Forget it Jake, it's Audiophile

Karen Sumner

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We do see things differently... and that's okay!

I don't malign synthesists or synthetic sound - one's basis of preference is not judged - it just is whatever one chooses ... or is led to, if one is the type to be led. If 'synthetic' suggests man-made, then it's all synthetic, including our notion of reality.

My notion of synthesist is one who puts it (his system and its sound) together for himself without using live acoustic music as the 'form' that guides himself. He may draw from it but is not bound to live music as a map for reproduction. A synthesist may want to enhance what he hears in the live venue - I hear folks who proudly claim their stereo sounds better than what they hear live and have no need to attend concerts. Two different approaches. I find audiophiles fall into one camp or the other.
I am not sure it boils down to the same question - what assemblage of a system reproduces rock music in a way that is closer or farther from what you hear live? I am not sure that the term "natural sound" should be applied to "electronic sound". In my experience with music that is almost purely in the "electronic" category, unless the recording is actually made live (which is rare these days), producers and mastering engineers have as much or more to do with what we hear on these recordings as the musicians do, and they rightfully take pride in that artistic contribution. Conversely recording and mastering engineers who work primarily with music that calls for acoustic instrumentation, more often make every decision within their artistic control with the intent to at least capture as much as possible what they consider to be the natural sound of that performance in its acoustic space. I prefer recorded electronic music rather than attending live electronic concerts because these recordings mostly address the challenges of trying to recreate the electronic listening experience within the physical limits of a home listening space. A live electronic performance typically has wall-to-wall towers of sound reinforcement and overzealous mixing engineers who are trying to help the musicians get their message across to a loud, probably drunk and/or stoned, audience. Natural sound has a live reference. In the case of playing electronic music in a home system, there is really no reference to a live event unless one wants to use sound reinforcement gear at home to listen to recordings of live electronic performances. Those who are seeking electronic sound reproduction in a home hi fi system and have little experience (or desire) to learn about the sound of acoustic instruments typically have very different objectives than people who are primarily interested in listening to live acoustic music.

We all have musical preferences based upon our experiences with music. Regardless of musical tastes, however, a system that is capable of reproducing the fundamental elements of musical sound (tonal balance, dynamics, space/ambience), is capable of providing an engaging music listening experience.

I think part of the difficulty with this discussion is that the specific descriptors that flesh out one’s understanding of these fundamental aspects of musical sound are different for electronic music compared to acoustic music. I believe contemporary hi fi language is in part an outgrowth of trying to “work” around these by describing the sound of equipment rather than the sound of music. As a result, hi fi language doesn’t really speak to either type of instrumentation well, but acoustic instrumentation suffers the most from this approach because hi fi terms and the effects that they represent actually interfere with a system’s ability to reveal live acoustic music characteristics to the extent that it helps us revisit the emotions and thoughts we have had listening to actual performances.

DDK, Peter A, Tima and others have come up with some beautifully expressive descriptive words for describing acoustic music. Because we have all been preaching to the converted in this thread and others, we haven’t yet seen a list of descriptors for electronic music. Perhaps that could be the subject of another thread.
 

tima

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I am not sure that the term "natural sound" should be applied to "electronic sound". In my experience with music that is almost purely in the "electronic" category, unless the recording is actually made live (which is rare these days), producers and mastering engineers have as much or more to do with what we hear on these recordings as the musicians do, and they rightfully take pride in that artistic contribution.

Karen, you raise a number of interesting issues and questions, some of which may deserve their own thread. More questions than answers.

I'll start with one of those that immediately comes to mind.

Can or should an audio system be genre neutral? I believe components are genre neutral however certain components come with limits on the type of music they reproduce well, particularly speakers or speaker/amplifier pairings. In terms of systems the case is essentially the same. Granted the obvious that rational people will orient their system selections in a way that favors their music selections.

So if I have a system oriented to natural sound - one grounded on live acoustic music as its basis of preference - why wouldn't that system be equally adequate to reproduce electronic based music?.

If my system can do Shostakovich well is there any reason it can't do Pink Floyd?
Careful with that axe Staleen.

Yes, there all sorts of narrow genre particulars that create exceptions, but let's bypass those for now.

More interesting is the question: what about the other way around? If I have a system oriented to electronic based music, say electronica or country swing or anyone of the pop genres, would that system be equally capable of reproducing natural sounding acoustic music, say a string quartet? There the answer, imo, is not obvious.

Why?

Who really knows how Valentina is supposed to sound? But what are we trying to judge - do we need to or just enjoy it however we hear it?


1963 - 50 times around the world, All alone this Russian girl.
The World of Tommorrow, Mute Records - CDSTUMM162
(CD sounds far better)

Is there a reference for the sound of a Moog synthesizer (no computer) or an Eigenharp or an electric drum kit? No, they are their own reference. Do we need to hear electronic instruments live to know what they sound like? If we hear a Dolly Parton tape after George Massenburg has had his hands on it, will we know how the natural un-produced Dolly sounds?

I'm not making it because I haven't worked this through, but is there an argument that says there needs to be some real world grounding in the description of any sound for us to relate to that description?

Now of course there are plenty of WBF members who tell us: who cares as long as I enjoy myself and receive whatever emotive emollients the music lathers over me. And that's just fine.

I think part of the difficulty with this discussion is that the specific descriptors that flesh out one’s understanding of these fundamental aspects of musical sound are different for electronic music compared to acoustic music.

Per Karen's statement above: What are some of the descriptors that flesh out the sound of electronic music sound that are different from those for acoustic music? Different adjectives? I don't know. Is therea tendency to over-emphasize psycho acoustic characteristics?

I believe contemporary hi fi language is in part an outgrowth of trying to “work” around these by describing the sound of equipment rather than the sound of music.

I want to think about it more, but for now, that's brilliant. Describing sound is difficult and our visually oriented language is poorly suited, imo, to doing that. We can get a lot of "sounds like" or lapses into how equipment functions.

For example I read a discussion (here) about describing bass that talked about "cone excursion impact" and "panel style waves of slam". I kinda thought 'huh?'. Does that describe sound? It struck me as avoiding the description of sound. It is kind of a description of equipment. Give me an example from music and then describe the sound differences between two components. On the other hand many people come here to learn through words how component X sounds. For me specific examples from music are really really helpful.

I would like to hear a deeper dive into these questions and topics from others.
 
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Atmasphere

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If my system can do Shostakovich well is there any reason it can't do Pink Floyd?
I don't know of any designer including myself that honestly knows a way to design audio equipment to favor a certain musical genre. All forms of music will use the entire musical spectrum sooner or later. If you could design a means of favoring a certain genre you'd be a millionaire overnight!

I do find though that I can hear things about the system better if I'm using an acoustic recording. Even different vintage of Minimoogs sound different- mine is an earlier one with the 'richer' sound of the oscillators, which also drift more...
 

Karen Sumner

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I don't know of any designer including myself that honestly knows a way to design audio equipment to favor a certain musical genre. All forms of music will use the entire musical spectrum sooner or later. If you could design a means of favoring a certain genre you'd be a millionaire overnight!

I do find though that I can hear things about the system better if I'm using an acoustic recording. Even different vintage of Minimoogs sound different- mine is an earlier one with the 'richer' sound of the oscillators, which also drift more...
I don't have much time to weigh in on this, but I didn't mean to imply that there should be different systems or actual standards for different genres of music.

I said: "We all have musical preferences based upon our experiences with music. Regardless of musical tastes, however, a system that is capable of reproducing the fundamental elements of musical sound (tonal balance, dynamics, space/ambience), is capable of providing an engaging music listening experience."

I should have been more specific. It would have been clearer if I had said: Under the general umbrella of all genres of music, the fundamental elements of musical sound should apply. In other words, a system that embodies the listening criteria of revealing musically correct tonal balance with well differentiated individual instrumental timbres, all gradations of dynamic range, and the space (ambience) of the performance venue should be able to play all genres of music.

I did not mean to imply I was referring to genres when I mentioned type, but to instrumentation types; i.e., acoustic, electronic, and (perhaps) acoustic/electronic mixes. Each instrumentation type represents more than one genre. For example, acoustic instrumentation might include chamber music, orchestral music, opera, folk music, classic jazz, etc.

The adjectives one might use to describe the sound of an acoustic, electronic, or acoustic/electronic music selection for the purposes of describing component performance could be commonly used words and probably should largely be left up to the person describing the sound of the system or component if that person has a reasonable amount of experience with actually listening to the type of instrumentation used in the selection(s).

I will have to revisit this when I have a bit more time. I apologize for the confusion.
 
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tima

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I don't know of any designer including myself that honestly knows a way to design audio equipment to favor a certain musical genre. All forms of music will use the entire musical spectrum sooner or later. If you could design a means of favoring a certain genre you'd be a millionaire overnight!

Yes, I agree, as noted, components are genre neutral. Whether we can syllogize from all components are genre neutral to all systems are genre neutral, I'm less certain. I can imagine the system of someone who likes Bach organ toccatas may be quite different from someone who prefers girl with guitar music. Presumably the differences in component selection are intentional.

Under the general umbrella of all genres of music, the fundamental elements of musical sound should apply.

I gather that Karen's point is the characteristics by which we assess whatever genre are essentially the same. My curiosity is behind my speculation that "there needs to be some real world grounding in the description of any sound for us to relate to that description." Is that simply a bias on my part?

If, for example, we talk about pitch, timbre and harmonics don't we rely on what we experience and know from the acoustic world when describing electronic music? I'm not sure but i'm leaning in that direction. Granted the characteristics of acoustic music were pretty much well codified before there was any electronic music. And I presume the rules of human hearing are genre independent - at least within the Western culture.

Nonetheless when assessing the capacity of a system to replicate reality in reproduction do the descriptors we use for a system oriented to live acoustic music differ from those describing a system without a reference, that is one grounded in an individual's personal design? (Can the synthesist ever be wrong in their assessment - fickle, yes but wrong?) I suppose in the latter case the notion of replicating reality makes no sense or at least is obscure. Consider music with a 'heightened ambience' - the representation of a context not obtained acoustically in the real world. How is a system's ability to reproduce such effects assessable?

Perhaps it is a simple as saying those who prefer a naturally sounding system bear the burden of reality whereas others do not.
 
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andromedaaudio

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Here is the response of an average 2 - way speaker on the market , the Harbeth 30
At 50 hz you are already 20 db down .
This is a speaker that will certainly favour midrange orientated music .
Simply because its not capable to reproduce freq below that ( audibly .)
An audiophile who likes girl guitar vocals jazz etc might think , hey this is a great speaker why spend more .
A person who likes piano / orchestra / house music might say this is a crap/ limited speaker and i m never gonna buy it


1644922684336.png
 
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andromedaaudio

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Now here is an example of a certain horn loudspeaker , this transducer then begs the question what music will sound good through it .
I think we can all conclude probably hardly any music type.
I always like to take a horn as an example , because horn lovers are always a good sport , lol .



This transducer will certainly not favour music which has bass notes in it ,simply because you aint gonna hear it.
The owner probably has about 5 CD s which are his best CD s and which are recorded in such a way that they have exactly the same distortion pattern as the horn but then in mirror image.
Cancelling out the distortion somewhat.
This transducer will also sound rather " hot " on top making " hot" ( high freq. elevated ) recordings unbearable to listen to


1644928644935.png


 
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microstrip

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I don't know of any designer including myself that honestly knows a way to design audio equipment to favor a certain musical genre. (...)

IMHO, in general, electronics components operated in their normal range do not typically favor certain musical genres, systems do it.

Speaker bandwidth and dynamic range, however, can put limits in the type of music we can play at best in a system.
 
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Atmasphere

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IMHO, in general, electronics components operated in their normal range do not typically favor certain musical genres, systems do it.

Speaker bandwidth and dynamic range, however, can put limits in the type of music we can play at best in a system.
Speakers can certainly limit the overall volume and how bass is played. But that in itself has little influence on what genres are favored! I've yet to encounter a system that favored a certain genre. There's just no way to do it.
 
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Argonaut

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Here is the response of an average 2 - way speaker on the market , the Harbeth 30
At 50 hz you are already 20 db down .
This is a speaker that will certainly favour midrange orientated music .
Simply because its not capable to reproduce freq below that ( audibly .)
An audiophile who likes girl guitar vocals jazz etc might think , hey this is a great speaker why spend more .
A person who likes piano / orchestra / house music might say this is a crap/ limited speaker and i m never gonna buy it


View attachment 89306

Might you post or post a link too , any professional review , customer review or feedback of your own manufactured transducers ?
 

andromedaaudio

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Might you post or post a link too , any professional review , customer review or feedback of your own manufactured transducers ?
Left at the bottom you can see who has done the review / measurement .
Its a harbeth design , its just a quick example i took of the net .
A graph like this counts for many small 2 way designs whether bookshelf or Floorstander .

Atmasphere i mostly agree with you but not this time .
Suppose somebody is a organ lover , would he be happy with a speaker which cant reproduce the big /long pipes ??
 

Atmasphere

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Atmasphere i mostly agree with you but not this time .
Suppose somebody is a organ lover , would he be happy with a speaker which cant reproduce the big /long pipes ??
Probably not. But neither would someone who likes Massive Attack. The idea that equipment or a system can favor a musical genre over another is one of the bigger myths in audio- its quite prevalent. I suspect it leads to a lot of people flushing dollars down the loo. But it is a myth.
 
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microstrip

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Left at the bottom you can see who has done the review / measurement . (...)

And you expect an informed consumer to trust in an internet sourced measurement, without giving any details on where, whom and how the measurements were taken?

IMHO measurements can be valuable, but they must be taken in context and extensively discussed with care. Using them careless or casually only spreads distrust.
 

Argonaut

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Left at the bottom you can see who has done the review / measurement .
Its a harbeth design , its just a quick example i took of the net .
A graph like this counts for many small 2 way designs whether bookshelf or Floorstander .

Atmasphere i mostly agree with you but not this time .
Suppose somebody is a organ lover , would he be happy with a speaker which cant reproduce the big /long pipes ??
I was more interested in any independent feedback or information regarding your own brand speakers ? A search doesn’t reveal much other than your own commentary.
 
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andromedaaudio

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I was more interested in any independent feedback or information regarding your own brand speakers ? A search doesn’t reveal much other than your own

I have never offered my speakers up for review for a dutch magazine or something like that.
I never advertized/ nothing..

Ron wrote a mono and stereo andromeda design visit report ,you can google it .
With the comment that my tapemachines werent revised properly yet during that visit.
And the acoustic space was a bit problematic in my old space
Plus i have much better tapes now.
 
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Karen Sumner

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Yes, I agree, as noted, components are genre neutral. Whether we can syllogize from all components are genre neutral to all systems are genre neutral, I'm less certain. I can imagine the system of someone who likes Bach organ toccatas may be quite different from someone who prefers girl with guitar music. Presumably the differences in component selection are intentional.
I think that since both of these listeners are focusing on acoustic music, either system should play organ toccatas or female guitar vocals with guitar accompaniment reasonably well. The system that has the greatest dynamic range capability and frequency response would probably provide a more compelling listening experience for organ toccatas which would be more demanding to reproduce than a female vocal with acoustic guitar accompaniment. In short, I do not think that systems should be genre specific.

Nonetheless when assessing the capacity of a system to replicate reality in reproduction do the descriptors we use for a system oriented to live acoustic music differ from those describing a system without a reference, that is one grounded in an individual's personal design? (Can the synthesist ever be wrong in their assessment - fickle, yes but wrong?) I suppose in the latter case the notion of replicating reality makes no sense or at least is obscure. Consider music with a 'heightened ambience' - the representation of a context not obtained acoustically in the real world. How is a system's ability to reproduce such effects assessable?

Perhaps it is a simple as saying those who prefer a naturally sounding system bear the burden of reality whereas others do not.
I think you are right about the burden of reality. There are quite a number of high-end audio hobbyists and professionals who do not have or want to reference their listening to live acoustic music, but that doesn’t mean that the industry should get a pass on that burden. Many enthusiasts want to judge the sound of a system based upon the sounds they like to hear while they are listening to their favorite (mostly studio-produced electronic) recordings. People are certainly free to do whatever they want with the stuff they own, but at the end of the day, this approach is too limiting for those of us who want a lot more than to play records we like. We want to enjoy a wide range of genres including full scale orchestral music which is the most demanding type of music to reproduce. Listeners who have a lot of experience with live orchestral music have different expectations when it comes to a home audio system. These listeners want to go beyond the basics of tonal balance, dynamic range, and the sense of a performance space and be massaged into a deeper connection with the music they love through a balanced expression of harmonic and timbral low-level details that don’t exist with most electronic music.

Studio produced electronic music compared to recordings of large orchestral works typically have more limited dynamic range and frequency response. Consequently, it would be sheer luck if a system that was set up by someone who primarily listened to studio recordings could also reproduce acoustic music well. The “electronic-music” based system is not a good universal transducer of all types of music and limits the ability of the owners to grow their music appreciation for other musical genres. A system and listening environment that has been set up to get the most out of large-scale orchestral works reproduces electronic studio music and all other types of music well. The unfortunate thing is that acoustic and studio electronic music, although false equivalents in terms of what they demand to be able to reproduce them well, are currently in the same buckets in the world of high-end audio. This is not to say that orchestral music is superior compared to studio electronic music because what is superior to a person necessarily depends upon what they enjoy.

Kinch said on January 27, 2022 in post #24 as a reply to my essay entitled “Music Is Fundamental to Almost Everyone:

Another issue surrounding tonal density and the relation of fundamentals to harmonics in stringed instruments is: the overtones created by: a) the body of the instrument; and b) the other strings. When a strings teacher tells you to "make it ring" they are referring to the sweet spot near the bridge wherein the note played maximally resonates with the sympathetic overtones of the other strings. This is different from the overtone signature of the body, which depends on wood type, layers of lacquer, luthier, etc . This adds a layer of complexity and nuance to hifi. The tonal signature of a fundamental to its harmonics could be relatively easy for hifi to model. Even a particular instrument can likely be modeled given a demo on a Guaneri, or a well recorded template of one. But the overtones inherent to the strings themselves, which imparts the holy grail of "make it ring", needs to be correctly captured by hifi to suspend disbelief.

Hearing low-level details such as the timbral characteristics of a violin being played in an acoustic venue probably doesn’t enter into the consideration of someone who does not have an intimate association with acoustic instruments played live in a natural acoustic space; however, the capacity to deliver this level of information in no way harms or stands in the way of someone preferring electronic music from fully enjoying it.

Perhaps I have unrealistic expectations. I think a good high-end audio system should be aspirational and encourage music exploration. A good system needs to play all types of music to achieve its purpose and value for most people. I think all manufacturers, dealers, and others who make component and system recommendations should have live acoustic music as their primary reference while giving a respectful nod to electronic music. Otherwise, the hobby is all about acquisition, hi fi, and gear above music and “I like what I like.” If that reflects the current evolution of high-end audio, then no one needs to write and talk about it endlessly on forums and in the review press.

Krinch said in post #16 as a reply to “Music Is Fundamental to Almost Everyone“:

I love your discussion of "appropriate tonal density" defined by the relative strength of the fundamental to its harmonics. And I agree that there is a correct such proportion. The secret sauce in hi fi appears to rely in large part on how manufacturers perceive this proportion and to what extent if any they seek to manipulate it. Certainly, the complexity skyrockets with multiple simultaneous signals. The correct proportion of fundamental frequency to harmonics for a given instrument seems obvious to a trained musician, but less so to anyone else, including to non-trained listeners and electrical engineers. Which is why I am leery of any hi fi made by an EE alone without formal musical training. The ideal would be an EE who is also a musician - rare but possible in the quivers of hi fi manufacturers.”

There have been more than a few pieces of widely acclaimed hi fi gear that have passed over my threshold where it is obvious that the people responsible for design do not have music training and or significant experience listening to live acoustic music. Yes, Tima, I believe the burden is on those who have live music training or experience to lead the way in high end audio.

Mike Lavigne said in post #35 as a reply to “Music Is Fundamental to Almost Everyone:”

all my listening. music and non music. format comparing over 30 years. live music listening. gear comparing. lots of focused listening in a mature music reproduction system. i have recordings where i have what i view as the source work parts. i try to get native versions of recordings when possible. it's helpful to do that and fits into an overall viewpoint of what is going on.

where is the line where your reference is legit? and it's not legit? that line does not exist in my viewpoint. there are simply degrees of your experiences. all of them.

how others view your path is another matter. do you care about that?

if i was an intense professional musician, or concert goer with lots of experience, i might have a different reference, but my choices for system building would be no more or less legit. i guess we listen to the various systems and try to connect the dots where we find our own truth.


It‘s Mike Lavigne’s right to trust that members of our industry are doing their jobs to deliver components that come as close as possible to the sound of live acoustic music because such systems naturally accommodate all other types of music well. He is then free to fully enjoy the music he loves, regardless of type or genre. In such a world, nothing is lost or overlooked by focusing on the recordings one likes.

If our industry is to grow and evolve, we need real experts rather than operating under the false premise that we are all experts.
 
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andromedaaudio

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If our industry is to grow and evolve, we need real experts rather than operating under the false premise that we are all experts.
Evolve where to ??

Afaik audiophilia consists merely of sitting down/ relax and listen to the real experts (the musicians )
There is not much more to it
 

Atmasphere

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Studio produced electronic music compared to recordings of large orchestral works has more limited dynamic range and frequency response. Consequently, it would be sheer luck if a system that was set up by someone who primarily listened to studio recordings could also reproduce acoustic music well. The “electronic-music” based system is not a good universal transducer of all types of music and limits the ability of the owners to grow their music appreciation for other musical genres.
The first statement is false. I've encountered electronic recordings (in the example I'm thinking of is considered 'electronic ambient') that have every bit the dynamic range and frequency extremes that you hear in large orchestral works. Black Sabbath's Paranoid LP (on the white and black Vertigo label) can bring most stereo systems to their knees in a heartbeat. So its not luck. There are quite a lot of 'electronic' recordings out there (keeping in mind that all recordings made after the war are 'electronic' that combine amplified and natural sounds. Some of these latter recordings offer a gateway into orchestral recordings. There are 'orchestral'Jethro Tull, Genesis LPs, or Gregory Alan Isakov wiht the Colorado Symphony...

I was trained classically and so it was a challenge to learn how to play in a rock band. Mozart was a punk in his day; IMO one really have to be careful about generalizations regarding music. I agree wholeheartedly that music is part of the human condition; no matter how far back in time archeologists have found evidence of human habitation, they find also with it signs of music. Its part of who we are.
 

Karen Sumner

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The first statement is false. I've encountered electronic recordings (in the example I'm thinking of is considered 'electronic ambient') that have every bit the dynamic range and frequency extremes that you hear in large orchestral works. Black Sabbath's Paranoid LP (on the white and black Vertigo label) can bring most stereo systems to their knees in a heartbeat. So its not luck. There are quite a lot of 'electronic' recordings out there (keeping in mind that all recordings made after the war are 'electronic' that combine amplified and natural sounds. Some of these latter recordings offer a gateway into orchestral recordings. There are 'orchestral'Jethro Tull, Genesis LPs, or Gregory Alan Isakov wiht the Colorado Symphony...

I was trained classically and so it was a challenge to learn how to play in a rock band. Mozart was a punk in his day; IMO one really have to be careful about generalizations regarding music. I agree wholeheartedly that music is part of the human condition; no matter how far back in time archeologists have found evidence of human habitation, they find also with it signs of music. Its part of who we are.
I should have said "many" or most electronic recordings. I will check out the Black Sabbath Paranoid recording. I agree that the orchestral acoustic/electonic mixes to which you refer are like a gateway to listening to more orchestral recordings, but if the system isn't up to the task of revealing all the things that orchestral listeners want to hear, it is less likely that electronica listeners will get beyond the gateway of Genesis. The orchestral tracks on these types of recordings are mostly used as a background, and the tracks have been compressed to make the recordings sound good on typical systems; i.e., not a SOTA system.

Thanks for including "The Stable Song" which is a very nice folk/country selection with a banjo and vocal with an orchestral accompaniment. It seems that it is produced in a studio to combine the tracks. Perhaps we should talk some more about this type of music compilation.

You are obviously an audio expert with your experience as a musician. Thank you for your input.
 
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