Entreq Tellus grounding

The UK price is £3,000 just had that confirmed with Fraser of Kog.

Been experimenting with amplifier output grounding on the negative binding post on my two Devialet units. Tried Challenger Eartha first, sounded broken... horrible sound. At that point was ready to give up on the basis that this particular tweak didn't work with the Devialet.

Then swapped out Challengers for Apollo. Wow!!! Huge improvement. The really interesting thing is that it sounded so good off-axis. So outside of sweet spot. The main thing seemed to be an improvement in timing and a holographic soundstage. And the consistent soundstage at different seating positions. It was incredible actually.

Then tried Atlantis. Brand new ones so didn't expect much. Oh wow. Some really interesting things started happening. As I left the music playing it seemed to get better and more profound. You could really feel the musicians communicating with one another through the music and the dynamic shading was just incredible! Piano was out of this world.

Really want to try Olympus or Poseidon next... this tweak has taken my already souped up Devialet to a new level. :)

Guillaume

Wow...good to know...i have had similar experiences as i have moved through cables and in fact found more improvement in cables than the grounding box as i recall 2 years ago when i was experimenting with various iterations.
 
Reporting from Budgetville ;)I finally received a Minimus Silver from my local distributer to compare to the plain Minimus. Based on my experience with the plain Minimus and Eartha Konstantin, I will refrain from serious judgemental listening for at least two days, as hard as that is to resist. But if I don't wait, it won't be a fair fight. I'll just say that I did a very brief "sneak peak" (as in listened to one of my test tracks) about half an hour after plugging it in and certainly was not disappointed. Anyway, I will report back in a week and I hope my findings will be useful to those who like me, are on a budget and were individual components in their systems might only be worth about 4 times the price of the entry level silver boxes (so say up to around $3K per component).
 
Reporting from Budgetville ;)I finally received a Minimus Silver from my local distributer to compare to the plain Minimus. Based on my experience with the plain Minimus and Eartha Konstantin, I will refrain from serious judgemental listening for at least two days, as hard as that is to resist. But if I don't wait, it won't be a fair fight. I'll just say that I did a very brief "sneak peak" (as in listened to one of my test tracks) about half an hour after plugging it in and certainly was not disappointed. Anyway, I will report back in a week and I hope my findings will be useful to those who like me, are on a budget and were individual components in their systems might only be worth about 4 times the price of the entry level silver boxes (so say up to around $3K per component).

Good luck!
 
I'm now a couple of days into my Minimus Copper versus Minimus Silver comparison (Eartha Konstantin throughout) and I have to say I am stunned and befuddled (befiddled?) to say the least. And the reason is simple: Having already used the Minimus Copper for three weeks, I was simply expecting that (a) the Minimus Silver would simply be "more" of the Minimus Copper and (b) any differences between the two boxes would be fairly subtle, perhaps barely even audible to me. After all, it is the same cable, the same connection point - everything is exactly the same - except we know the Silver version apparently has some silver in it :)

But boy, was I wrong! Not only is the difference between the Minimus Copper and Minimus Silver a profound one - but they are not even remotely the same in terms of sonic character. If any of you are old-school violinists (or old school at heart), the differences between the Copper and Silver are exactly like the differences between a Pirastro Eudoxa violin string (Minimus Copper) and a Pirastro Olive violin string (Minimus Silver). The relative price differences are the same and the sonic differences are exactly the same too! What does this mean if you are not a violinist? In a nutshell it means that the Minimus Copper has a smoother, more polite, less gutsy sound but with a bit of midrange glare or emphasis, whereas the Minimus Silver really lays it on the line - it's a bit more earthy, gritty, detailed, three-dimensional with a more integrated sounding midrange and simply packs more sonic punch with a more accurate texture rendition. Or I could even draw a comparison with classic microphones: the Minimus Copper is the U47 and the Minimus Silver is the M50. It's particularly noticeable with large scale orchestral works. The Minimus Silver makes this sort of music sound noticeably more effortless - it's exactly like you'd moved to a much bigger amp that gave you 3 dB more of RMS headroom. Not only is it more effortless, but cymbal crashes in particular are definitely much more realistic sounding than with the Minimus Copper. But all of this does come at a price - the extra detail and texture come at a slight price to smoothness and politeness - something that the inoffensive-all-round Minimus Copper excels at.

If I am being pedantic to the point of saying which of the two is more "accurate" then yes, I would have to give it to the Silver. The reason is that when I tested both the Copper and Silver on my audio workstation, I made a recording from a 24 bit source and compared the two outputs (Copper and Silver) to that original source. The Silver was closer to the original source than the Copper. And the differences in the character of the output files were the same as what I have described earlier.

But when it comes to actually putting the boxes to work in a system, such as my headphone setup with Fostex TH600 headphones, Musical Fidelity M1 amplifier, Rega Apollo-R CD player, Gigawatt PF1 power strip and Audioquest / Wireworld cabling, the results were much less predictable than merely saying that two Silvers work best. In actual fact, the first time I connected the Silver in lieu of the Copper to the amplifier, I was disappointed. It shifted the character of the sound in a direction that I did not like. I then went back to the Copper and was happy again. Then I tried connecting the Silver to the CD player. That was a lot better! It was the same result that I achieved on my workstation - the Silver is happier when working in the "digital" domain and the Copper happy in the "analogue" domain.

Of course, you'd think that if the Silver is technically more accurate, then you could just bombard the system with Entreq Silver all round. But the problem is that every system and every recording has shortcomings (even the very best) and therefore the Entreq will either help tune them out, compliment them or - as a worst case - possibly even make them worse. That is what happened with my early tests - the Silver simply added more of the type of "character" my setup already had to begin with and sonically it just went too far and was not as enjoyable to listen to. But the totally different character of the Copper box complimented the system perfectly. On the workstation it was different because there I always want my "output" to match the input as closely as possible, so Silver is best there - it is "truer" to the source than the Copper is. And the Silver seems to like being connected to the SPDIF output on the CD player as well, even though I obviously do not use the digital connections for playback, using instead the DAC built into the player.

The bottom line - at least in my experience - is that you just have to completely forget about the cost of the components and cables in the Entreq range and also be prepared to do mixing and matching - for example, using different types of boxes at different points rather than simply decide to use the same type throughout. Effectively they become another tuning device. Two of the thirty test tracks I have been listening to actually sound better if I use Copper all round. But the other 28 sound better if the Silver works in the digital domain whilst the Copper in the analogue domain.

I suppose it is possible that you have an amazing, almost perfectly transparent system and always listen to the most amazing recordings ever made, you'd tune the system with the very best Entreq boxes and cables. But remember that I'm reporting at the relative "budget" end of things where a total system won't cost more than a new Toyota Corolla. Such systems are always going to be more compromised than the really high end stuff.

I'll just throw one more spanner into the works here: The Silver box is proving to be more successful more of the time when listening to either true analogue material or true 24 bit material (as opposed to say, a redbook standard CD). The Copper box is great too in these cases but the Silver just seems to be much more in it's element here and true to the source. But when stuck in a 16 bit domain, the Copper seems to shine -at least when you are talking about connecting these boxes and cables to "analogue" grounding points. Whether this is some sort of esoteric relationship between lowered noise floors and 16 bit limitations I cannot really say, but I thought it an interesting observation to report. This is even consistent if I reduce the word length of my 24 bit material to 16 bit, dithering using one of the very best dithers on the market - PSP X-Dither. Same thing. Once in the 16 bit domain, the Copper seemed to produce a more pleasing result when used in the "analogue" domain.

One thing is for certain when it comes to Entreq. You can experiment and mix and match and try combinations endlessly until you die of old age. Or you can just say to yourself, geez, I could be here forever trying to achieve my vision of tuning perfection and nothing works perfectly 100% of the time anyway, so I'll use the combination that I think I can live with day in and day out and that does not do anything obviously offensive. I guess that when you are using Entreq boxes and cables, it is like looking at your just-cleaned kitchen under a microscope. It might look great to the naked eye but are you really prepared for your cleaning job to come under microscopic scrutiny? Well, you'd better make sure everything else is really sorted to within an inch of it's life first, otherwise the Entreq gear could send you off onto a wayward tangent and you'll be left floundering!
 
Fiddle faddle, wow what an interesting discourse, and more enlightening than some (all? :confused:) of my posts.
I would heartily concur that forget price pts and just mix things up a bit. You've gone a lot further than most experimenting. My positives were Apollo lead from preamp to S. Tellus, cumulative Apollos to my remaining 7 components, S. Cleanus passive filter to mains, O. Minimus grounding to this S. Cleanus. My negatives were add-on Atlantis box, replacing Apollo leads w/Atlantis leads, S. Minimus/Apollo amp -ve spkr terminal grounding.
My only disagreement would be that the pricier higher end stuff won't benefit proportionately. Can't imagine an I Pod needing this stuff, but guys like Audiocrack and Mike Lavigne have hundreds of thousands spent on gear, and grounding is proving invaluable to them.
In my more modest system, Entreq has given me the equivalent of an amp upgrade, and has more than paid for itself.
 
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Super analysis , thanks for taking the time .
 
My only disagreement would be that the pricier higher end stuff won't benefit proportionately. Can't imagine an I Pod needing this stuff, but guys like Audiocrack and Mike Lavigne have hundreds of thousands spent on gear, and grounding is proving invaluable to them.

Sorry if I said or implied that. I didn't actually mean it like that. I don't own high end gear with which to experiment with but personally I could imagine the boxes making anything from small to huge differences with gear in all price ranges. After all, if one owns an incredible system, I could see the effects of the boxes being magnified due to the sheer level of existing transparency, but I can also see that the system might be so unbelievably good, they might not automatically produce the profound changes I noted on my budget priced (but still "serious") stuff. Then again they might. As we all agree though experimentation is the key. The "problem" with Entreq is the sheer possible number of combinations. It's just not really possible to try every box / cable combo on every single little bit of metal sticking out the back of every component!!

The only generalisation I feel fairly safe in making is that if you have an analogue source (say turntable or open reel) or your source material is true 24 bit then the better Entreq stuff should produce a more predictable result. For example, the Silver box gave wonderful and consistent results when I used it with my Project RPM 9.1 turntable with an Ortofon Rondo Bronze MC cartridge as the source. And conversely, the more technical shortcomings of the source material, the more mixing, matching and experimentation was needed. At the extreme end of tweaking-gone-bad, one example in my testing stood out in stark contrast - the CD layer of the RCA Living Stereo SACD of Grofe Grand Canyon Suite. It didn't want to go anywhere near any Entreq silver. It just spat the dummy. It far was happier left alone altogether. I believe this is due to the shortcomings of both the original source material, the format (and possibly having been down-sampled from DSD 64 as opposed to the far superior DSD formats of late) and the Entreq was just magnifying all of those deficiencies.

But it's really funny how all this so closely parallels my years of violin study. I'd try lots of different string types and even different gauges. As did the pro violinists. The funny thing is that back in the old days, a favoured string combination was a Eudoxa for the "A" string and an Olive for the "G" string. Then you might use silver wound or aluminium wound American brand stuff on the "D" and then for the "E", again you could tune the sound. Infact I never ever saw the instrument of a pro violinist with all four strings of an identical type (things are different nowadays though, convenience rules). But back then, they were mixed and matched to maximise the sonic potential of the instrument - exactly what we have to do here with Entreq.

I actually wrote to my Entreq dealer today giving him an update. I told him that I never anticipated such dramatic changes between the copper and silver boxes when the cable remained the same and that as a result, deciding which two boxes to buy (I will likely buy one each of the Copper and Silver) was amongst one of the hardest audio equipment decisions I have ever had to make. Even now, I am in the process of creating a compilation CD which will have 34 excerpts lasting 39 minutes. The first 39 minutes will be mixed with copper on the workstation - the second 39 minutes will be mixed using silver. I think I know what I will like better, but I have asked the retailer for the weekend in order to make a final decision.
 
That is a really interesting and thorough analysis Fiddle Faddle and thank you for taking the time to post your results.
There have been some reviews notably by Roy Gregory who preferred the copper earth cable on his amplifiers so your experience bears out the Entreq advice to experiment in order to get the best match to your own individual system and not to assume that the more expensive option will automatically be the best choice.
Look forward to reading more!
 
Fiddle Faddle,
You are well named, while you are fiddling about w/this stuff, the naysayers are saying stop faddling LOL!
The UK rep Frazer very much backs you up saying a step at a time, experiment, don't expect the more advanced options to always work
Eg a well heeled UK customer just declared he was swapping out an Entreq option for the most expensive variation, all in one go. Frazer really advised against it, the customer countermanded him and went ahead anyhow. A week later, he came back to Frazer w/his tail between his legs, and they went back to 'as was'. Now a couple of more advanced options have been tried, but not all is working out better than 'as was'.
One step at a time.
 
Fiddle Faddle,
You are well named, while you are fiddling about w/this stuff, the naysayers are saying stop faddling LOL!
The UK rep Frazer very much backs you up saying a step at a time, experiment, don't expect the more advanced options to always work
Eg a well heeled UK customer just declared he was swapping out an Entreq option for the most expensive variation, all in one go. Frazer really advised against it, the customer countermanded him and went ahead anyhow. A week later, he came back to Frazer w/his tail between his legs, and they went back to 'as was'. Now a couple of more advanced options have been tried, but not all is working out better than 'as was'.
One step at a time.

All - this has been our experience on this side of the pond, as well. Experiment changing one thing at a time. I found this to be the case in my own system. Some cable/box combinations work better than other combinations.

John
 
Thanks for all the feedback everyone. After another few rounds of intensive listening sessions over the last day I have finally made my decision: I will be going with the two plain copper Minimus boxes with the Eartha Konstantin cables as opposed to mixing and matching the copper and silver boxes (or using two silver boxes). The main reason being that despite the undeniably better things the silver box does (as outlined in my previous posts), it has one serious issue that I simply cannot get my head around despite my best and most willing of efforts: When it comes to massed violins, the silver box makes them sound like all the players have swapped to steel core strings and are using too much rosin on a cold and humid day. This drove me absolutely nuts in my actual violin playing days and I can see I would not live easily with it long term as a characteristic of an audio system. Infact whenever I've auditioned gear over the last 35 years, this has been a characteristic I have always strived to avoid.

It is a pity in many ways because the silver box does have obvious strengths in terms of conveying the sense of the hall, holographic imaging, excellent percussion, texture detail, etc. Put it this way, I can see why the silver range would be very popular for jazz, rock and pop and possibly even light classics and particularly vocals. But it just does not work well for me with violins and they are integral to the type of music I listen to. Maybe if I was using single ended triode type amplification it would mesh consistently well, as it often appears to with excellently-recorded high resolution digital and most well-recorded pure analogue stuff.

The bottom line, however, is that were I to use the silver box, I would literally be swapping it in and out all the time as some sort of temporary tuning device, as opposed to what I really wanted and that was a something to basically set and forget. I could actually see these things coming in handy for professional remastering though - you can significantly shift the character of the source material you are working with to offset it's weaknesses and compliment it's strengths. But in real world hifi where I own only a relatively small number of technically really great recordings (as opposed to mostly good ones), I have to pick something that never does anything badly, as opposed to something that might work brilliantly in some situations and relatively poorly in others. So for me, inoffensive and polite all the time are still the overriding factors I look for in musical reproduction, even if I do like listening to Mahler.

PS: Matching the copper box with the silver cables might have been an interesting exercise given my unexpected listening session results, but then again, being constrained by budget, the entry level silvers are about $800 for two. At least the cables I am currently using are the best pure copper ones that Entreq Australia import, so I sort of feel "safe" in that respect (in the sense that I cannot go any further up the copper food chain so to speak).
 
FF, it's exactly the right thing to make a choice and stick w/it, even if somewhat of a minor compromise.
In my case, w/pwr amp -ve spkr terminal grounding, I ended up a polarised outcome. On the good side, increased s'stage, more air. On the down, just a sort of cloying warmth, lessened dynamics.
In the end I concluded that the blunting of dynamics was too big a price to pay, and turned the option down.
But I may have had a different result using Atlantis leads in place of Apollos, or trying same trial but w.Poseidon box/Apollos or Atlantis'. Another time.
A little like my a'b 2 yrs ago of S. Tellus to same w/Atlantis add-on box - just too many doubts.
 
FF, it's exactly the right thing to make a choice and stick w/it, even if somewhat of a minor compromise.

The frustrating thing though is the compromise is - I believe - more than anything else due to the 16 bit formats I have been listening to. I'm pretty certain it isn't really fundamentally an equipment issue, nor is it an Entreq issue. As I said earlier, one of the first experiments I did was listen to the CD layer of a Soundmirror re-mastered RCA Living Stereo and it really did not sound particularly enticing at all compared to having no box at all! But I actually suspect that what I was hearing was actually more accurate than before. I think the Silver box is such a step up from the copper box (as anyone who has tried them both will surely attest) that it is quite simply "too good" and it is showing up the relative nastiness of the 16 bit, 44.1 KHz standard despite my very best efforts. And yes, I'll admit that it is probably a bit too good for all my gear too. Nevertheless, my opinion (as both a violinist and audiophile) is that 16 / 44.1 cannot manage violin sound properly. 24 / 96 can, as can good analogue of course. Even 24 / 44.1 makes a pretty reasonable stab at violin sound compared to 16 / 44.1 and is still a lot better than, say, 16 / 48 KHz, for instance (ask BIS, not just me as they have released quite a lot of 24 bit material at 44.1 Khz).

What I have noticed with further experimentation on the audio workstation tonight is that if I create a mix using the Silver box, then I really need to use a very slightly shallower filter to get a similar result to that of the copper box. By shallower I am only talking about one half of one percent, but it is easily noticeable, at least to me. I guess there is some logic behind this as well - the silver box is possibly creating a higher level of definition or resolution and therefore I don't need to be as aggressive with my low pass filtering.

The bottom line is that if the CD standard had been 20 bit, 48 KHz right from the very beginning, I don't think I'd be noticing the "problems" that I am. As I said earlier, the Silver box seems to do it's very best work with straight up analogue or 24 / 96 material. It's not in it's element with anything below that sort of standard.

I think if there is one thing I would suggest to people (apart from the obvious experimentation) is to muck around with filter settings on the digital side of things (if possible) when trying out the Entreq stuff. It makes sense to me that if these boxes are getting right down to the nitty gritty of the source material, then the audibility of filters will become more apparent (for better or worse).

I may end up keeping the silver box as a handy addition in any case because I feel there will always be some use for it - but certainly not for listening to CD material at this point in time unfortunately. I would really love to hear this Entreq stuff with my dream system (which would consist of dCS source components). Also, down the track I have aspirations of buying a Quad headphone amplifier and that sort of gear might really mesh well with a silver Entreq.

By they way, one thing I forget to mention right at the beginning - when I test any equipment, I deliberately do not use great recordings. I cannot see the point. A great recording sounds great on anything. It isn't a test at all. I always use what I call "make or break" recordings. These are recordings that will sound variously good to extremely good on really well sorted equipment but will sound absolutely awful on other setups. If I'd just tested all this stuff with all my really good recordings, everything would have sounded great regardless and I wouldn't have been able to make any critical observations.
 
Reading into all the constructive posts, even bigger boxes does not mean it's a sure hit over the smaller boxes. I have not really tried the copper minmus, LL21's comments mirror my trials, 2 silver minimus or even the silver tellus did was not superior to 1 silver minimus with a better cable. I have been trying to say, the connecting cables made a much much bigger difference than adding additional boxes to the extent that the cost was higher than a small box with a good cable and still performed way better.

Adding another s. minimus gave further improvements in staging, detail, hall ambience, with a big "but" started to thin out certain music which stared losing texture and tonal colour. I neve got around in testing a copper minimus, for a lesser effect which might have worked for me. Like many crystal based / quantum tweaks, they do have a kind of similar effect in adding clarity, definition and tightness but again affecting different range of the music spectrum and one can easily being over enthusiastic adding which leads to this similar thinning effect.

I have now decided to skip trying an additional copper minimus and supplemented other tweaks to further enhance what the s. minimus adds to the sound.

It is the small changes that mean the most to me, sometimes, too many or too powerful the effect can actually be counterproductive.
 
FF, Barry, Spirit,

Yes, thank you everyone for the continuing, detailed, civil discussion. I appreciate all aspects, especially that of building a database of shared knowledge. This is great and as I mentioned previously, your experiments and patience are rewarded and my own experimentation is consistent with many of your conclusions and results.

John
 
I'm now a couple of days into my Minimus Copper versus Minimus Silver comparison (Eartha Konstantin throughout)

...the difference between the Minimus Copper and Minimus Silver a profound one ... If any of you are old-school violinists (or old school at heart), the differences between the Copper and Silver are exactly like the differences between a Pirastro Eudoxa violin string (Minimus Copper) and a Pirastro Olive violin string (Minimus Silver).

... I tested both the Copper and Silver on my audio workstation, I made a recording from a 24 bit source and compared the two outputs (Copper and Silver) to that original source. The Silver was closer to the original source than the Copper. And the differences in the character of the output files were the same as what I have described earlier.

...On the workstation it was different because there I always want my "output" to match the input as closely as possible, so Silver is best there - it is "truer" to the source than the Copper is...

I have very much enjoyed this entire section the thread thru today's recent posts. A big fan of Entreq myself...just curious...when you say you compared output of the 24bit file from the 2 - are you listening, or measuring the output?

Trust me - i am the last guy to try to talk about measuring vs listening...i am just asking because if you did measure, i was curious as to what the measurements showed. If not, i know in our own system here, we definitely heard differences in grounding and cables (not only blind test but even months later when one of the cables came undone...unknown to everyone!)
 
I have very much enjoyed this entire section the thread thru today's recent posts. A big fan of Entreq myself...just curious...when you say you compared output of the 24bit file from the 2 - are you listening, or measuring the output?

No, just comparative listening. Any technical analysis I can do is limited to the functions built into my DAW software and that precludes the sort of measurements you (and I) would actually be interested in. That said, I always remain intrigued how two files that hardly measure any differently can actually sound so different, so these days I'm not so much of a fan of measurement as I am critical comparative listening.
 
I(not only blind test but even months later when one of the cables came undone...unknown to everyone!)

I had this happen to me last night! Obviously I'd been doing a fair amount of box swapping and I hadn't wanted to over-tighten the wooden knobs on the back of the boxes. So I went to listen to a CD tonight and couldn't understand what was wrong. I thought something serious had happened to my electricity supply like there was a significant under-voltage event or similar. I persisted listening but the sound was relatively "papery" and unfocused. Pretty disappointed, I went to switch everything off thinking I had just overdone the listening and my ears and brain were too tired. Then as I went to turn my Gigawatt power strip off at the power point I saw the grounding cable to my Musical Fidelity amplifier had gracefully dropped off the Minimus copper terminal and was sitting on the floor. I couldn't have been happier! Not only a forced double blind test but there is no better way to hear how much difference this stuff makes! Of course, I was a bit more ambitious with the knob tightening this time around.

Actually come to think of it, I wonder if it might be better if these cables had loop ends rather than spades.
 

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