Well those that believe this box who special capabilities beyond that of some ordinary cable joined to a connector block, for a start. Take a wander though this forum and you will find many examples practically religious belief in technically unfounded products.
Entreq Tellus grounding,in england
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Well those that believe this box who special capabilities beyond that of some ordinary cable joined to a connector block, for a start. Take a wander though this forum and you will find many examples practically religious belief in technically unfounded products.
Well if you want to spend thousands on the box instead of maybe a few dollars to solve the problem (if you even have one) that's up to you I suppose.
No, I have just pointed out the technical reality and made a few sarcastic comments.
I don't need to measure it. It's a box where grounds are connected together. Unless you can technically describe the other technical "magic" it performs?
However if you want to send me one, I will measure it.
I would be highly surprised, actually amazed if it improved the noise levels in my system. In fact I would fully expect it to harm them. Do you think it's going to help with an overall level that's already - 123dB(A) with no discrete components above -150dB? This essentially the performance limit of the ADC chip.
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But it sure means it is a vey expensive way to go about solving a problem that you might not even have. I would also say that bits of ordinary cable and a connector block would probably be more effective.
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This is a perfect example of "magic". Under normal circumstances none of this is required to achieve low noise levels in a system.
Just as a matter of interest BE can you share with us your qualifications, professional experience and the extent of your experience of hearing high end systems.
I ask because you previously acknowledged your lack of familiarity with other grounding aids such as MIT and Tara Labs cables and I don't recall you commenting on the Tripoint boxes and cables which have also attracted significant favourable comment from experienced WBF members with high end or very high end systems.
You just come across as dogmatic and even diehard in your views, which of course you are fully entitled to express using appropriate language, but it all seems to be in a technical bubble.
I ask because you previously acknowledged your lack of familiarity with other grounding aids such as MIT and Tara Labs cables and I don't recall you commenting on the Tripoint boxes and cables which have also attracted significant favourable comment from experienced WBF members with high end or very high end systems.
You just come across as dogmatic and even diehard in your views, which of course you are fully entitled to express using appropriate language, but it all seems to be in a technical bubble.
My point is that the argument has already been made that Fiddle's recording system has earthing problems & the Entreq helps improve this - so the same argument will be forwarded here with regard to my ABX positive results i.e "you heard a difference in audio files when recorded with a system that had mains break-through". I'm just anticipating the objections that I expect coming from others stating that these positive ABX results "prove nothing of consequence"
Hello BE718. Your post got me to wondering. If a few dollars would solve the problem, then I have three questions if you don't mind.
1st. What is the problem?
2nd. How would this box eliminate said problem?
3rd. To eliminate the box, what would you do for a few dollars to correct the problem instead of using said box?
Tom
Yes & I welcome a more detailed discussion of grounding in multi-device audio systems. For instance, one of the main issues with grounding is preventing the subtle currents of signal returns from being polluted by the far higher currents of PS returns - remember ground is badly named - it's the return path for currents, all currents. So, yes, I would suggest that all signal grounds should be configured as a star ground & all PS ground returns as a separate star ground & these two ground points ultimately connected together.
I asked you already to describe your system & it's grounding arrangements as you seem to have exemplary low noise levels judging by your plots & statements.
This could well be a learning for many here who don't seem to have such systems
Just what the world needs, more sarcasm... Geez thanks Be
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+1 belated thanks to Fiddle Faddle for his recent efforts in trying to get some measurements in on Entreq.
I think some on here really do need to get a sense of humour.
I also thank Fiddle, the information he has provided has been very interesting and useful.
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Hi Barry,
No problem. My background is instrumentation and measurements systems (close to 30 years experience) in the aerospace industry. This is measuring and analysing small dynamic signals that are no different in any relevant way to audio. These could be strain, vibration, acoustic noise, dynamic pressures, temperatures etc, etc - essentially any physical parameter. This is an environment where accuracy and quality are absolutely paramount. Design changes are based on the information, if you get it wrong worst case potential scenario is a plane falls out the sky. So really no different to an audio recording engineer, just in a much more disciplined environment.
So the integrity of the measurements is crucial. These measurement systems, which have included analogue tape in the past and now obviously digital recording, may have signal conditioning/amplification in harsh physical and electrical environments such as aero engine test cells. Other times the measurement gear is in temperature controlled environments for stability. The systems can be large and complex, sometimes hundreds of channels of dynamic and maybe 1000 channels of transient data. Sometimes you have to deal with a truck load of kit temporarily placed in room with hundreds of signal wires, often hundreds of metres long, literally going "everywhere".
I have seen a lot of "noise" problems over the years. The problems are no different in nature to those that are found in a hifi system.
I have only looked at MIT cables at your prompting the other day. I thought they were horribly expensive and have no idea why they need these boxes attached to them which according to another member are used to changed the electrical characteristics of the cables. This can only be done to deliberately change the sound of the cable. Why would you do that?????? I am not going to make any comment on others experience with some of these products other than to say, if you feel they are needed then you probably have a more fundamental problem thats needs to be addressed first. Fiddles is a perfect example in this thread.
I have heard many high end systems over the years, they have ranged from impressive and neutral to awful and coloured. There is no technical bubble, but the experience does allow you to dismiss some of the HiFi worlds predilection for wild and wacky.
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Hello again sir. While your background and experience with regards to your profession are definitely admirable IMO, your answer does not relate to how these measurements correlate with the end result as to what hits one's ears. Please allow me to disclose something...I am not a big fan of MIT. Their cables color the sound too much for my liking. This is only my opinion, many folks love MIT. With that said, I do like Transparent. Same thing. A "box" that alters one or more aspect of the cable.
Here is my question. If you have such vast knowledge of every aspect of a cable, is it inappropriate to ask if you have ever taken the results you have learned within your 30 years of experience and applied them to real world listening on a higher fidelity system to see what audible changes might occur when changing certain parameters?
Tom
Hi Treitz
Without being hands on with the system it is extremely difficult to diagnose. Single ended systems can be a bag of hurt in this respect.
I would suspect at a guess that multiple bits of kit have earth connections which may be connected to the shield on the SE signal. Your basic earth loop.. Currents will flow in the loop and hey presto unwanted noise.
The entreq is putting parallel paths in and affecting the current flow and noise.
I would first establish what the noise floor of the soundcard ADC is. Terminate its input with a resistor or short it out an make the measurement again. This will tell you the cards performance and if it has any fundamental issues.
Then I would experiment by buying some lengths of cable and RCA plugs at the local electronics shop. Connect their shields to the wire and terminate the other ends together. Take more measurements and see what effect it has.
Otherwise you have to look at the earthing connections on your kit. If you have multiple bits of kit with safety earth connections that are also connected to the signal shield then you will potentially have problems. I would never recommend anyone play with the safety earth connection. Its there for a reason.
My system is double insulated. It doesnt have an earth connection.
SE is a dumb idea WRT to all of this. allowing earth currents to flow in a signal conductor is just plain dumb. I would recommend that if possible use balanced equipment.
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http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/brisson/brisson.html
Don't know if they are still available, but Mr. Brission of MIT did offer DIY guidance on making your own speaker cable. Poles of articulation man, that is what it is all about.
Usually just small caps, resistance of a couple or three dozen ohms across the leads that sort of thing. Here are some tear down pics of some of the MIT boxes.
http://imgur.com/a/FHOHX
You also can read an early patent:
https://www.google.com/patents/US5144522
Don't know if they are still available, but Mr. Brission of MIT did offer DIY guidance on making your own speaker cable. Poles of articulation man, that is what it is all about.
Usually just small caps, resistance of a couple or three dozen ohms across the leads that sort of thing. Here are some tear down pics of some of the MIT boxes.
http://imgur.com/a/FHOHX
You also can read an early patent:
https://www.google.com/patents/US5144522
Hi tom,
Without having listened to the MIT cables, I would suggest that your findings about them are probably spot on accurate. They look like they are specifically designed to alter the sound.
I think I need to correct you here, I have only pointed out the major technical aspects of cables which have the potential to affect sound. The correlation to perceived sound will always be very variable due to the fact that said cables sit in a circuit, they are not a single parameter in isolation and obviously the circuit design of different bits of kit is different.
In answer to the question however, I gave up many years ago playing with things like cables to make tiny variations in sound. If a cable is making a large difference to the sound then you need to ask the question why. I use high quality but "ordinary" cables made by the likes of Belden, Canare and Mogami.
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Thank you BE718 for the follow up. I have to head on to a date with the pillow for now and I look forward to carrying on with our conversation. I will say this though. You had mentioned that;
Tom
I would like to bounce your statement back to you in another way (another viewpoint). If a cable isn't making a large difference to the sound then you need to ask the question why. Based upon my experience in listening, this was my first thought when I read this. With that said, the pillow is calling. Have a good evening sir. Nice chatting with you tonight.
Tom
It very simple, there is no ground connection. The kit is double insulated. I also use balanced connection where possible, however when single ended the noise (mains pick up) only increases a small amount, we are still talking -135/40 dB
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