Getting Good Sound From “Regular” Rooms

[Ampexed]

With a 'normal' room, it's virtually impossible to give a one-size-fits-all solution, and WAF matters a lot. Generally though, the use of horn speakers, which are more directional than conventional speakers, is helpful because there is more direct sound at the listening position than is *generally* the case with non-horns. This means you're hearing relatively more of the speaker and less of the room, so the room matters relatively less.

The exact opposite end of the spectrum are bi-polar or di-polar speakers which maximally excite room reflections - the room must be very good for these speakers to sound their best.

I know horns aren't overly popular for people on this site, and to an extent I agree - personally I hate the sound of most horns and Klipsch horns especially for all the usual reasons people don't like horns. But they can sound just as good as any other speaker, and will usually beat them in terms of dynamics and subjective transient quickness. It just takes a lot of work to get them that way. Avant Garde horns are pretty good.

 

[hopkins]

It has a flush-mounted sound and light system, each light is a 75w full 24/192 streaming system that produces extraordinarily good sound

Did not know that existed. Cool stuff...

 

[ssfas]

With a 'normal' room, it's virtually impossible to give a one-size-fits-all solution, and WAF matters a lot. Generally though, the use of horn speakers, which are more directional than conventional speakers, is helpful because there is more direct sound at the listening position than is *generally* the case with non-horns. This means you're hearing relatively more of the speaker and less of the room, so the room matters relatively less.

The exact opposite end of the spectrum are bi-polar or di-polar speakers which maximally excite room reflections - the room must be very good for these speakers to sound their best.

I know horns aren't overly popular for people on this site, and to an extent I agree - personally I hate the sound of most horns and Klipsch horns especially for all the usual reasons people don't like horns. But they can sound just as good as any other speaker, and will usually beat them in terms of dynamics and subjective transient quickness. It just takes a lot of work to get them that way. Avant Garde horns are pretty good.

It's interesting to try out the stereo when the room is bare, or almost bare, and how it changes as you furnish it. You need to know what bad is before you can know what good is.

Some people do lots of computer-generated room stuff, but I would argue that you never really know until you get there.

Most horn speakers are large and often ugly. The best way to deal with WAF is to get the wife to design the room with you. She effectively chose our speakers. The pointy Wilson Sabrina make them look smaller than they actually are, compared to any speaker in a rectangular box.

 

[Ampexed]

It's interesting to try out the stereo when the room is bare, or almost bare, and how it changes as you furnish it. You need to know what bad is before you can know what good is.

Some people do lots of computer-generated room stuff, but I would argue that you never really know until you get there.

Most horn speakers are large and often ugly. The best way to deal with WAF is to get the wife to design the room with you. She effectively chose our speakers. The pointy Wilson Sabrina make them look smaller than they actually are, compared to any speaker in a rectangular box.

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What you describe with an empty room is one technique I used when I was developing my own dedicated room (20' x 30' with an 11' cathedral ceiling). The mandate was essentially - how good of an "echo chamber" does this room make when clapping my hands as I walk around the room? In other words, a smooth, flutter and slap echo free space which does not accentuate any particular frequency band as the sound smoothly trails off.

That taken care of, it was a simple matter of adding absorption to bring down the reverb time to around 450mSec.

Natively irregular ceiling and wall surfaces are key in my opinion, and from the picture, this looks exactly what you have done.

 

[PeterA]

I have a dedicated listening room in our basement. Sealed, no windows, treatments where I want them regardless of looks, low ambient noise - that sort of thing. But I’ve always envied people who have their systems in “regular” rooms who get good sound despite an abundance of windows, no 12’ ceilings and a lack of acoustic treatments. My ideal room is one of those “regular” rooms where I hang out even when the stereo isn’t on or playing quietly,, entertaining friends or reading.

My question then is “How do people pull off great sound in regular rooms, specifically without EQ?” I’d prefer that the discussion not venture into “they’re deluded - can’t be done” territory. Instead, it would be great for folks who have pulled it off to chime in and share their thoughts on how they’ve done it.

I’ve enjoyed my basement man cave but it’s time to see the light!

Nice idea for a thread. My system is in the living room of a very old and small house. I used to have all sorts of audio file acoustic treatment and thought it improved the sound. Overtime, I began to remove it and pay much more attention to speaker, location, and the judicious placement of furniture. I learned that it’s really about managing the energy in the room rather than trying to absorb it. Choosing the right equipment and setting it up properly with minimal treatment can result in a very good listening experience. The room should be a place where people enjoy gathering. Music presented naturally in such a setting just enhances the experience.

I learned a lot from a former member here. He guided me, encouraged me to do specific experimentation, and I learned by doing and listening. The speaker location and orientation and the seating location are critical. So is power delivery from the panel. I think one should try to avoid standard modern wall construction techniques with thin studs supporting sheet rock.

There is a lot to discuss and think about, but good sound in a normal room is certainly possible.

 

[dbeau]

It's interesting to try out the stereo when the room is bare, or almost bare, and how it changes as you furnish it. You need to know what bad is before you can know what good is.

Some people do lots of computer-generated room stuff, but I would argue that you never really know until you get there.

Most horn speakers are large and often ugly. The best way to deal with WAF is to get the wife to design the room with you. She effectively chose our speakers. The pointy Wilson Sabrina make them look smaller than they actually are, compared to any speaker in a rectangular box.

View attachment 136504

Wife chose my speakers (used WA Grand Slamms) while I was wandering in other listening rooms looking at stuff (she still is involved).

 

[Kingrex]

The builders would have choked to death if we'd not put in temporary ventilation (removing a window and adding a fan). There was a plaster and lathe ceiling they had to pull down and they had to hack off all the plaster. At the worst they could hardly see anything. They were close to needing breathing apparatus.

The bifold doors are solid cherry and hang off a steel beam in the ceiling. They are extremely heavy and don't rattle like normal doors. Acoustic glass is very heavy. They were made 20 years ago (by the same cabinetmaker) and relocated from somewhere else. They only needed minor adjustment in this new location.

It's a problem in older brick houses fixing walls. Sometimes they aren't very straight either. Wooden frame walls are less of a mess and easier to deal with. There is lots of advice online about how to construct them without needing acoustic panels.

The cloud? Do you mean the thing on the ceiling? No, it's just a wooden frame with souldbloc and plastered. It has a flush-mounted sound and light system, each light is a 75w full 24/192 streaming system that produces extraordinarily good sound. It is Roon Ready as well as having Amazon HD and multiple other streaming options. The lighting is infinitely dimmable and had a wide temperature range from bright white to a very cool yellow. It's all Alexa enabled. The Alexa microphones are built in the light bezel.

The secondary sound system is much better for spatial audio and casual listening. You can play music and have a conversation. We have it throughout the house. The ground floor of the house is 4 Roon zones, so when we have people round I usually group them in Roon for ambient music. It's a good way of integrating the music room with the rest of the house.

Having Amazon HD onboard allows you to choose music with Alexa voice control, I just prefer Roon.

Getting the lighting to suit both a room for normal use and as a music listening room is quite easy these days. I also use Shelly Alexa-enabled relays around the house.
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Would you share the in ceiling speaker you use. My house is wired for them and has speakers. But they are thin and seem to conflict with each other as you move around between the kitchen and attached family room.

Also, what lights are you using. Even as an electrician, I still struggle with good LED that dim well. I have to go to Xenon which I prefer to not use. I am in the plan phase of my job and getting materials sorted. Thanks

 

[DasguteOhr]

When we moved into the house, the party cellar was a disaster. I decided to completely renovate it. There was mold on the walls, probably because it had been uninhabited and unheated for a long time.
Once the walls were dry, acoustic plaster (50% sound absorption) was applied to the walls and ceiling. It took me a week - what a job no machines only with hands. The room is 24 x 17 x 7.5 ceiling.
The speakers (dipoles) are 4 feet from every wall. The speakers are 9 feet apart; the lisening position is 11 feet away.
I have normal furniture in there - a sofa, shelves, a bar, and a fireplace. I only used a few Basotect absorbers in corners and behind the TV to smooth out the frequency response.
I am very happy with the result. The open baffle speakers obviously played a large part in the good sound because they are not very critical in the bass range.

 

[marty]

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Nice idea for a thread. My system is in the living room of a very old and small house. I used to have all sorts of audio file acoustic treatment and thought it improved the sound. Overtime, I began to remove it and pay much more attention to speaker, location, and the judicious placement of furniture. I learned that it’s really about managing the energy in the room rather than trying to absorb it. Choosing the right equipment and setting it up properly with minimal treatment can result in a very good listening experience. The room should be a place where people enjoy gathering. Music presented naturally in such a setting just enhances the experience.

I learned a lot from a former member here. He guided me, encouraged me to do specific experimentation, and I learned by doing and listening. The speaker location and orientation and the seating location are critical. So is power delivery from the panel. I think one should try to avoid standard modern wall construction techniques with thin studs supporting sheet rock.

There is a lot to discuss and think about, but good sound in a normal room is certainly possible.

Peter,
Lovely room, but don't you think it's a bit over the top to keep a plank handy to hit people with on their head if they don't like horns?

 

[Bobvin]

Peter,
Lovely room, but don't you think it's a bit over the top to keep a plank handy to hit people with on their head if they don't like horns?


View attachment 136520

I was trying to find something pithy to say about the plank, decided to keep my mouth shut so maybe someday Peter will open a nice bottle and offer me smores too!

 

[ssfas]

Would you share the in ceiling speaker you use. My house is wired for them and has speakers. But they are thin and seem to conflict with each other as you move around between the kitchen and attached family room.

Also, what lights are you using. Even as an electrician, I still struggle with good LED that dim well. I have to go to Xenon which I prefer to not use. I am in the plan phase of my job and getting materials sorted. Thanks

They are sound and light combined. Some units are light only. They can be a direct replacement for standard LED lighting. You need less of them because they have exceptional luminosity and a wide angle. No new wiring is needed.

My primary interest was initially for a good intelligent lighting system. I heard about them because my son was working with them when they launched (he was sworn to secrecy, I had no idea what he was working on).

According to my electrical certificate, in our main living area we have 27 units connected to the ring that is wired with 1.5mm cable and has a line impedance of 2.42 ohms. They come with a 24v transformer and we installed about 50 of them in a morning. They have a patented spring fixing system.

The brochure is here with the full spec on the final page. You will see some familiar faces from B&W, Vivid and Naim. The design team also have huge experience in automotive audio, for Bentley, Audi, Mercedes and others. They've done most of B&W's design for over 30 years, from the Nautilus speaker to Zeppelin and the 800 series.

https://zuma.ai/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Zuma-Product-Brochure-V1.1.pdf

https://zuma.ai/

I don't think they are available in the USA yet. It's such a revolutionary product they launched they had no idea who would buy it or how to sell it.

They had to solve a lot of sound and light hardware issues, spent millions on the software, installation, power minimisation (they run on about 8w) and major wifi issues. They work in groups of up to 24 units at up to 24/192 PCM wirelessly, so they have to communicate with each other incredibly fast.

 

[DonH50]

Peter,
Lovely room, but don't you think it's a bit over the top to keep a plank handy to hit people with on their head if they don't like horns?


View attachment 136520

That would be cruel, and probably lead to assault charges. There are others to the side of the fireplace, thus the strategic placement leads me to believe that, rather than swinging a big heavy plank to bop you on the head, he simply sticks one end into the fire and has you walk the plank.

 

[PeterA]

I was trying to find something pithy to say about the plank, decided to keep my mouth shut so maybe someday Peter will open a nice bottle and offer me smores too!

There’s nothing like a cold New England winter day, followed by a nice dinner with wine and s’mores in the fireplace. Good music too. You are welcome anytime, but you bring the wine. I’m sure you know more about it than I do.

 

[ssfas]

Would you share the in ceiling speaker you use. My house is wired for them and has speakers. But they are thin and seem to conflict with each other as you move around between the kitchen and attached family room.

Also, what lights are you using. Even as an electrician, I still struggle with good LED that dim well. I have to go to Xenon which I prefer to not use. I am in the plan phase of my job and getting materials sorted. Thanks

Incidentally, and you will appreciate this as an electrical specialist, the major feature of a system like Zuma, and why I went for it, is that it makes wiring extremely simple and cheap, not least because wall switches largely become redundant. You just install everything and then just zone everything using the app. You can move units from one zone to another in seconds via the app, which in a traditional system would require rewiring. Zones can be grouped in Roon and Alexa, so saying "Alexa, turn off the downstairs lights" will turn off the lights in four zones. If you want a stereo configuration, each speaker can be designated to left or right channel, or just left in mono.

I also use for home cinema. I have two zones in the TV area. If I play something using an Apple TV+, it sends video to the screen and sound to the selected zones via AirPlay. I select the main 4-speaker TV zone and if I want more rear sound I add another 3-speaker zone.

One of the problems with budget AV multi-speaker systems is sound quality and delay because they use Bluetooth. You have to get same-brand compatible hardware so you can use their software to adjust timing. You don't have that problem with AirPlay.

 

[bonzo75]

I had put up a thread on regular rooms just called it alternative audio in response to another thread here that seemed to state specially done rooms were required to get the best in audio

Thread 'Alternative Audio'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/alternative-audio.38542/

 

[Tangram]

Loads of great information along with inspiring photos. I really like the idea of “stealth” acoustics treatment even if it involves ripping everything back to the bricks/studs.

ssfas, I assume the acoustic glass is in place to reduce sound transmission in and out of the room, and that other than helping to lower the noise floor, its reflectivity is the same as normal glass? Also, did you use acoustic glass on the windows in addition to the door leading into the room?

 

[Salectric]

View attachment 136509

View attachment 136506

Nice idea for a thread. My system is in the living room of a very old and small house. I used to have all sorts of audio file acoustic treatment and thought it improved the sound. Overtime, I began to remove it and pay much more attention to speaker, location, and the judicious placement of furniture. I learned that it’s really about managing the energy in the room rather than trying to absorb it. Choosing the right equipment and setting it up properly with minimal treatment can result in a very good listening experience. The room should be a place where people enjoy gathering. Music presented naturally in such a setting just enhances the experience.

I learned a lot from a former member here. He guided me, encouraged me to do specific experimentation, and I learned by doing and listening. The speaker location and orientation and the seating location are critical. So is power delivery from the panel. I think one should try to avoid standard modern wall construction techniques with thin studs supporting sheet rock.

There is a lot to discuss and think about, but good sound in a normal room is certainly possible.

Peter, can you tell us about the wood planks and how they affect the sound in your room? I have some idea about the one in front of the fireplace since I have experimented with various objects in the middle of the wall behind the speakers, but I am especially curious about the ones on the side of the fireplace.

 

[Kingrex]

It feels like the conversation is leaving regular rooms and into treated living rooms. Not to say that is bad. Bob of Rhapsody Portland has a nice treated living space.

 

[Tangram]

It feels like the conversation is leaving regular rooms and into treated living rooms. Not to say that is bad. Bob of Rhapsody Portland has a nice treated living space.

I guess we need to agree on what a “regular” room is. In my mind, it’s a place where “regular” friends are entertained, and where wives feel welcome unaccompanied! In my mind, stealth treatments are definitely in the mix.

FWIW, the reason I started this thread is my wife and I are in the market looking for a new house. Along with a bunch of “must haves” is the potential for a good sounding but “regular” listening room. He hasn’t chimed in, but Jeff’s listening room is a terrific example of my ideal room.

Jeff's New Music Room, the Return of Jeffrey_t

Hello All! Due to some welcome and overdue forum changes, I'm happy to return and share my new music room and system. I'll be using my Audiogon user name going forward. Over the last year I built a dedicated room on my property, my last room was a converted garage. This room has the following...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[DasguteOhr]

I see it differently, what's wrong with making a room cozy? There are so many cheap tips on the internet or modern materials that are almost invisible and have a huge positive effect on the sound. Of course you can spend huge amounts of money on room acoustics elements, but that only makes sense if you know someone who carries out a detailed room acoustics measurement. Otherwise it's a waste of money, in my opinion.