Ron, the answer is simple. IF the company knows that the product is inferior and is simply supplying a demand and at a higher price to maximize profit, then how reputable are they in this pursuit??? Remember, they are NOT disclosing that the product is inferior in any way..instead they are happy to propagate a belief in the consumer that the product in question is superior and therefore justifies the additional cost. That's the way I see it, YMMV.
Fremer says 9" arms are inherently superior?
- Thread starter Fsonicsmith
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Marc, please feel free to start a new thread on that separate topic. I really don’t think it makes sense to raise that broad new topic here given the narrow focus of this thread.
Over time, people will hear the differences, choose to buy the design they prefer, and the market forces will win the day. At least this is the way I would hope it would play out.
I can only repeat my same reply. In a subjective hobby I think it makes no sense to think that people are going to agree unanimously that a particular product is inferior. So if some subset of the consumer population prefers a product for whatever reason I think it becomes logically impossible to conclude that the manufacturer of that product is knowingly producing an inferior product. I really don’t know how else to put it.
Yes, absolutely correct. Meanwhile how many consumers have been 'taken' by the unscrupulous manufacturer who knew they were producing an inferior product? Remember, we are 'supposedly' talking about reputable manufacturers here, or at least that's the impression that I was under, LOL.
Justification for a bad act. IF the manufacturer knows that the product is inferior, why do you believe that they are wrong in that understanding? Or is everything so subjective that even the manufacturer of the product has no understanding of the validity of their own product??? I'm not buying that...
I think we will have to agree to disagree Ron.
You are
Based on all that you've posted, it's clear that you are a dishonest fool.
You make **** up at every turn.
NEVER did I claim that 9" arms are "inherently superior". That's **** you made up.
You posted something about me tapping on turntables (which I do) and then YOU made up crap about why I do so.
Now you are questioning how reputable a company is to offer various length arms? And you go on to hallucinate the motives of the companies, followed by your conclusion that they are "disreputable" because of more **** you've made about the motivation.
Wow. You brought me here and guess what? I'm done!
Based on all that you've posted, it's clear that you are a dishonest fool.
You make **** up at every turn.
NEVER did I claim that 9" arms are "inherently superior". That's **** you made up.
You posted something about me tapping on turntables (which I do) and then YOU made up crap about why I do so.
Now you are questioning how reputable a company is to offer various length arms? And you go on to hallucinate the motives of the companies, followed by your conclusion that they are "disreputable" because of more **** you've made about the motivation.
Wow. You brought me here and guess what? I'm done!
Begs the question...how many manufacturers are actually making inferior sounding products that they know sound worse than their less expensive wares....simply because they 'perceive' a marketplace desire..hmmm???
IMHO none, as I can not remember no one. Can you?
But some times manufacturers have different lines just to please different preferences of their customers, something that can create confusing situations in their marketing. Or their objectives in sound quality move so fast that it is not easy to scale a value in their ranges. I remember that when the SME20 was introduced some people found attracted by the "lighter" sounding new turntable and immediately promoted it, claiming it sounded better than the top much more expensive SME30. I have had the two side by side in my system and for me there was no doubt that the winner was the SME30 by a very wide margin - and no one who listened disagreed.
I agree. But I reject the notion that that is what is going on.
When in this hobby are we ever in unanimous, or even nearly unanimous, agreement about whether “A” sounds better than “B”? Why are you thinking that we would ever develop a nearly unanimous consensus on which sounds “worse”?
Of course if you are postulating that some evil manufacturer is selling a tone arm the deliberately defective design of which renders it impossible to align properly on a turntable then I would agree with you. But I really don’t think that that is the kind of inferior product you are postulating.
Everybody calm down.
Nothing wrong with prefering tubes v.s. SS -
Nothing wrong either with prefering different arm lengths.
It's the manufacturer business what they offer.
But I don't like word-twisters either
Yep
Something about being crossed w Planet Of The Apes.
I guess we’d be arguing about the superiority of gorillas v chimps, 12” v 9” in a nutshell.
Something about being crossed w Planet Of The Apes.
I guess we’d be arguing about the superiority of gorillas v chimps, 12” v 9” in a nutshell.
IMHO none, as I can not remember no one. Can you?
I remember that when the SME20 was introduced some people found attracted by the "lighter" sounding new turntable and immediately promoted it, claiming it sounded better than the top much more expensive SME30. I have had the two side by side in my system and for me there was no doubt that the winner was the SME30 by a very wide margin - and no one who listened disagreed.
Right, Francisco. And even though the armboard on the SME Model 30/12 is reversible to allow one to use the 9" SME V arm, I have never known anyone to do so. I suppose people could put other 9" arms on the larger SME turntable preferring that combination to the SME V-12 arm. Apparently (perhaps you mentioned this), people are buying the SAT arms and putting them on the 30/12 table. It will be interesting to see if they replace those 9" arms with the new SAT 12" arm which should also fit on the larger SME table.
Alastair Aikman when he was alive seemed to have his tables priced pretty proportionate to sound quality. I have never heard the 30/12, but I would believe that with the 12 inch arm and appropriate cartridge it would sound the best of the SME tables.
I have shoe horned a 10 inch arm onto the SME/30, and that is plenty for me.
I have shoe horned a 10 inch arm onto the SME/30, and that is plenty for me.
Fsonicsmith, Folsom, DaveyF: Michael has withdrawn from the forum. Great work, guys! You sure showed him a thing or two! I hope you are proud of yourselves!
Don't lecture me on how unreasonable or impatient you think Michael was, and how magnanimous and fair-minded you all were. I won't be listening.
Don't lecture me on how unreasonable or impatient you think Michael was, and how magnanimous and fair-minded you all were. I won't be listening.
Ron, I think you misunderstand what I wrote. I am NOT suggesting that they are doing that. I wrote that I understand that the two different length arms may sound different from each other, and that someone might prefer one sound, and someone else may prefer the other sound. However, as I just wrote to Francisco, I don't know of anyone using a 9" SME arm on the larger SME turntable, although that too would sound different from the same arm on the smaller SME Model 30 table. Owners of the Model 30/12 all seem to use the 12" SME arm or some arm from another manufacturer.
I think the confusion came about when MF suggested that some manufacturer's told him "off the record" that they only make longer versions of their arms to meet customer demand. This implies that they would not make them if the customers were not asking for them. Therefore, either the manufacturers don't think the longer arms sound better, or they don't think they could sell them because of higher prices. If customers are asking for longer arms, this suggests that some people prefer the sound of the longer arms.
MF wrote that he PREFERS (in his opinion) the shorter arms. From there, people started making all sorts of assumptions about MF's views on the subject. I'm confused at this point. I wish MF had directly compared the 9" and 12" SME arms when he wrote the review of the 312S arm and then reported on the sonic differences, which arm he prefers, and why. That would have gone a long way to clarify his views on the subject. Perhaps he has changed his mind as some of the members are suggesting, which would be perfectly fine. Perhaps he thinks that the 9" SAT arm is better than any other arm of any length. That is fine too. But we can not make sweeping generalizations about what he thinks about arm length today unless he gives us his current thinking on the subject. MF has not stated that he has changed his mind. So we are left wondering.
Fsonicsmith, Folsom, DaveyF: Michael has withdrawn from the forum. Great work, guys! You sure showed him a thing or two! I hope you are proud of yourselves!
Don't lecture me on how unreasonable or impatient you think Michael was, and how magnanimous and fair-minded you all were. I won't be listening.
Ron,
with all due respect, I highly doubt he had any intention of participating in this forum on a regular basis.
I agree, Christian.
But I think we could have been a little more circumspect and posted with a lighter touch in return for the participation of someone of Michael's experience. I, for one, and Steve, for two, and PeterA, for three, would have greatly appreciated and valued having Michael weigh in on something from time to time as the spirit moved him.
But I think we could have been a little more circumspect and posted with a lighter touch in return for the participation of someone of Michael's experience. I, for one, and Steve, for two, and PeterA, for three, would have greatly appreciated and valued having Michael weigh in on something from time to time as the spirit moved him.
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