared out to about 300-500 milliseconds.

Of course if someone likes that….no arguing preferences.
 

Atmasphere

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I wish that was generally true but, most often, it is not possible.
Why not?
Flat and fat.

If one wants an ideal impulse response, the only way in the real world you get there is dedicated construction and massive massive bass trapping first. Then finish the job with DSP and careful positioning.

Swarming the room with more bass doesn’t do anything to reduce reverb or room modes. It just drowns the problems in a sea of bass chaos so they are more or less equally spread throughout the room and frequency spectrum.


End result is sorta kinda flat response and reverb smeared out to about 300-500 milliseconds.

Of course if someone likes that….no arguing preferences.
Emphasis added: this is false. Here's why:

You cannot tell that a note exists until the entire waveform has past your ear. It usually takes a few iterations of the waveform to know what the note actually is. In the case of bass notes the waveforms are very long. 80Hz is 14 feet; 40Hz is 28 feet. In most rooms, the bass note has bounced off of every surface in the room before you can know what it actually is.

This means that bass is entirely reverberant. But it also means that the bass being reflected by the wall behind the listener can have the ability to cancel the incoming bass before you can even know what frequency it is. This phenomena is known as a Standing Wave.

No amount of power can get rid of that kind of cancellation, which means that if you use DSP and bass traps to fix it, you'll have immense power requirements made of your gear to no avail and bass traps will have to move dynamically about the room to fix the standing waves at various frequencies. Put another way, if there is cancellation, the power you apply to fix it goes to infinity.

By adding subwoofers asymmetrically you can fix this problem without 'drowning in a sea of bass chaos'; keep in mind that bass is already 100% reverberant. You are correct that you don't get flat response. But you do get rid of the enormous peaks and valleys caused by the standing waves, with many more and much smaller peaks and valleys all over the room; evenly distributed. Since the peaks and valleys are so close to each other in frequency they are very hard to detect with the human ear.

It also turns out that its pretty easy to set the values for the subs by ear and get very close to correct. The trick to to make sure the subs do not reproduce anything above 80Hz that would cause them to attract attention to themselves.

Once you get the bass right, you'll find this is 95% or more of the problem with most rooms; the mids and highs calm down due to the fact that our ears have an internal tone control. If the bass is right, the ear places less emphasis on the mids and highs. So if standing waves are not fixed in the room, the DSP might get the mids and highs right but it won't sound right to the ear.

Put another way, as I pointed out earlier on in this thread, do the Distributed Bass Array first, which usually takes care of 95% of your problems, then use the DSP and bass traps to do the other 5%. If you do it the other way around you are wasting your money as the effects will be minimal.
 
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Analog Scott

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Emphasis added: this is false. Here's why:

If it’s false then demonstrate it. Show us a waterfall plot with flat bass and smooth decay that drops off 60 db in 200 milliseconds or less using no room treatment or DSP. I’ve seen the claims. I have yet to see any supporting evidence
You cannot tell that a note exists until the entire waveform has past your ear. It usually takes a few iterations of the waveform to know what the note actually is. In the case of bass notes the waveforms are very long. 80Hz is 14 feet; 40Hz is 28 feet. In most rooms, the bass note has bounced off of every surface in the room before you can know what it actually is.
In most rooms it has bounced off the walls. But it doesn’t have to. That’s what the traps are for. You don’t need the reverberation to have the actual original bass on the recording played by the speakers directly to your ears.



This means that bass is entirely reverberant.


But it also means that the bass being reflected by the wall behind the listener can have the ability to cancel the incoming bass before you can even know what frequency it is. This phenomena is known as a Standing Wave.
The bass is not entirely reverberant. The actual original bass signal is real and present and most importantly all you need and personally all I want.
I am well aware of what a standing wave is. They are the biggest problem in the bass. That is one of the primary points of bass traps. Absorb the bass, prevent the standing wave from propagating. Problem solved.

No amount of power can get rid of that kind of cancellation, which means that if you use DSP and bass traps to fix it, you'll have immense power requirements made of your gear to no avail and bass traps will have to move dynamically about the room to fix the standing waves at various frequencies. Put another way, if there is cancellation, the power you apply to fix it goes to infinity.
Passive bass traps require no power. Active bass traps only require enough power to sufficiently cancel the wave at the pressure zone. And yes diaphragmatic bass traps have to be tuned and strategically placed to maximize their effectiveness. How is that a problem in a dedicated listening room?


By adding subwoofers asymmetrically you can fix this problem without 'drowning in a sea of bass chaos'; keep in mind that bass is already 100% reverberant.
You are correct that you don't get flat response. But you do get rid of the enormous peaks and valleys caused by the standing waves, with many more and much smaller peaks and valleys all over the room; evenly distributed. Since the peaks and valleys are so close to each other in frequency they are very hard to detect with the human ear.
No, bass is NOT 100% reverberation. Where did you get this idea? The reverberation is however 100% added coloration not present on the source material. And swarm arrays don’t fix that. They do drown it. But if I am wrong and you are right it is easy to demonstrate with a waterfall plot showing it. But you have already conceded that it won’t be flat. A waterfall plot will show that it won’t be flat and that it will be fat. And that will manifest itself in bass that sounds slow, smeared and bloated. Not my cup of tea.
 
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Atmasphere

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If it’s false then demonstrate it. Show us a waterfall plot with flat bass and smooth decay that drops off 60 db in 200 milliseconds or less using no room treatment or DSP. I’ve seen the claims. I have yet to see any supporting evidence

In most rooms it has bounced off the walls. But it doesn’t have to. That’s what the traps are for. You don’t need the reverberation to have the actual original bass on the recording played by the speakers directly to your ears.




The bass is not entirely reverberant. The actual original bass signal is real and present and most importantly all you need and personally all I want.
I am well aware of what a standing wave is. They are the biggest problem in the bass. That is one of the primary points of bass traps. Absorb the bass, prevent the standing wave from propagating. Problem solved.


Passive bass traps require no power. Active bass traps only require enough power to sufficiently cancel the wave at the pressure zone. And yes diaphragmatic bass traps have to be tuned and strategically placed to maximize their effectiveness. How is that a problem in a dedicated listening room?



No, bass is NOT 100% reverberation. Where did you get this idea? The reverberation is however 100% added coloration not present on the source material. And swarm arrays don’t fix that. They do drown it. But if I am wrong and you are right it is easy to demonstrate with a waterfall plot showing it. But you have already conceded that it won’t be flat. A waterfall plot will show that it won’t be flat and that it will be fat. And that will manifest itself in bass that sounds slow, smeared and bloated. Not my cup of tea.
I explained in my prior post what is happening. Perhaps go back and do the math. If your room is 30 feet long, at 80Hz the waveform gets two iterations before hitting the rear wall- assuming that they started at the front wall, which they likely didn't. Two iterations isn't enough to allow you to know what the bass note is, only enough for you to know its there. If the bass notes are lower, the issue is magnified since the waveforms are so much longer.

You might want to watch this video of Dr Floyd Toole

You might also want to look into the writings of Dr. Earl Geddes.

If your room is long enough what you say might be true. But it has to be pretty long!

If 30 feet or less, your bass is 100% reverberant before you even know what the bass notes are. Physics doesn't change just because we don't believe it.
 
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Hear Here

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As I've told you time and time again, it does NOT matter what loudspeaker you use, it is absolutely necessary to use two or more subwoofers in the room with any and all loudspeakers. That is the ONLY way you'll get a flat bass response in the room at the listening seat.
That's clearly your opinion and not fact. It's like saying that the bass section of an orchestra requires support from a couple of other bass sections placed elsewhere in the concert hall. What rhymes with rollocks?
 
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Analog Scott

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I explained in my prior post what is happening. Perhaps go back and do the math. If your room is 30 feet long, at 80Hz the waveform gets two iterations before hitting the rear wall- assuming that they started at the front wall, which they likely didn't. Two iterations isn't enough to allow you to know what the bass note is, only enough for you to know its there. If the bass notes are lower, the issue is magnified since the waveforms are so much longer.

You might want to watch this video of Dr Floyd Toole

You might also want to look into the writings of Dr. Earl Geddes.

If your room is long enough what you say might be true. But it has to be pretty long!

If 30 feet or less, your bass is 100% reverberant before you even know what the bass notes are. Physics doesn't change just because we don't believe it.
Just show me the evidence. A waterfall plot will do
 

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