Entreq Tellus grounding,in england

[Don Hills]

When making measurements at these sort of signal levels, everything matters. Even with a good quality cable, simply moving it a few cm on the bench can significantly chage the results.

The Entreq box made a measurable difference in your system. I believe you'd get a similar difference if you just connected all the grounding wires together instead of to the box.

 

[Barry2013]

When making measurements at these sort of signal levels, everything matters. Even with a good quality cable, simply moving it a few cm on the bench can significantly chage the results.

The Entreq box made a measurable difference in your system. I believe you'd get a similar difference if you just connected all the grounding wires together instead of to the box.

Do you mean connecting all the Entreq grounding cables together?

 

[Barry2013]

Thanks to all of Fiddle Faddles hard work, for which we should all be extremely grateful, it seems to me that his tests and a number of subsequent posts have moved this thread to a much higher and relevant level.
Is there any possibility that somebody else with the requisite expertise, appropriate equipment and the Entreq components could do the same tests.
Alternatively, and assuming Barkis is willing and it's a big ask, are there any members in Australia who would be good enough to loan Fiddle Faddle the higher quality cable and soundcard to repeat the tests.

 

[jkeny]

I didn't introduce this info before into this thread as it was just a hive of sneering & snideness with kitty litter, etc. Now that something approaching a mature attitude seems to prevail, maybe this info might be viewed without dismissive sneering & could be worth looking into - I have read somewhere that the black granular contents inside the Entrq box might be mainly magnetite - a naturally occurring oxide of iron. This is not confirmed, AFAIK but may be of interest to consider the electrical conductivity of this material? I would think some expertise in this area would be needed to judge whether this has any potential role in grounding between multiple devices?

Some information here - it seems that in some forms (nano particles) it's electrical behaviour is semiconductor like in nature!

BTW, Just as an interesting aside - magnetite occurs in birds beaks as a navigation organ which uses earth's magnetic fields for navigation - magnetite was used in compasses of old as it is a natural magnet

 

[esldude]

I didn't introduce this info before into this thread as it was just a hive of sneering & snideness with kitty litter, etc. Now that something approaching a mature attitude seems to prevail, maybe this info might be viewed without dismissive sneering & could be worth looking into - I have read somewhere that the black granular contents inside the Entrq box might be mainly magnetite - a naturally occurring oxide of iron. This is not confirmed, AFAIK but may be of interest to consider the electrical conductivity of this material? I would think some expertise in this area would be needed to judge whether this has any potential role in grounding between multiple devices?

Some information here - it seems that in some forms (nano particles) it's electrical behaviour is semiconductor like in nature!

Easy enough to see if the black material is magnetic. Magnetite does have RFI and EMI absorbing properties though it needs to be in a much smaller particle size than the pictures I have seen inside the Entreq.

I would be interested in pulling ground wires together vs the Entreq myself.

And make no mistake, even if this works it is insultingly over-priced.

 

[jkeny]

Easy enough to see if the black material is magnetic.

Sure, if people want to open a box & test it? Probably putting a magnet to the outside of the box would work as a test?

Magnetite does have RFI and EMI absorbing properties though it needs to be in a much smaller particle size than the pictures I have seen inside the Entreq.

I know that some transformer cores are made of ferromagnetic material. I'm not sure your statement is the definitive one about magnetite - do you have any references?

I would be interested in pulling ground wires together vs the Entreq myself.

Sure

And make no mistake, even if this works it is insultingly over-priced.

I'm not really interested in the pricing or otherwise of a product - value is very much a personal choice everyone makes. I'm much more interested in it's possible principles of operation & whether star grounding has the same effect - plus I'm interested in how common is less than optimal grounding in our multi device audio systems (particularly when a computer is part of this playback chain)

 

[Folsom]

The black stuff could be ferrite material, which can burn up RF/increase the impedance path of it (depends where and how it's used).

 

[esldude]

Sure, if people want to open a box & test it? Probably putting a magnet to the outside of the box would work as a test? I know that some transformer cores are made of ferromagnetic material. I'm not sure your statement is the definitive one about magnetite - do you have any references?

http://www.pcimag.com/ext/resources/PCI/Home/Files/PDFs/Virtual_Supplier_Brochures/RockTron.pdf

This is just a quick one. Look at the Magtron product. Spherical magnetite in 10-100 micrometer sizes for RFI/EMI

I have seen other places it is used where the size was between 3 and 10 micrometer for RFI/EMI purposes when mixed with plastic or other material.

You can mix it with other material to get variable conductivity properties though not semi-conductor in the sense our chips are made of semi-conductors.

The test files so graciously provided look like they show a reduction in hum with an increase in higher frequency noise. It is pretty sure just grounding without the box would have gotten rid of the hum. Would that also have picked up the higher frequency noise? If so does the Entreq reduce how much is picked up or not by absorbing some of it ? Do the plates inside become where the noise is picked up? Not so terribly hard to measure what happens with a few more tests and maybe a better quieter way to record. On the optimistic side one could say at least the Entreq really does something.

 

[BE718]

OK, I did some analysis of the starting black segment. First test I did which I am not showing is comparing the captured noise between different trials. This showed some differences so even in digital domain, variations exist as expected.

I then compared the with and without Entreq in track 3. To make sure I have the same analysis applied to both, I compared the segments from 0.5 seconds to 1.5 seconds. Here is the outcome:

As noted, the red graph is without Entreq. Addition of Entreq has substantially reduces harmonics of mains power at 120 and 240 Hz. The picture reverses above 500 Hz however with all the noise peaks being lower without Entreq.

So there is measurable difference. But the cause and whether it is considered an improvement requires further analysis.

I dont consider it an improvement, I just consider it an indication of a fundamental problem in the system.

As I pointed out earlier, and you have confirmed, higher frequency noise increases with Entreq. This isnt a solution. Find out what the fundamental problem is.

 

[BE718]

http://www.pcimag.com/ext/resources/PCI/Home/Files/PDFs/Virtual_Supplier_Brochures/RockTron.pdf

This is just a quick one. Look at the Magtron product. Spherical magnetite in 10-100 micrometer sizes for RFI/EMI

I have seen other places it is used where the size was between 3 and 10 micrometer for RFI/EMI purposes when mixed with plastic or other material.

You can mix it with other material to get the semi-conductor properties. Even in slurries or with plastic. I worked at a place that used it with Ferric Chloride and one way to measure the slurry concentration was passing a voltage thru it to check conductivity.

The test files so graciously provided look like they show a reduction in hum with an increase in higher frequency noise. It is pretty sure just grounding without the box would have gotten rid of the hum. Would that also have picked up the higher frequency noise? If so does the Entreq reduce how much is picked up or not by absorbing some of it ? Do the plates inside become where the noise is picked up? Not so terribly hard to measure what happens with a few more tests and maybe a better quieter way to record.

I think people are getting way ahead of themselves speculating about magnetic properties of this material.

I am sure this is a pretty ordinary grounding issue, that as you say, will simply be solved without any esoteric and expensive products.

 

[esldude]

I dont consider it an improvement, I just consider it an indication of a fundamental problem in the system.

As I pointed out earlier, and you have confirmed, higher frequency noise increases with Entreq. This isnt a solution. Find out what the fundamental problem is.

Well there is the possibility higher frequency noise increases when you run these external ground wires. Maybe the Entreq does increase it or maybe it doesn't. I would bet the Entreq does increase noise compared with just grounding wires. The opposite is possible however.

 

[BE718]

I didn't introduce this info before into this thread as it was just a hive of sneering & snideness with kitty litter, etc. Now that something approaching a mature attitude seems to prevail,

JK,

the problem is that there is a subjective bent who point blank refuse to listen to any technical argument/information. Who are just as dismissive of that POV. hence those at the beginning of the thread calling troll at anyone trying to put tht view forward - like well why dont you just use ordinary cable to join the kit together?.

There seems to be a prevailing view amongst many that there is some kind of "magic" involved with HiFi. Sorry there simply aint. It just engineering. I think this is an example of a basic problem that has been solved a million times before. The entreq is a red herring.

 

[jkeny]

JK,

the problem is that there is a subjective bent who point blank refuse to listen to any technical argument/information. Who are just as dismissive of that POV. hence those at the beginning of the thread calling troll at anyone trying to put tht view forward - like well just use ordinary cable to join the kit together.

There seems to be a prevailing view amongst many that there is some kind of "magic" involved with HiFi. Sorry there simply aint. It just engineering. I think this is an example of a basic problem that has been solved a million times before. The entreq is a red herring.

BE,
It may well be that anything the Entreq does is emulated by star grounding the various audio devices in the replay chain but that is just a claim that hasn't been proven as yet.
It would seem to me that you are guilty of what you accuse others of - being equally dismissive of any view other than your own

 

[BE718]

BE,
It may well be that anything the Entreq does is emulated by star grounding the various audio devices in the replay chain but that is just a claim that hasn't been proven as yet.
It would seem to me that you are guilty of what you accuse others of - being equally dismissive of any view other than your own

Yep, I dismissed it. I dont look for fairies at the bottom of the garden to explain something that is really a basic noise problem, shielding/grounding regime issue.

 

[Folsom]

If it has a nice reduction on lower frequency radiation there isn't a "engineering" solution to circumvent it entirely. For example the chassis of equipment can certainly act to block this, but speaker cables cannot. You can't run shielded speaker cables either because of the problems with phase that occur. Beside that these lower frequencies penetrate shielding that isn't thick enough (like thick chassis aluminum).

 

[amirm]

How much does the cheapest one of these boxes cost and is there a money back guarantee? If so, I can get one to test and if it doesn't do anything, return it.

 

[esldude]

How much does the cheapest one of these boxes cost and is there a money back guarantee? If so, I can get one to test and if it doesn't do anything, return it.

Looks like the Entreq Minimus for $399. I have read they offer a 30 day money back guarantee, but you will have to confirm that.

For best effect they're suggesting using their own Eartha cables which are starting at $99 a pop and up.

They also have claimed it takes 3 days for the grounding effect to burn in, and if you disconnect them, you need another 3 days for the full effect to occur once again.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

BE,
It may well be that anything the Entreq does is emulated by star grounding the various audio devices in the replay chain but that is just a claim that hasn't been proven as yet.

My whole workstation setup has been star grounded since day 1. I set it up that way and paid an extraordinary amount of attention to a high quality grounding setup. But still the box improves the sound. On the one hand, I really wish I had not done the second test now as incorrect conclusions are being drawn regarding the noise and the cause of it (though what I believe are correct conclusions are being drawn by others as well). On the other hand, perhaps it was fortuitous to have done the test as it demonstrates without any dispute that the box did something that could clearly be measured. But I simply do not have the time or inclination to do further tests as the workstation is always busy throughout the year doing its "normal" job

What I can guarantee, however, is that the relative sonic characteristics of the output files I provided - nothwithstanding the noise in both - are precisely what I hear with day-to-day normal use of the boxes in both of my systems.

If Amir could borrow something like a Tellus Silver and do the same sort of tests I did - even use those same original input files in my download, that would accomplish quite a lot in terms of measurement for people who are so inclined. And I'd be interested too, as the results thus far are as intriguing as they are fascinating. But I would ask that he also report his subjective listening impressions and not just the results of ABXing, even if he does not believe in sighted listening impressions for such "tweaks".

My box is just the cheapest in the range by a long shot. The claims made by Entreq in terms of its performance are extremely modest compared even to their second-from the bottom model, let alone the higher models as you progress through the range. The range is a bit confusing but there must be about 4 or 5 tiers of device available and then you have additional combinations available above that. Throw in all the cable types and there must be dozens of Entreq combos that will outperform mine.

 

[BE718]

If it has a nice reduction on lower frequency radiation there isn't a "engineering" solution to circumvent it entirely. For example the chassis of equipment can certainly act to block this, but speaker cables cannot. You can't run shielded speaker cables either because of the problems with phase that occur. Beside that these lower frequencies penetrate shielding that isn't thick enough (like thick chassis aluminum).

Thing is this, under normal circumstances, isnt a problem. Under normal circumstances you dont need to further shield speaker cables or equipment chassis from mains and its harmonics. Secondly the Entreq wouldnt be a solution to that anyway.

There is a problem here, loop or whatever that is causing excessive and abnormal mains pick up.

 

[BE718]

My whole workstation setup has been star grounded since day 1. I set it up that way and paid an extraordinary amount of attention to a high quality grounding setup. But still the box improves the sound. On the one hand, I really wish I had not done the second test now as incorrect conclusions are being drawn regarding the noise and the cause of it (though what I believe are correct conclusions are being drawn by others as well). On the other hand, perhaps it was fortuitous to have done the test as it demonstrates without any dispute that the box did something that could clearly be measured. But I simply do not have the time or inclination to do further tests as the workstation is always busy throughout the year doing its "normal" job
.

Fiddle,

These simply are not incorrect conclusions. You have a noise problem. This indicates a fundamental issue in your system. The fact that the Entreq changed the characteristics of this problem is a red herring. Dont forget that the Entreq also increased HF noise. After nearly 30 years experience in instrumentation looking at systems measuring small dynamic signals which are no different in any relevant way to audio, I can assure you that this can be solved without resorting to esoteric and expensive solutions such as the Entreq.

The changes in the noise characteristic may change your perception of the sound. The noise may also affect the performance of your amp. We only looked at audio frequencies, we dont know whats going on above that which can also impact equipment performance. Also any perceived difference may not actually be an improvement.

I havent listened to the files simply because I dont see the point until the fundamental problem is solved. However Amirs findings come as no surprise to me.