I am always optimistic when trying new things.... Pain and Disappointment are my friends
They're not my friends. They are, however, my constant companion.
Entreq Tellus grounding,in england
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They're not my friends. They are, however, my constant companion.
Learn to love them
they ain't going anywhere, if they do.. I have managed this feat for a lengthy period you will find the cost of banishing them is too high by half.
Let me give a parallel to this. We had this thread once where Greg, MikeL and others were defending de-magnetizing of LPs making them sound better. We argued for a while. Then Gary volunteered to capture a virgin LP versus one de-magnetized. He uploaded the files and amazing at it seems, there were clear audible differences! These easily showed up in waveform analysis. I fell of my chair after hearing and seeing that. The data was the data and it had to be accepted.
The story did not end there though. I hypothesized that maybe just playing an LP twice without de-mag would have the same effect. And you guessed it, I was right! The king of audio is always right.
So all the people who reported a difference before and after de-mag were right. They did hear a difference. The skeptics were wrong that this was an impossibility. With both sides working, we created new science. That we were hearing generational differences. And one that shows a virgin LP sounds worse than the second play! The LP for the lack of a better word, needed break in!!!
Here is the thread: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?2701-Reviewing-the-Furutec-Demag
Yeah the furutech demag works. Robbyd on this forum demoed out to me and it was pretty clear, he gets a lot of flak on the UK forums for claiming it works though
No it doesn't mean any of that. It is your opinion that they cannot understand it. You are welcome to that opinion but is not a stance that works in real life when it comes to opinion of experts and people who do this work for a living.
Don't you wonder why our expensive audio gear does not come with a box with a copper wire in it and some soft stuff thrown in there?
That is not evidence that something works. It is data to be analyzed.
I don't accept any of those statements factual at face value either so that is an argument for someone else
.Well we demonstrated pretty conclusively that even if the box does nothing, the same improvements will be observed because no two plays of an LP sounds the same. That has to be considered in any claim of value for that box.
Well your no fun then
I respect your stance on this, you are practicing what you preach. Beyond reproach by my estimation.
Really! With speakers at $165,000.00, veritable benevolence personified.
Keith said he did not sell foo! He did not say he stocked his shop with rebranded richer sounds products.
If you buy those speakers from Keith he will teach you how to make balloon animals while he sets them up. It's his USP.
Well your no fun then
I respect your stance on this, you are practicing what you preach. Beyond reproach by my estimation.
More the pity, Richer Sounds sell some superbly measuring speakers.
No it doesn't mean any of that. It is your opinion that they cannot understand it. You are welcome to that opinion but is not a stance that works in real life when it comes to opinion of experts and people who do this work for a living.
Don't you wonder why our expensive audio gear does not come with a box with a copper wire in it and some soft stuff thrown in there?
That is not evidence that something works. It is data to be analyzed.
I don't accept any of those statements factual at face value either so that is an argument for someone else
So can you or any other member give me or point me to correlated scientific measurements which are generally accepted as explaining why cables do sound different?
Yes you can change the electrical parameters of the cable, L,C,R inductance, capacitance and resistance, if you change then enough the cable will sound different, an example would be Townsend's Isolda, which has very high capacitance.
Keith.
I have not bothered with this forum for a while & only just looked in recently & had a quick tour around to see what's going on.
I have no claims or experience of the Entreq Tellus but I will listen to the reports of those who have used it & keep an open-mind that it may perform some grounding function that is currently not being provided by their existing configuration & which audibly improves their listening experience.
I see the usual attacks/excuses made to denigrate & dismiss those who report such audible benefits. They range across
- placebo
- scientifically impossible
- no unsighted evidence
- if it works your grounding is broken
- have I left any out?
I think it worthwhile to contrast a diametrically different approach towards similar products.
Let's look at the Intona thread here & see the attitude towards it by the same people. Bear in mind this is an USB isolator
- no questions are asked about the precise mechanism of operation - what exactly is being blocked to what audible benefit.
- no suggestion that if it audibly improves your system, then your system is broken
- no questions are asked about the audible benefit
- no demands for unsighted testing of this device from Keith (Purite) - is it because he now sells them?
- no demands for measurements (this thread appeared in the measurements section) of the DAC analogue output to show audible changes
- no interest in a follow up when BE718 claims he can't hear any difference with the Intona & when he says he will measure it.
- praise for the clean pcb layout & use of FPGAs (reminds me of this lyric "I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons"
- am I missing any?
If one wants to look further into the cognitive dissonance on display one only needs to look at the posts (mostly from the same posters) on Uptone Audio Regen thread - also in the measurements section. Again, it's informative to compare the approach found there to this thread & see the contrast to the Intona thread
I have no claims or experience of the Entreq Tellus but I will listen to the reports of those who have used it & keep an open-mind that it may perform some grounding function that is currently not being provided by their existing configuration & which audibly improves their listening experience.
I see the usual attacks/excuses made to denigrate & dismiss those who report such audible benefits. They range across
- placebo
- scientifically impossible
- no unsighted evidence
- if it works your grounding is broken
- have I left any out?
I think it worthwhile to contrast a diametrically different approach towards similar products.
Let's look at the Intona thread here & see the attitude towards it by the same people. Bear in mind this is an USB isolator
- no questions are asked about the precise mechanism of operation - what exactly is being blocked to what audible benefit.
- no suggestion that if it audibly improves your system, then your system is broken
- no questions are asked about the audible benefit
- no demands for unsighted testing of this device from Keith (Purite) - is it because he now sells them?
- no demands for measurements (this thread appeared in the measurements section) of the DAC analogue output to show audible changes
- no interest in a follow up when BE718 claims he can't hear any difference with the Intona & when he says he will measure it.
- praise for the clean pcb layout & use of FPGAs (reminds me of this lyric "I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons"
- am I missing any?
If one wants to look further into the cognitive dissonance on display one only needs to look at the posts (mostly from the same posters) on Uptone Audio Regen thread - also in the measurements section. Again, it's informative to compare the approach found there to this thread & see the contrast to the Intona thread
I'm glad you stopped in to say Hey Girl, because you brought up some good points. But there's always a conflict between someone who is a designer, and the customer. Generally speaking if one is to bust out a lot of information with the lingo an electronics engineer would be mostly familiar with related to concept (depending on their field) it wouldn't do much of anything for the customers. Answers that relate what is going on to those without a dense background are often just simply passed over; or much worse they tend to highlight one particular number or concept and forgo the entirety of the device. The point I suppose is it really is better for most to just have a listen.
The problem here is that the USB device tells us upfront what it does, so if someone can hear it or not they can speculate some about it or take it at its word. The Entreq clearly is deceptive so there's no way to really jump to conclusions about how it is working because we're are even sure of its true intent.
Just to answer your last point, first - just because a device doesn't have a good premise for its operation, doesn't therefore mean it should be disregarded/denigrated(cat litter, etc.)/denied as possibly having an audible effect.
There are two USB devices I mentioned - the Intona USB isolator & the second one (which I didn't talk much about), the Uptone Audio Regen. Both had plausible mechanisms of operation - the Regen even showed measurements in the USB signal. But the Intona was accepted with open arms (without any measurements or questions) & the Regen was slated & measured with further slating as a result. I just find the difference in approach interesting.
I'm open to the effect of the Entreq being purely an issue of ground issues between devices but I don't accept that this therefore means the devices are broken. If this is the view then this should also pertain to the Intona, also but I have not seen such an opinion expressed in the Intona thread nor the demand for unsighted listening tests.
I'm of the opinion that different ground noise spectrums can have very different audible effects on connected audio devices.
Whatever, I believe, I find the differing attitude to different devices (which address the same grounding area) to be telling & interesting.
I also know it's human nature to be fearful/distrustful/etc of something we don't understand but I would hope that there is a certain amount of self-awareness about this psychological predisposition & a more mature response when faced with this.
To your first point, I totally agree - just listen & be damned. If it's placebo & it continues to perform then fine. I would have the same attitude to a prescribed drug - if it provided the desired effect & continued to do so, I would be crazy to ignore such benefits, wouldn't I? Luckily, this isn't as important as health so I'm not sure why there are those who always insist on denigrating what they don't understand, can't measure or simply, don't like the price of.
It's a hobby, to be enjoyed & some enjoy investigating the outer reaches of it!!
For two reasons Amir.
One I respect your knowledge and expertise which of course is different from agreeing with you on everything.
Second I have a clear recollection of you saying in a recent post which I thought was on this thread, but may well have been on another one, words to the effect of just don't get me going on cables. That suggested to me that you could fruitfully add knowledge to this issue notwithstanding some reluctance to do so.
Keith's response doesn't really answer my question while Jkeny's post above supports the relevance of my question.
So yes I would value your views on what seems to me to a different approach to the evaluation of cables and the evaluation of Entreq/Tripoint ground boxes and cables.
I'm not saying that at all, I'm just pointing out that there's a big distinction between the different devices that makes talking about one easy, and the other hard. They'd be be similarly discussed if the Entreq wasn't deceptive in it's workings.
Appreciate that
. There are two constructs that can lead to audible differences in cables that I know of:1. Speaker cables. We can show that if the impedance of the speaker is low enough, and the cable long enough, it can cause colorations due to speaker cable becoming significant part of the total impedance. Since speaker impedance varies with frequency, we essentially have an analog EQ there.
2. Ground loops and currents in interconnects. We all of course hear hum which is the extreme manifestation of this.
Barry, first off cables carry used signal, the Entreq does not have that purpose. We don't know its true purpose so LCR measurements don't help us much. I've already proposed some questions to Entreq users that would help us determine perhaps what they do.
As far as cables the LCR are directly related to sound, but there's a few open questions still. How each LCR measurement is achieved may play a role in the actual sound of the device. It's easy to describe one possibility of running two large flat wires parallel to each other for an L value, or running two round wires twisted together to achieve an identical L value. One attenuates noise, the other does not. Will one sound superior? The same question arises for C, does the way the conductors are arranged create the same sound for a given value of C, as having a lower dielectric that gives the same C but without the same arrangement of conductors as the first cable? Do silver cables sound the same with their lower R value, as copper cables increased in size to create the same R value? The answer might be that no matter how the LCR is achieved, you get the same sound. But... I have my doubts since cables seem to sound differently so often. I'm sure some of the long standing cable companies could tell you, you know, if they'd tell anyone, ever.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Yes LMAO!
When defense of your position is the above kind of thinking (and involves kitty litter).....your position is not likely one you can reasonably defend. Sorry this kind of thinking is not deserving of a "mature" response.
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