I agree every self respecting audiop(h)ile would/ should state that .everyone says its sound is natural.
Unless he belongs to a " fringe" minority off course
I agree every self respecting audiop(h)ile would/ should state that .everyone says its sound is natural.
I'm hesitant to engage with you because you have turned cheeky and negative, and seemingly pointless to no end. I will post only this one response.
Of course each person hears on their own, each person is unique and each person's gauge of what they hear is their's alone. Your responses here appear to offer that information as some sort of retort to what @PeterA is saying but it is obvious they are not.
What is not unique or individually centered is the orchestra on stage before us. We share the same object of our hearing. The product of that experience repeated multiple times is what each of us learns from listening to live acoustic music. Whether my product is different from yours is irrelevant, although we are not so physiologically different that there wil be radical divergence. The naturalist brings what he learns to the creation and assessment of his system of reproduction.
Side note: Using the term 'real music' suggests there is 'unreal music' or artificial music. Speaking like that introduces confusion. The terminology 'live acoustic music' is clear and does not introduce confusion - when live musicians perform in front of a live audience using acoustic musical instruments, the audience experiences live acoustic music. Listening to a stereo is not experiencing 'artificial music' it is listening to music reproduced by a stereo.
i'm sure what you meant to say was that Brian does not seem to understandBrian, it does not seem to me that you understand what is meant by Natural Sound. I am also interested in how you define Natural Sound and low fidelity, and in the system examples on which you base this comment.
i'm sure what you meant to say was that Brian does not seem to understandwhat is meantwhat you mean by Natural Sound. there is no one definition of natural sound. that's the only thing we can agree on, that we don't all agree.
well, i have no problem with how you, or David, or anyone uses the term natural sound. i view it as an individual viewpoint on how musical presentation should sound. where i differ is the degrees of singular broad interpretation.No. I wrote what I meant to write. My understanding of the term is based on what other people who use the term I’ve taught me. Vladimir Lamm used the term as did others. So I actually think of it as a type of sound and a certain approach to the hobby.
Mike, I understand your comment, but it is hard to know what Brian thanks. David asked Brian to define what he meant and then I followed up with the same request, but Brian has not responded.
It’s possible that people have different definitions of what the term natural means. But I would find that rather surprising.
How would you refer to the sound of live acoustic instruments in a concert hall other than them sounding natural? Personally, I don’t think the word “absolute” works because different violins sound different from each other and “absolute” implies one sound. The term Natural covers all of the violins on stage and elsewhere.
What would you suggest is a better way to describe it Mike?
well, i have no problem with how you, or David, or anyone uses the term natural sound. i view it as an individual viewpoint on how musical presentation should sound. where i differ is the degrees of singular broad interpretation.
do i think SET's and vintage horns with generic cables have any higher claim on natural sound than my solid state and cones? of course not!!! yet many here would have me buy into that narrative. yet i absolutely respect where you are coming from and have zero problem with it. just don't expect me to buy into it more than my own perspective.
i respect other's perspectives and don't expect them to change to mine, or think mine is the true viewpoint. it's just my viewpoint.
why would i know less about what natural means than anyone else?
well, i have no problem with how you, or David, or anyone uses the term natural sound. i view it as an individual viewpoint on how musical presentation should sound. where i differ is the degrees of singular broad interpretation.
do i think SET's and vintage horns with generic cables have any higher claim on natural sound than my solid state and cones? of course not!!! yet many here would have me buy into that narrative. yet i absolutely respect where you are coming from and have zero problem with it. just don't expect me to buy into it more than my own perspective.
i respect other's perspectives and don't expect them to change to mine, or think mine is the true viewpoint. it's just my viewpoint.
why would i know less about what natural means than anyone else?
No. I wrote what I meant to write. My understanding of the term is based on what other people who use the term I’ve taught me. Vladimir Lamm used the term as did others. So I actually think of it as a type of sound and a certain approach to the hobby. (...)
i've listened with Joel Durand a good deal, and i recognize i will never understand music like he does. it's his profession. he teaches music composition at the university level and composes. and i've bought 6 or 7 tone arms from him. so i trust his musical viewpoints. his credentials might equal or exceed anyone on WBF.‘it’s an interesting point Mike whether someone knows less about naturalness?
if we go to a concert and we discuss at the end, and you say ( not having a go at you Mike just a thought experiment) well that was wonderful
and I say to you “really “ but the singer sung flat, the violin was out of pitch and the drums came in late and there was some weird reverb in the concert hall , are our abilities equal ?
When I see 'audiophile' associated with recordings, I'm suspicious and won't buy 'til I hear it. Usually the sound is excellent/amazing if its an original recording but the performance either ironically hilarious or really forgettable.
Mike as I said this isn’t about you, personally , it about whether everyone’s perspectives are equally valid about naturalnessi've listened with Joel Durand a good deal, and i recognize i will never understand music like he does. it's his profession. he teaches music composition at the university level and composes. and i've bought 6 or 7 tone arms from him. so i trust his musical viewpoints. his credentials might equal or exceed anyone on WBF.
yet i can have my legit opinion about what i think sounds natural, and might even not agree with him about it. he might be able to articulate his views much better than myself, but i can still view things my way. it would make sense that most people would view him as an authority. yet i know what i like (btw, we almost 100% agree as far as i know)..
music is art, to be consumed. and there is no one way to view it. that does not mean i don't respect knowledge and experience. but i reserve the right to determine my own preferences. if i think it sounds natural, who can dispute my feelings?
Joel can certainly judge the performance dramatically better than i can, but as far as what i like, that's up to me.
understand that i have considerable listening experience that i base my confidence on. it's not based on just a whim. yet many would say, i'm listening mostly to reproduced music. and they would have every right to say that. i can pay attention to it or not.
TMore so if you're listening to vintage recordings. I personally love vinyl, but most of it is produced years ago; older recordings can sound wonderful, be very engaging, but they're antiquated in terms of capturing the full spectrum of sound. It's like saying black and white photos are natural compared to color.
In my (probably not so humble) opinion, coining the phrase Natural Sound as a way of suggesting that one has attained something elusive through the use of vintage equipment is full of irony.
I really think it would be more practical to use the term Vintage Sound. I know I, for one, would then have a good idea of what it sounds like.
This remains for me an enduring mystery. Ian is a real musician. He has forgotten 1000 times more than I will ever know about the sounds of acoustic instruments played live and unamplified in the concert hall.
The sounds of music reproduced by certain stereo systems which Ian believes most closely approximate the sounds he hears in the concert hall are different than the sounds of music reproduced by other stereo systems which I (and, I think, David K and Peter A and Kedar and Jeffrey T) believe most closely approximate the sounds I (we) hear in the concert hall.
Ian is the music professional, so I have no problem concluding that I simply must be wrong. But then I think that one does not necessarily have to be a music professional to have an experience-based opinion on the comparison between the live and the reproduced sounds.
Like so much in this hobby there simply is no way to reconcile these disparate perceptions and opinions.
Natural Sound (tm) is again being thrown around like it's the ultimate term for musical nirvana and what any self-respecting audiophile must strive for. It's crazy to me because I would guess that most of the people using this term are Vintage Sound (tm) aficionados. So vintage sound = natural sound?
In my (probably not so humble) opinion, coining the phrase Natural Sound as a way of suggesting that one has attained something elusive through the use of vintage equipment is full of irony.
Sorry, but this is misrepresentative. Ian hasn't heard the same (or rather, same type) of systems, so there is no reason for him and me to agree. Whether we agree or disagree with each other will only be known after he he hears those other systems.