Entreq Tellus grounding,in england

[BE718]

I have not bothered with this forum for a while & only just looked in recently & had a quick tour around to see what's going on.
I have no claims or experience of the Entreq Tellus but I will listen to the reports of those who have used it & keep an open-mind that it may perform some grounding function that is currently not being provided by their existing configuration & which audibly improves their listening experience.

I see the usual attacks/excuses made to denigrate & dismiss those who report such audible benefits. They range across
- placebo
- scientifically impossible
- no unsighted evidence
- if it works your grounding is broken
- have I left any out?

I think it worthwhile to contrast a diametrically different approach towards similar products.

Let's look at the Intona thread here & see the attitude towards it by the same people. Bear in mind this is an USB isolator
- no questions are asked about the precise mechanism of operation - what exactly is being blocked to what audible benefit.
- no suggestion that if it audibly improves your system, then your system is broken
- no questions are asked about the audible benefit
- no demands for unsighted testing of this device from Keith (Purite) - is it because he now sells them?
- no demands for measurements (this thread appeared in the measurements section) of the DAC analogue output to show audible changes
- no interest in a follow up when BE718 claims he can't hear any difference with the Intona & when he says he will measure it.
- praise for the clean pcb layout & use of FPGAs (reminds me of this lyric "I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons"
- am I missing any?

If one wants to look further into the cognitive dissonance on display one only needs to look at the posts (mostly from the same posters) on Uptone Audio Regen thread - also in the measurements section. Again, it's informative to compare the approach found there to this thread & see the contrast to the Intona thread

JK the "attacks"have quite demonstrably been coming from the side that believes in the product. There is a clear faction that dont wish to see the product examined or criticised. A definite sense of "Emporers New Clothes" here. Some dont want to hear that he might be naked. You further contribute to the ad hominem with your comments above. Your intent is obviously not to discuss the product and its efficacy, but to attack the individuals.

Yes there have been some sarcastic comments regarding the design of this entrail box, but they are very justified and people with technical knowledge are absolutely correct to be sceptical and somewhat incredulous.

Regarding the Intona, from the information we have it does appear to be a well thought out, designed and tested product and lacks the ludicrous marketing claims of the regen. Unlike the regen it will provide correct isolation from the PC and doesnt suffer from design errors such as inserting resistors in the ground. Simple conversations with both product representatives told a very interesting and differing story. Ones what I would consider "garden shed" operation without the necessary technical resources and the other is competently "engineered".

Whether either will provide any benefit to the SQ is up for debate. With both products I find the differences so small that I am not sure they even exist. However between the two products, from what we have learnt from the regen and Intona threads, I know which I would be looking to buy. I know which I think has been correctly designed, I know which I think will realise the most benefit if its actually needed in your system. Guess what, it aint the regen. The regen has been slammed for good reason, as of yet there has been no reason to praise or criticise the Intona ( in terms of audio ).

I simply havent had time to perform the measurements on the Intona yet. If it shows no measurable benefit then that is what will be stated. I suspect it wont, but at least we will be able to confirm if it degrades the dac output like the Regen has the potential to.


The effects discussed (placebo etc) are all very real and relevant. Denying their potential to affect outcomes is extremely blinkered and lacks any kind of credibility....oh and of course your system grounding regime is deficient if it requires a badly made plywood box full of bent bits of copper and kitty litter to make it work better.....and no I dont believe in some kind of "magic" that is unknown to science that makes this box effective.

BTW, if you really feel the need to link your components grounds together, I would suggest just using some lengths of ordinary and very inexpensive bits of wire, this will be far more effective.

 

[Geardaddy]

Organic, Swedish, electrically grounded:

 

[amirm]

Organic, Swedish, electrically grounded:

View attachment 25670

That right there is really cute....

 

[Geardaddy]

Ironically, my wife reminded me I need to clean the cat box earlier this evening....

 

[Rodney Gold]

I always wonder why other folk are so concerned at what others spend their money on.. my money , my choice .. don't rain on my parade

 

[jkeny]

I'm not saying that at all, I'm just pointing out that there's a big distinction between the different devices that makes talking about one easy, and the other hard. They'd be be similarly discussed if the Entreq wasn't deceptive in it's workings.

I'm not sure if you meant the meaning that the highlighted phrase implies - are you suggesting there is something deceptive about the Entreq, meaning misleading? Or do you mean that the mode of operation (if any) is unknown or that a similar effect could be achieved by stout grounding wires between boxes?

 

[jkeny]

Appreciate that . There are two constructs that can lead to audible differences in cables that I know of:

1. Speaker cables. We can show that if the impedance of the speaker is low enough, and the cable long enough, it can cause colorations due to speaker cable becoming significant part of the total impedance. Since speaker impedance varies with frequency, we essentially have an analog EQ there.

2. Ground loops and currents in interconnects. We all of course hear hum which is the extreme manifestation of this.

Yes & your second point is the most interesting & relevant to grounding.
Any further insights into spectrum & amplitude of such ground noise & it's audible effects on audio devices in the playback chain?
This is the area where it becomes a bit less strictly defined in terms of making audio devices immune from external ground noise issues.

 

[jkeny]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Yes LMAO!

When defense of your position is the above kind of thinking (and involves kitty litter).....your position is not likely one you can reasonably defend. Sorry this kind of thinking is not deserving of a "mature" response.

I'm sure the oft mentioned forum dictum "we are better than this" applies to this post!

 

[jkeny]

JK the "attacks"have quite demonstrably been coming from the side that believes in the product. There is a clear faction that dont wish to see the product examined or criticised. A definite sense of "Emporers New Clothes" here. Some dont want to hear that he might be naked. You further contribute to the ad hominem with your comments above. Your intent is obviously not to discuss the product and its efficacy, but to attack the individuals.

As I have not heard the product, nor have you, we cannot discuss it's audible effects. We can surmise about it's possible mode of action & I find your suggestion that if it has an audible effect then your audio devices are broken could equally apply to many products, including the Intona. I'm commenting on the display of one-sidedness that is evident here in discussing this product.

Yes there have been some sarcastic comments regarding the design of this entrail box, but they are very justified and people with technical knowledge are absolutely correct to be sceptical and somewhat incredulous.

Does this use of denigrating phrases help the discussion?

Regarding the Intona, from the information we have it does appear to be a well thought out, designed and tested product and lacks the ludicrous marketing claims of the regen. Unlike the regen it will provide correct isolation from the PC and doesnt suffer from design errors such as inserting resistors in the ground. Simple conversations with both product representatives told a very interesting and differing story. Ones what I would consider "garden shed" operation without the necessary technical resources and the other is competently "engineered".

OK, you prefer the marketing of one over the other, you feel the developer of one tells a better story than the other but to your last point - what exactly is "garden shed" about one & "competently Engineered" about the other? What is it "competently engineered" to actually do? - Provide 5KV isolation from voltage spikes or something that actually relates to audio?

Whether either will provide any benefit to the SQ is up for debate. With both products I find the differences so small that I am not sure they even exist. However between the two products, from what we have learnt from the regen and Intona threads, I know which I would be looking to buy. I know which I think has been correctly designed, I know which I think will realise the most benefit if its actually needed in your system. Guess what, it aint the regen. The regen has been slammed for good reason, as of yet there has been no reason to praise or criticise the Intona ( in terms of audio ).

I don't fathom your logic - why would you even consider buying anything which patently has no audible effect in your system?

I simply havent had time to perform the measurements on the Intona yet. If it shows no measurable benefit then that is what will be stated. I suspect it wont, but at least we will be able to confirm if it degrades the dac output like the Regen has the potential to.

I predict no measurement analysis will be undertaken. I'm sure there are many here who would be grateful for the guidance that the measurements might reveal & they would consider it a great saving if it can be shown that a stout earth wire between devices can provide the same effect as what these grounding/isolation devices do.

The effects discussed (placebo etc) are all very real and relevant. Denying their potential to affect outcomes is extremely blinkered and lacks any kind of credibility....oh and of course your system grounding regime is deficient if it requires a badly made plywood box full of bent bits of copper and kitty litter to make it work better.....and no I dont believe in some kind of "magic" that is unknown to science that makes this box effective.

Do these disparaging remarks help in having a reasonable discussion? As Amir is wont to say "we are better than this"

BTW, if you really feel the need to link your components grounds together, I would suggest just using some lengths of ordinary and very inexpensive bits of wire, this will be far more effective.

Sure, I know but I would be interested in your demonstrating that this will provide the same audible effects as the Intona or the Entreq - it would be a real step forward in the discussion.

 

[BE718]

As I have not heard the product, nor have you, we cannot discuss it's audible effects. We can surmise about it's possible mode of action & I find your suggestion that if it has an audible effect then your audio devices are broken could equally apply to many products, including the Intona. I'm commenting on the display of one-sidedness that is evident here in discussing this product.

Does this use of denigrating phrases help the discussion?

OK, you prefer the marketing of one over the other, you feel the developer of one tells a better story than the other but to your last point - what exactly is "garden shed" about one & "competently Engineered" about the other? What is it "competently engineered" to actually do? - Provide 5KV isolation from voltage spikes or something that actually relates to audio?

I don't fathom your logic - why would you even consider buying anything which patently has no audible effect in your system?

I predict no measurement analysis will be undertaken. I'm sure there are many here who would be grateful for the guidance that the measurements might reveal & they would consider it a great saving if it can be shown that a stout earth wire between devices can provide the same effect as what these grounding/isolation devices do.


Do these disparaging remarks help in having a reasonable discussion? As Amir is wont to say "we are better than this"

Sure, I know but I would be interested in your demonstrating that this will provide the same audible effects as the Intona or the Entreq - it would be a real step forward in the discussion.

Its not one sided, its an obvious conclusion. I say the same thing about the now apparent necessity of USB "improvers". Whats wrong with your DAC that makes it necessary?

Entrail OMG thats funny, auto correct for once substituted an appropriate word It wasnt deliberate, but I can see why some would say it is indeed full of .....

Its not about marketing. Considering that you have extolled the virtues of "USB Improvers" such as the regen and you are apparently an electronics (DAC) designer, I am somewhat shocked you havent looked at the Intona internal picture on the thread and understood what it is doing and why that has the potential to be beneficial in some circumstances. Or indeed the fact that, over and above this, it will also do a similar thing to the regen.

Why? I agree why would you? Hence why I said "if its actually needed in your system".

Why do you predict that I wont measure the device? Is that a challenge?

You have obviously had a sense of humor bypass today. Oh well.

I dont feel the need to demonstrate anything, I dont need to test if a short piece of wire will work better than a box full of unidentified granular material at connecting equipment earths together.

 

[Purite Audio]

What I find fascinating is how the notion that such a product and it's efficacy gains tenure. Fifty years ago did the HiFi buying public make the effort to understand just how equipment works, is the current situation just a reflection of general'dumbing down' or has technology become so advanced that it has simply dislocated from the general public, no one cares how something works as long as it does?
Keith.

 

[Rodney Gold]

Keith , those who want to buy in to it obviously hear a difference , even if its in their mind , its a trusim to them and they can do a cost benefit anlysis and choose to spend their money on it.
It's pretty mickey mouse in terms of Audiophile spend.. and what I mean is that there wont be a huge takeup among folk interested in hifi..just a niche group
Why spoil their fun?
After all , people spend vast amounts on worshiping on some deity or other that has yet to be proven to exist

 

[spazmatron]

Piezoelectric materials can be found in a few ares in certain companies power line products... I hazard a guess this is not just some clever way to create a marketing oriented USP.

What I find interesting is when we go to a great sounding gig that's a amplified even, mixed and all.there will be not such gizmos in the chain. It's all pro audio gear that while may not be cheap, is a lot cheaper than hifi. It's hard for me to understand then why we need all these things at home?

I was front row at a John grant gig in Brighton a few months back... Sound was out of this world, normally I don't think much of events like these fidelity wise. No cables that were £2000 per inch, no insane isolation devices, no stillpoints! No entreq, no tripoint... Etc...

 

[bonzo75]

Keith , those who want to buy in to it obviously hear a difference , even if its in their mind , its a trusim to them and they can do a cost benefit anlysis and choose to spend their money on it.
It's pretty mickey mouse in terms of Audiophile spend.. and what I mean is that there wont be a huge takeup among folk interested in hifi..just a niche group
Why spoil their fun?
After all , people spend vast amounts on worshiping on some deity or other that has yet to be proven to exist

Sorry I disagree with that. Such forums should not exist to tell people that what you believe in does not work but is fine as long as it's fun. But I don't think one should denigrate a tweak without experience just because it's a tweak, and automatically assume it does not work

 

[Purite Audio]

Keith , those who want to buy in to it obviously hear a difference , even if its in their mind , its a trusim to them and they can do a cost benefit anlysis and choose to spend their money on it.
It's pretty mickey mouse in terms of Audiophile spend.. and what I mean is that there wont be a huge takeup among folk interested in hifi..just a niche group
Why spoil their fun?
After all , people spend vast amounts on worshiping on some deity or other that has yet to be proven to exist

Rod but placebos only work until you discover that they are indeed placebos, so when you evaluate unsighted that affect disappears.
My point was that perhaps in the past when hobbyists had a greater technical understanding this sort of product would never have existed. I am old enough to remember when component reviews only dealt, with their facilities and measured specification, there was hardly any subjective discussion,any sound comparisons were only in respect to a known standard, ie comparing the midrange of speaker a, to a Quad electrostatic.
Keith.

 

[Blizzard]

Rod but placebos only work until you discover that they are indeed placebos, so when you evaluate unsighted that affect disappears.
My point was that perhaps in the past when hobbyists had a greater technical understanding this sort of product would never have existed. I am old enough to remember when component reviews only dealt, with their facilities and measured specification, there was hardly any subjective discussion,any sound comparisons were only in respect to a known standard, ie comparing the midrange of speaker a, to a Quad electrostatic.
Keith.

Reminds me of these guys back in high school who were going around selling catnip to all the young punks telling them it was weed. They kept coming back to buy more saying it was awesome stuff Until they heard that it was actually catnip. That's when they went into denial.

 

[Rodney Gold]

But Keith.. its all subjective anyway .
no amounts of deconstructing a product and trying to prove it does nothing will sway those that "believe"
I look at 100's of arguments here .. with signal changes or any changes ,based on a micro level ..like 1.0v vs 1.02v .. and I would challenge anyone to prove that they are in any way audible.
Let those who want to play with exotic toys you consider foo , do so.
At this level , most audiophiles are not stupid or poor.. there is no need for a white knight to come save them from themselves

 

[Blizzard]

But Keith.. its all subjective anyway .
no amounts of deconstructing a product and trying to prove it does nothing will sway those that "believe"
I look at 100's of arguments here .. with signal changes or any changes ,based on a micro level ..like 1.0v vs 1.02v .. and I would challenge anyone to prove that they are in any way audible.
Let those who want to play with exotic toys you consider foo , do so.
At this level , most audiophiles are not stupid or poor.. there is no need for a white knight to come save them from themselves

Yeah you're right. Soak them for all they are worth. They could be buying worse things like crystal meth laced with drano.

 

[Purite Audio]

But Keith.. its all subjective anyway .
no amounts of deconstructing a product and trying to prove it does nothing will sway those that "believe"
I look at 100's of arguments here .. with signal changes or any changes ,based on a micro level ..like 1.0v vs 1.02v .. and I would challenge anyone to prove that they are in any way audible.
Let those who want to play with exotic toys you consider foo , do so.
At this level , most audiophiles are not stupid or poor.. there is no need for a white knight to come save them from themselves

You would be content then to have spent thousands of dollars, Tripont something or other is $50k on a product that has no effect whatsoever?
You wouldn't feel the tiniest bit deceived?
Keith.

 

[spazmatron]

Yeah you're right. Soak them for all they are worth. They could be buying worse things like crystal meth laced with drano.

Is that piezoelectric?