Marc I do sell technically the finest products, John Atkinson stated that Weiss DAC202 was the best measuring piece of equipment he had tested in 25 Years, the Grimm LS1 loudspeakers are the best measuring pair of loudspeakers available,
TAD compression drivers are the finest available the GPA Monaco is many times more speed accurate than any other turntable.
Read my signature I am always satisfied with the best.
How you guys can buy equipment that has no physical mechanism to improve sound quality, and then be so very reluctant
to conduct an unsighted test or even open a box !
Keith.
While I am sceptical I can see how it may-potentially be beneficial.
However opening it up is not really going to tell you much apart from how crude in design it looks, after all when you visit one of your UK customers do you go and dig up a foot of the earth and go "ooh yeah that is prime grounding there!", or look at the bonding and typical average UK "earth pipe" and go "yeah that will be good"
As I mentioned earlier, changing the earth connection to the pipe improved the noise floor in my equipment and subjectively sounded better for it, the electrician was also surprised on the level of influence.
But that does not defend the Entreq product just considerations.
In my case I was taking delivery of some new speaker cables for a home demo and both my local dealer and the UK distributor came along. While we were listening the distributor popped out, returned and hooked up a small wooden box to my CD player and the sound quality immediately went to a significantly better level. It was completely out of the blue and the improvement was immediately apparent. The box was a Silver Minimus. We then added a silver Tellus and the improvement increased still further.
That's how I started down the Entreq road and I am delighted I did.
The speaker cables I was demoing over the next few days and which had been highly reviewed didn't match up to their claims. I then discovered on the internet that Entreq also made cables and I demoed them shortly afterwards, bought and have progressively upgraded thereafter.
I am secure in what I hear with Entreq and see no need to measure or blind test.
Marc I do sell technically the finest products, John Atkinson stated that Weiss DAC202 was the best measuring piece of equipment he had tested in 25 Years, the Grimm LS1 loudspeakers are the best measuring pair of loudspeakers available,
TAD compression drivers are the finest available the GPA Monaco is many times more speed accurate than any other turntable.
Read my signature I am always satisfied with the best.
How you guys can buy equipment that has no physical mechanism to improve sound quality, and then be so very reluctant
to conduct an unsighted test or even open a box !
Keith.
OK, how about the following: I will set up a blind test of the Entreq if you post the uncorrected frequency response of your Cessaro Listz (which I bet is not going to look pretty).
If you are unwilling to do this, please have the intellectual honesty to stop repeating the same tired line over and over again.
Keith, I'm talking about a well measuring rig of Technics SL1200/Phillips 1st gen 80's cdp/Devialet, Halcro amps, ATC, Cerwin Vega spkrs. Your chosen gear may measure a tad better, but not night and day. And yet I confidently predict you'd run for the hills if you had to listen to this list I've provided. Similar figures, radically different sound. No, you choose equipment based on a hole in the market (top end horns), like the sound, a side benefit being the excellent measurements. And expectation bias kicks in well and truly. You're being hypocritical if you really say you're immune to the very bias you accuse all of us of being prone to and have chosen a boutique brand like Liszt based JUST on measurements. Come on, you may think we're saps, but not in everything !
I fully understand if an uber objective worldview can't reconcile the tweaks you despair of, I have no prob w/that. I myself look scornfully on SR, Lessloss, Steinmusic, Pete Belt etc, but truth is a more elusive concept than you give it credit for.
This reminds me of Richard Dawkins interviewing religious figures worldwide for years now, and despairing the human race still "believe" despite the lack of evidence. I mean, God doesn't exactly measure v. easily. And I say this as a non-believer myself. But I do understand the deep psychological mechanisms that mean Dawkins will go to his grave muttering he just doesn't understand the gullibility of the human race.
Devialet does measure well but as reported earlier there are many Devialet owners who say it sounds better with Entreq grounding.
Mass expectation bias doesn't seem to me to be a very convincing explanation of their individual experiences.
Long before I'd put $15K into these boxes and cables, I'd hire an electrician with a ground resistance test meter to check my ground rod and measure the resistance on one of the Entreq boxes.
Has anyone measured the resistance on the $129. Eartha copper cable verses the $1639. Atlantis?
The standard length cables are only 1.65 meters long, do you think there's a big enought difference in resistance to justify the $1.5K difference in price? These are ground wires, not signal cables.
You can buy 24 AWG solid silver cotton insulated wire for $8.99/foot.
Keith
Why do you, and many others, insist on a blind test?
Do you buy, drink your wine, blind?
Do you order and eat your food, blind?
Do you have someone bring you the clothes you are interested in, with no labels?
Can you name anything you have bought, blind?
Why do you insist this criterion be applied to audio, and no where else?
Marc Hi, well not strictly true, while it is perfectly possible to make a valve amp measure as well as solid state, why would you bother because it would sound like a solid state amp, and you didn't choose your valves I suspect because they sounded like SS.
Devialet measures well and sounds exactly like any other competently designed solid state amp, we had one here for a month it was fine.
It is completely fine that you prefer valves, I am just promoting the idea of understanding why they sound different.
Keith.
Keith,
there are quite a few valve related amps that measure incredibly well and also are very well received, had this debate with Ethan and others in the past because it is a too simple a narrative.
Look to the McIntosh most recent MC275 (especially the anniversary model), Audio Reference , those with good designed and implemented tetrode-ultraliner modes,etc.
Key is in using these products correctly; within operational spec in terms of both watts and impedance (taps), and with the right speakers and preamp for the product.
But the McIntosh tube amps show how close they can be in performance to many SS (yes the very best SS will measure better in every way) , and yet still be loved by many for their sound (ironically for both their SS and tube models).
I do agree there are many tubes that do not measure well, or have extreme limitations, but the very good ones that are well received show that there is something else beyond assumption tubes preferred for their average-to-poor measurements.
Marc Hi, well not strictly true, while it is perfectly possible to make a valve amp measure as well as solid state, why would you bother because it would sound like a solid state amp, and you didn't choose your valves I suspect because they sounded like SS.
Devialet measures well and sounds exactly like any other competently designed solid state amp, we had one here for a month it was fine.
It is completely fine that you prefer valves, I am just promoting the idea of understanding why they sound different.
Keith.
I have A/Bed Devialet 5 times against Krell, Levinson, and AR, including Krell and AR integrated, and each time was highly disappointed. I did so many demos because I wanted to like it, since that would have helped me get rid of the rest of the rack and keep only one nice looking box with one set of wires. Unfortunately, it was just disappointing on every aspect that I can think of. Tonality, soundstage, separation, a lot of complex music came out in a mush. I expect any combo of dac/pre/power to sound better
Keith, you have avoided the question. I asked YOU, not someone else.
When was the last time YOU, asked for the wine you were going to buy, be brought to YOU, blind!!!
Do YOU shop blind??
I know there are some very good, experts, in the wine field, tea, coffee, etc, who test, and buy, blind; perfume designers.
There are experts who test car modifications, blind, and are good at it.
How many of the rest of us do these things?
How many of the things YOU buy, do YOU buy blind????
Long before I'd put $15K into these boxes and cables, I'd hire an electrician with a ground resistance test meter to check my ground rod and measure the resistance on one of the Entreq boxes.
Has anyone measured the resistance on the $129. Eartha copper cable verses the $1639. Atlantis?
The standard length cables are only 1.65 meters long, do you think there's a big enought difference in resistance to justify the $1.5K difference in price? These are ground wires, not signal cables.
You can buy 24 AWG solid silver cotton insulated wire for $8.99/foot.
But if people hear a difference between cotton insulated wire for $9/foot and Eartha Atlantis, why doesn't science explain why? I think EEs have too much trust in mankind's knowing all about nature's laws.
I spend many hours with the original Tripoint Troy using their Silver versus about nine other ground cables. None were anywhere near the sound of the Silver. But now with the Troy Signature, the Troy SE ground made the Silver sound broken.
I doubt if scientists will bother to explain such sonic differences as Ohm's and other "laws" work well enough to get along in circuit designs.
What some so-called "objectivists" continue to fail to understand is that focusing on a single working hypothesis and supporting measurement of how a device operates is not what the scientific method is about.
The Oxford English Dictionary defines the scientific method as "a method or procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
Any piece of equipment we are considering is evaluated here where at all possible unseen, it is much easier with Dacs for example where you can just plug them into a preamp, even then we try to level match the output.
The ear is so easily fooled, but a lot of people have difficulty believing that.
Keith.
I can screen shot the in room response, it isn't good, whether it is the Grimm LS1's or the Cessaro Liszt .
I might be able to find the TAD compression drivers FR.
Keith.
What some so-called "objectivists" continue to fail to understand is that focusing on a single working hypothesis and supporting measurement of how a device operates is not what the scientific method is about.
The Oxford English Dictionary defines the scientific method as "a method or procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
Yes, it is all a sequence moving toward prediction. I think also that we need to remember in hypothesis testing that we can logically only prove that a hypothesis is rejected. So we close in on the truth. Ohm's law is predictive enough to make circuits work, not to explain all that is going on.
I heard Paradigm speakers measure pretty flat as well (haven't verified personally). But I think we can swap a 3.5k Paradigm for the Liszt. That will keep both parties flat
