Happy to do all of this if someone wants to lend me one. I looked for a place to buy them and the place I found said nothing about money back guarantee so can't go that way.
Entreq Tellus grounding,in england
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Two thoughts on tests of this nature:
1] A SPDIF output seems like a strange place to ground a component. Is it ohmically to the chassis, the circuit common or the power supply common.
Some SPDIF inputs & outputs are transformer coupled.
2] You need to duct tape down all the wires, cables and units. When reconnecting the wires it's too easy to move things around which will add an uncontrolled variable to the test.
1] A SPDIF output seems like a strange place to ground a component. Is it ohmically to the chassis, the circuit common or the power supply common.
Some SPDIF inputs & outputs are transformer coupled.
2] You need to duct tape down all the wires, cables and units. When reconnecting the wires it's too easy to move things around which will add an uncontrolled variable to the test.
"Gaffers Tape – Also known as Gaff Tape or just “Gaff” among friends, it’s used for everything from holding down cables on the floor to reassembling gear that’s lost a few screws on the road. Gaff Tape is traditionally colored black, sized 2 inches wide for most stage work and has a fabric backing for strength. It also has a special type of adhesive that won’t leave a residue behind, even after months of attachment to a cable or mixing board.
Don’t confuse Gaff with its evil twin, Duct Tape. Duct Tape (or Duck Tape) is the gray or black stuff designed to hold duct pipes together, hence the name, and it can leave the worst type of goo behind after you remove it from a cable or DI box after just a few weeks. Yes, Gaff is twice the price of Duct, but well worth every penny."
http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/...ording_type_for_worship_church_sound_systems/
Don’t confuse Gaff with its evil twin, Duct Tape. Duct Tape (or Duck Tape) is the gray or black stuff designed to hold duct pipes together, hence the name, and it can leave the worst type of goo behind after you remove it from a cable or DI box after just a few weeks. Yes, Gaff is twice the price of Duct, but well worth every penny."
http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/...ording_type_for_worship_church_sound_systems/
Amen brother. Gaffer's tape is the thing. If only I had known in college when my cheap, old, but reliable car had a split seat which I duct taped. Eventually kept a towel over the split and taped area due to the residue.
I think your only hope would be an official dealer. The one here in Australia has actual stock purely for demo purposes (just as an example), but I am not sure they have all products (the catalogue only lists maybe half the total number of Entreq products available). That said, I would personally not feel right asking for an expensive demo box just to do nothing more than measure it (but that is just me). Certainly not in my capacity as a mere budget-minded audiophile using mainstream level equipment with no professional qualifications or experience in the subject at hand - and certainly no expensive multi-thousand dollar Hewlett-Packard noise analysers at hand. But you seem to be quite good at producing pretty and actually meaningful information so as a dealer if I really did believe in my product I would not hesitate to loan you something. Additionally, you do not appear to carry an Everest-sized chip on your shoulder and have an unbiased viewpoint about the whole thing with apparently no agenda to push either way (and I admit that as an Entreq owner, I would like to see it perform well even though if it does not measure well - or at all- I would still use it and enjoy it because it subjectively improves my listening pleasure). Still, I think that you may have trouble to be honest, partly because the philosophy of the company (well one of them anyway) is that measurement does not tell the whole story. I partly agree and party disagree with that philosophy.
As for my own tests, I had to go to Jaycar today to pick up some other stuff for a completely unrelated project. Whilst I was there I did pick up a couple of plugs and some basic cable. I will send you all a PayPal bill
If I am able to cobble together a cable that can - to a reasonable extent - eliminate the mains frequencies and associated harmonics interference, I may try to give the whole test suite another, final go. But only if time permits and the cable I cobble together addresses those mains interference issues and I think the results and efforts are more meritable than my first (or was that second) attempt.I may even try to do other additional tests like a pure sine tone and perhaps even two sine tones to see if there is any measureable effect on IM. I still hesitate though, because I am not really sure I am giving Entreq a fair go here. They sell boxes that cost ten times as much as mine and where the alleged efficacy is far beyond the mere "entry level" products that I own. On the other hand, we don't all own high end gear with balanced connections throughout, so perhaps my results may be more typical of actual "field" results.
If you look into other people's subjective listening impressions, they all rated my combination as pretty low on the list. They all got a decent upgrade even by going to the Silver Minimus. Then they go and try the Silver Tellus and then they also try the Olympus stuff and even turbo-charge it with the Atlantis(?). They are then blown away and couldn't possibly imagine going back to the entry level stuff (fair enough, I think most of use suffer from that - we get used to something can keep wanting to improve whilst never taking a step backwards).
Anyway, what I am trying to say is that if you were trying to get an idea of what the Toyota / Lexus branding was all about, would you just drive Camrys or would you drive everything from a Corolla to a Lexus LFA before making your mind up about what the branding represents? Because if I were to believe the blurb, the top of the line Entreq products compared to mine is like comparing a Lexus LFA to a base model Toyota Corolla (or even worse). So I just don't know if it is entirely fair, even though I will certainly look into having one final crack if I think it will add any additional value to the discussion.
Incidentally, the thing I find most interesting is the additional midrange noise. And I can actually see that happen immediately. There is no "waiting period". Within the time frame it takes me to go to the back of the desk and plug or unplug the cable, I can see the noise floor changing (both in terms of better at low frequencies and worse in the midrange).
I am now wondering if this characteristic might explain why I did not like (at all) the Silver Minimus in my setup? Perhaps that reduced low frequency noise even more but added even more to the midrange? I have experimented in the past with low level dithering (at a 24 bit level) just to see if I can hear differences in noise profiles at such low levels and it does to my ears effect the music that I actually hear, even though the changes to the source material are happening at incredibly low levels far beyond my hearing thresholds and even the noise thresholds of the components themselves. Obviously the effect is not nearly as much as dither noise at 16 bits (which to me is very audible), but enough for me to both notice and to have certain preferences.
With 16 bit dither, for example, I don't like the dithers that bring the noise down to really low levels in the midrange and push it either to the low end or top end. I just prefer a flatter profile where the noise is consistent across the low to mid-band spectrum and then just adds a bit to the top end. For example, I have experimented with all the possible combinations available with the PSP X-dither module and my solid preference time and time again is the flat dither profile with the "B" weighting. This adds flat noise all the way to about 15 KHz and then pushes the remaining quantisation noise up from there to the 22 kHz limit. So it is interesting that from the tests we have seen so far, the box I have is sort of "emulating" the sort "dither profile" that I like.
I have to wonder if this was deliberate on the part of Entreq when designing them or whether it is accidental. But the effect is definitely there - I can repeat it 100% of the time like a well-rehearsed party trick. But why, for example, would you not line the inside of the box with RF shielding if you really wanted to prevent the antenna effect (which I along with others) suspect is possibly happening here? I mean, my Xonar ST card has an RF shield built into it and if you remove it, you can see the noise floor change for the worse. That is why ASUS built it with the shield. My Meridan card, on the other hand, does not have a shield and might party explain why despite using exactly the same hardware, it does not perform as well in noise tests.
By they way, so far as the attitudes and behaviour of people on this forum, there are lately some "science-minded" contributors to this thread who do not necessarily (or at all) believe in the product, want evidence yet are behaving in an approachable and mature way. Quite possibly because not once have they used derogatory terms aimed repeatedly and directly at the product ad nauseam and are merely trying to carry on a worthy discussion so that we can all be educated. I don't mind in the slightest "losing" to these people and being educated by them (for example, jkeny, Amir , Elsdude, etc). Some people are not on that list and I am honestly not sure they themselves even have the remotest clue as to how they repeatedly come across to others (so not just me I can tell you). That is the last thing I will say on that particular subject, apart from emphasising that I am happy to be put right by someone who shows me due respect, but I do not like being repeatedly spoken down to by a schoolyard bully.
This is why from this point forward, certain people will be permanently on my ignore list. I doubt this will have any effect on the merit or quality of the discussion, since there has been far more worthy comments made by some here in the last three days then the rest of the thread puts together.
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I came up with an "engineering" way around Entreq boxes. It will be much improved sound. It won't have the faults of the Entreq boxes either. You put 1/2in aluminum boxes around literally everything in your stereo; appliances & cables.
Obviously not a MacGyver fan. Poo to you
Hey, I can fix it if it ain't broke.
I also know if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
So, Boo to you too!
Thats a shame fiddle because I was just about to ask about your location in Oz as if we are in the same city I would gladly offer to help resolve your noise issue.
See, BE178 might seem to come on too strong, but sounds like a good guy. Don't ignore him.
My opinion is your system is quieter and your sound card is the limiter. Either way, it could be better, and BE178 would help if you let him. Sounds like a win-win to me. And if he can't get it quieter I believe he will have no problem saying so.
I am impressed Fiddle Faddle that you are co-operating with us measurement oriented guys. I don't trust your hearing for the final say, but don't be put off, I don't trust mine either. And if you do that is fine I will respect that. You have done measurements, and look some good has come of it. At least a little understanding for everyone.
And while us measurement guys (at least speaking for myself) have gotten jaded and too quick to dismiss what seems unlikely, look at how interested we become when even a little something different really shows up. We like nothing better than to find the improved widget and understand why it was better.
Its a genuine offer.
I agree the sound card may be the limiting the overall noise level, however the appearance of mains harmonics indicates a wider issue.
First thing to do is terminate the sound card input with a resistor, or even short it out and record the resulting "silence". This will tell us exactly what the noise floor of the soundcard is without anything else plugged in and interfering.
I agree the sound card may be the limiting the overall noise level, however the appearance of mains harmonics indicates a wider issue.
First thing to do is terminate the sound card input with a resistor, or even short it out and record the resulting "silence". This will tell us exactly what the noise floor of the soundcard is without anything else plugged in and interfering.
You took the thoughts right out of my mind. I was thinking this is what I would do were I there.
I have to use two soundcards to do any testing. One to actually play the 24 bit test tracks and one to record in 24 bit from the analogue output of that first card. There is no other 24 bit-capable source component I own apart from a Panasonic blu-ray player which - apart from it being practically impossible to physically integrate into the system (appropriate racks and cabling being the killer issues there), it likely does not have superior performance to a decent dedicated 24-bit sound card. And then there is my experience with optical transports versus computer files. In my experience optical transports sound worse than a comparably priced and well-sorted PCM file playback system and so using my Blu-ray player will in my opinion further remove the quality of the output files with respect to those original 24 bit source files. It's a pain to operate without a TV screen too.
In any event, it is simply completely impossible for me to produce any files for anyone that do not have two lots of noise added to digital silence. Those two lots of noise will of course be noise coming out of the analogue outputs of the sound card used to play back the test material, then in addition to that, there is the noise added by the soundcard performing the ADC functions and recording that back to a 24 bit output file. The second lot of noise will be lower than the first lot of noise because the recording soundcard has a superior specification (jitter and signal to noise ratio being the main improvements) to the playback one. Unless I am missing something fundamental here, the only way to truly measure the noise output from a DAC analogue output is to connect it to an audio analyser such as the HP stuff that HiFi World uses.
I have to disagree that my system has an inherent problem or any problem that requires "fixing". It may not be state of the art, nor is it balanced but I am of the opinion that the performance is typical of the intended performance levels of the components when placed into a practical "field" setup (which is usually inferior to the benchmark testing done under laboratory conditions). The only way to improve performance would be to actually replace both soundcards with professional balanced ones or at least those expensive semi-professional ones that cost well over $1,000 each. And when you start getting into things like that, I might as well not spend any more time on it and instead I'd just recommend you guys do your own testing on equipment of your choosing.
As for getting help from BE718, I will not comment any further on that except to say it won't be happening.
Honestly, though, it sounds like I should just bow out of this thread right now. Not because I am excessively annoyed, but because I don't think I am going to remotely satisfy any measurement guys and it was never intention to get into a debate with you all in the first place. I am merely someone who enjoys what the Entreq gear has to offer, am obviously a satisfied customer and enjoy what it does for my subjective listening experience. And as I have said many times before, I differ from you guys fundamentally because I trust my ears, do not believe in blind testing and am dubious of the ability of measurement to get to the bottom of everything audio-related. I would like to do further "measurement" tests but if there are going to be these constant undertones of fundamental inadequacies at my end (system related, component related or personally related), then my heart just isn't in it.
Sorry.
Wow FF.. you sure went to a lot of trouble to test..and your write ups and logical arguments are great.. admiration at your dedication...
Please dont bow out .. your ears are all that matters at the end of it all.. and its only you you have to satisfy
Please dont bow out .. your ears are all that matters at the end of it all.. and its only you you have to satisfy
Please calm down. My comments were no criticism of what you have done. We are grateful for the trouble you have gone to in order to provide us with measurements. Those measurements are very useful.
You don't need pro cards of more than $1000 to get good results. As I have said I doubt your system has real problems, but the sound cards likely do. It is no slight or insult to say such. In any case we will take what is available and make best use we can of it. Measurement guys always want better measurements. Don't take it personally. Give us what you can, and we will do what is possible with it. No insult to you or your system.
So if you will oblige us with further measures, will we critique the shortcomings? Of course we will. Again not personal, just trying to set the limits of what we are working with. And then people will make of it what they can. Like myself or Amir we will try and find something useful from it. If we don't then don't sweat it as it is not your problem. If we do find something useful, then good on you for providing the data that could be used.
Finally, I will say one more time, I am very appreciative of your efforts to provide us with the data. We have seen already the Entreq is doing something.
If you don't wish to participate further I understand. If you will deign to do so, I am glad for such and will do what I can with it. In any case, you have done well and we all have benefited from it. Thank you for what you have done. You have no reason at all to be sorry.
Most Entreq dealers will let you try the products and allow you to return them without charge apart from carriage.
Thanks for the compliments but realistically, when have the two audio camps ever really come to a common truce? They are so fundamentally opposed in basic audio philosophy that I never, ever seen any viable conclusions that both sides agree on (except for completely ridiculous stuff like weeing on your amplifier makes it sound better...I think even Peter Belt would have drawn the line there...or, of course at the other end of the scale when everyone agrees a really terrible measurement will generally make something sound bad).
The measurement camp will always have the ultimate last-resort weapon. The weapon they bring out when the measurements do actually show a technical variance - the dreaded ABX test. So even if, for example, I were to continue with this and indeed produce something they would be satisfied with (from a technical standpoint), the chances of them subsequently passing an ABX test on the "output" files is next to nil. So in the end, there can only be one "winner" in my view.
Even before that, I can see no way that I can satisfy their technical requirements. They want to use a system that has specifications far beyond what my system possesses. I just looked up the specs of my "playback" card. It has a signal to noise ratio of 114 dB. That is as good as that particular products gets. BE718 has been criticising the system, however his own M-DAC - despite him saying it is nothing special, is actually a very decent piece of kit that measures extremely well and has a balanced connection. So as I have said several times before, if you are approaching this expecting a certain level of performance but simply cannot achieve it, what is the point of going forward from there. It gets back to my car analogy. My system is no more broken than my Toyota Corolla. My Corolla does not perform anywhere near the level of a Toyota Aurion in a straight line, but it performs perfectly to specification. And if I were to fit a supercharger, it still would not perform like an Aurion but it sure as heck will perform better.
This is my fundamental issue with continuing. The lack of acceptance of my rig as a test subject and the lack of acknowledgement that an improvement in performance (measured, subjective or both) actually points to the box being the reason. I really do not want to get into this groundhog type of loop where every time I produce any evidence then everything is blamed apart from the notion that the product actually does do something.
Combine that with the attitude of some who appear to have been on a dedicated, consistent, concerted, provocative and derogatory crusade to denigrate the product at every single opportunity and one really has to question the point of it all. The measurement guys know they always win and I am honestly not sure they necessarily deserve to in this instance. So arguably better to leave it up in the air.
They are so fundamentally opposed in basic audio philosophy that I never, ever seen any viable conclusions that both sides agree on (except for completely ridiculous stuff like weeing on your amplifier makes it sound better...I think even Peter Belt would have drawn the line there...or, of course at the other end of the scale when everyone agrees a really terrible measurement will generally make something sound bad).The measurement camp will always have the ultimate last-resort weapon. The weapon they bring out when the measurements do actually show a technical variance - the dreaded ABX test. So even if, for example, I were to continue with this and indeed produce something they would be satisfied with (from a technical standpoint), the chances of them subsequently passing an ABX test on the "output" files is next to nil. So in the end, there can only be one "winner" in my view.
Even before that, I can see no way that I can satisfy their technical requirements. They want to use a system that has specifications far beyond what my system possesses. I just looked up the specs of my "playback" card. It has a signal to noise ratio of 114 dB. That is as good as that particular products gets. BE718 has been criticising the system, however his own M-DAC - despite him saying it is nothing special, is actually a very decent piece of kit that measures extremely well and has a balanced connection. So as I have said several times before, if you are approaching this expecting a certain level of performance but simply cannot achieve it, what is the point of going forward from there. It gets back to my car analogy. My system is no more broken than my Toyota Corolla. My Corolla does not perform anywhere near the level of a Toyota Aurion in a straight line, but it performs perfectly to specification. And if I were to fit a supercharger, it still would not perform like an Aurion but it sure as heck will perform better.
This is my fundamental issue with continuing. The lack of acceptance of my rig as a test subject and the lack of acknowledgement that an improvement in performance (measured, subjective or both) actually points to the box being the reason. I really do not want to get into this groundhog type of loop where every time I produce any evidence then everything is blamed apart from the notion that the product actually does do something.
Combine that with the attitude of some who appear to have been on a dedicated, consistent, concerted, provocative and derogatory crusade to denigrate the product at every single opportunity and one really has to question the point of it all. The measurement guys know they always win and I am honestly not sure they necessarily deserve to in this instance. So arguably better to leave it up in the air.
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