Golden Ear - Triton (closer to the) Reference

[MortenB]

Welcome Mikko

Split cross over:
I made the crossover with all parts on one large board, as you can see from my pictures. The crossovers Tony Gee is making has the components located on two boards. Meaning, parts split on two boards. No change in function, no change in sound, it’s just better for the way he builds cross overs, and it might be slightly easier to get the crossovers into the cabinet.

Removing yellow bracing:
I can say for sure, it has no structural implication to remove it. They put the bracings in there for resonans control, so in theory, and I say in theory, you might be able to measure a tiny difference, if you make laser analysis, or similar, of the back side of the cabinet while playing bass heavy music at very loud levels. But on the other hand, the much heavier crossover installed on the cabinet back panel will dampen the back of the cabinet. So in theory, and again this is theory. If you make laser analysis, or similar, with the new cross over in place, you might measure sligtly lower resonance on the back panel. These are extremely theoretical speculations, and I will bet my pair of upgraded speakers, that noone can hear the difference on these speakers with or without the small yellow bracing.

However, if you do not wan’t to remove the bracing, there is no way to install the crossover inside the cabinet. Impossible.

External crossover.
Yes, I considered this, and have talked about it earlier. This has theoretical benefits mainly that the crossover components are not inside the cabinet with it’s pressure and vibrations, but negatives with the external crossovers are more connectors in the signal path, more boxes, and speakers that no longer look stock. For me it was important to keep the speakers looking stock, not having a big box on the floor behind them. Others would consider it better with external crossovers. You can use the crossovers from Tony Gee for external use, but it’s a different project, and you would have to figure this out yourself.

 

[Mikko Mattila]

Thanks, Morten. You are really a helpful person. Thank you so much.

Got all your three points.
Re Split cross-overs and removal of the yellow bracing: Do i understand correctly that splitting the cross over does not eliminate need of removal of the bracing?

Re external cross over - this may be far stretched, but i also thought what if triamping the way the electric crossover for mids and treble would be removed and replaced by using software. Can figure out there's extra complications on this. Have no idea of software capable for this purpose. Additionally would need need a discrete 3-channel feed for both speakers, i.e. additional hardware not to mention calibration of the output.
If i recall correctly late John Dunlavy experimented this concept in one of his last speakers, but there were challenges to do it correctly even for him. This was more than 20 yrs ago. Personally don't have resources for experiments and moreover, still love my analog rig, digitizing signal on the way to a software cross-over does not make sense.

 

[MortenB]

Thanks, Morten. You are really a helpful person. Thank you so much.

Got all your three points.
Re Split cross-overs and removal of the yellow bracing: Do i understand correctly that splitting the cross over does not eliminate need of removal of the bracing?

The new cross over is MUCH, MUCH bigger, than the original, se my pictures for comparison = The new crossover can only fit inside cabinet, if the yellow bracing is removed.

I sense you don’t want to remove the bracing, then either don’t do the upgrade, or make the crossover external. Or do like the rest of us: Remove it, forget about it, and move on to enjoy the much improved sound

 

[Mikko Mattila]

The new cross over is MUCH, MUCH bigger, than the original, se my pictures for comparison = The new crossover can only fit inside cabinet, if the yellow bracing is removed.

I sense you don’t want to remove the bracing, then either don’t do the upgrade, or make the crossover external. Or do like the rest of us: Remove it, forget about it, and move on to enjoy the much improved sound

Not that much concerned of removal of the yellow bracing. My biggest challenge is to find someone with necessary skills to make this demanding surgery for my babies.

 

[MortenB]

Yes, I understand that can be a challenge, and the downside here is, that these speakers are a bit complicated to work on.

If the crossovers are shipped out to the brave upgrade gang within a week, then soon you will learn from them here in the thread what they think of the sound after the upgrade? And how they managed to get the upgrade done.

 

[Mikko Mattila]

Yes, I understand that can be a challenge, and the downside here is, that these speakers are a bit complicated to work on.

If the crossovers are shipped out to the brave upgrade gang within a week, then soon you will learn from them here in the thread what they think of the sound after the upgrade? And how they managed to get the upgrade done.

My thoughts, too, exactly.

 

[higher sound]

Hello Ref Regeneraters!

Mikko
Just read your posting and conversation with Our great
“Warrior”and go between man!
Wanted to comment on the bracing that needs to be removed
I cut it in the center with a small hand saw gave each one a slight
Jiggle then tapped them a couple of times ever so slightly where
They connect to the wall they popped right off quite clean I might add!
Take pictures of everything you do as Morten suggests
I am not by no means the caliber of Morten but followed his suggestions
And had both of them taken apart, crossovers and all drivers,bracing out in one afternoon!
So roll up your sleeves and enjoy the process
But like yourself I will have someone helping me with the install and soldering

Best Higher Sound

 

[MortenB]

Excellent work on getting the speakers ready for the uprade

 

[Markuzz]

Good morning Mikka,

I am awaiting the cross-overs from Tony. I ordered them quite some time ago, but as they say: "all good things take time". I've built several speakers in the past, also designs from Tony (which are great). I would love to help you, but I am living in The Netherlands, which is quite a drive from Finland.

Your questions:
1. The split cross-over means that there will be one board for the mid-drivers, and one for the tweeters. This should ensure a more easy fit into the cabinet.
2. In my experience, bracing is a very structural part of the enclosure. So if possible (with the split boards) I will try to maintain the brace in the Tref.
3. I am considering to make a nice box for the filters, and place them right behind the speakers...... but have not made a final decision on that. It has advantages to place the filter outside the cabinet. Also, in case of the Tref, it makes life A LOT easier Probably I will do a test, to see what the sound difference will be.

Cheers, Mark.

 

[MortenB]

1. Not quite that way. One board will have some parts for the mid woofer filter. The other board will have the rest of the parts for the midwoofer filter + the tweeter filter parts. The boards will have wires soldered between them. It might be easier to get them into the cabinets, it might be the same, it might be a bit more difficult - because you need to install threaded inserts for two boards. But basically it’s the same, just an easier way for Tony to build them, as he can use the boards he always use for his filters. Easier and less time consuming for Tony = cheaper for you guys.

2. Agree, that is also my experience. Therefore I was surprised to find a thin piece of wood, only attached to the sides of the cabinet, not connecting the sides and the back panel, as we usually see with structural bracing forming ‘’shelves’’ inside a cabinet. I was even more surprised to lean, that the bracing is hardly attached. It’s held with a few drops of glue and few tiny nails and sits quite ‘’loose’’. Peoples definition on what is structural, and what is not can differ of course. In my opinion it’s not, and Tony agree, he does not consider it structural either. Between us we have more than 80 years of experience working with speakers, so that’s our opinion.

Best of luck trying to fit the two crossover boards without removing the brace The challenge is, that the metal baskets for the passive radiator takes up most of the space inside the cabinet. This means the cross over must be at the back panel to clear the baskets of the passive radiators, and one small piece of bracing is in the way. You will see what I mean once you open the box.

3. If we don’t mind the external box (personally I did not want it), some steps of the upgrade is easier, some more complicated and much more time consuming. For instance you need to get the input signal for the active bass system out of the speaker, and connect it to the input of the external filter. With external crossovers I think the best would be to make a new back panel with 3 sets of connectors: Two sets for the speaker drivers, and one connector, maybe Specon, to get the signal for the active bass out to your external filter. I mean the small metal panel on the back. You would then need to move the DSP board, the volume knob etc etc to that new back panel, these are screwed and glued in place. Quite time consuming work, and of course you need to build the box for the cross overs also. I think the external filter solution will be more time consuming, than the internal filter.

For sure a cool feature with external filters is to be able to A - B test old and new filters

 

[Markuzz]

1. OK, it is a bit surprising to learn that splitting the boards is for design purposes only, and doesn't mean that the boards are divided over the drivers. Previous boards I got from Tony were always soldered point to point, so I do not understand the meaning of so called "standard boards". I just await the filters, hopefully it will make sense by then.

2. I have not opened the enclosures yet, but if the brace is constructed like you say...... well that's just pointless. Probably it was designed correctly, but implemented poorly. Or maybe the brace was placed after mounting the standard filter. Who knows.

3. I would take a different - less cumbersome - route on external filters. Leave the stock filter in place, and connect the outgoing wires to the mid-woofers and tweeter to a speak-on terminal on the back. A second speak-on terminal will be connected with new wires to the drivers. On this second terminal the new filters can be connected.

With a small jumper cable over the speak-on terminals, it will be easy to switch between stock and new filters. Yes, you will need to drill holes into the back of the cabinet. If that is a constraint, then this route is a no-go. Maybe it's possible to put the speak-on terminals on the aluminium back plate. Not sure yet.

In any case the modification process is simpler. and it is still possible to revert back to stock (with upgraded internal cabling).

Yes, you will need a secondary speaker cable to the stock binding post for the DSP/amp. So that would imply bi-wiring, or a split-off from the new filters.

Again, this is all said without opening the cabinets...... so maybe I am missing something

 

[Mikko Mattila]

3. I would take a different - less cumbersome - route on external filters. Leave the stock filter in place, and connect the outgoing wires to the mid-woofers and tweeter to a speak-on terminal on the back. A second speak-on terminal will be connected with new wires to the drivers. On this second terminal the new filters can be connected.

With a small jumper cable over the speak-on terminals, it will be easy to switch between stock and new filters. Yes, you will need to drill holes into the back of the cabinet. If that is a constraint, then this route is a no-go. Maybe it's possible to put the speak-on terminals on the aluminium back plate. Not sure yet.

In any case the modification process is simpler. and it is still possible to revert back to stock (with upgraded internal cabling).

Yes, you will need a secondary speaker cable to the stock binding post for the DSP/amp. So that would imply bi-wiring, or a split-off from the new filters.

Again, this is all said without opening the cabinets...... so maybe I am missing something

Interesting indeed and looking very much forward seeing your external implementation of the filter.

 

[MortenB]

Markuzz, once you open the speakers and look inside, you will know what all this talk is about: VERY limited space and extremely difficult to fit a MUCH larger crossover into that space. It took me a few weeks to find a solution, and I even build some mock-up cross overs out of wooden blocks and cardboard to try different solutions… Everything stranded on one of these two problems, or both:

Not possible to get the passive radiators installed properly, because the crossover was in the way.
Not possible to secure the crossover to the inside of the cabinet, because of bad access.

For instance, I tried locating the mockup higher up in the cabinet, behind the midwoofers = out of the way of the baskets for the passive radiators, as I thought that was the best location. But then no way to secure the crossover to the cabinet, as you can’t get your hands in there to work on drilling, fastening etc. The solution would have to be long screws through the cabinet from the outside. I did not want to damage the cabinet and having 4 visible screws back there and potentially chipping the piano gloss paint when drilling. I wanted the speakers to appear stock from the outside.

I was about to give up and go for the external crossover, but then I found the solution with removing the small non structural bracing, and all was good.

Now to your 1, 2 and 3:

1. Again, and as said before: There is VERY limited space inside the cabinet for a BIG crossover. The layout of the parts is determined by the space inside the cabinet. Simple as that.

Look at Tonys website, all his cross overs are build on glassfiber boards with lots of holes in them. That is his standard, his way of working, his way of building cross overs. It’s much faster for him to build crossovers that way, and faster is less money to pay for the customer. I have not in any way implied, that you get some kind of ‘’standard board’’ as in some sort of ‘’off the shelf standard crossover’’, of course not. I build my cross overs on 10mm MDF, meaning cutting, sanding and a lot of measuring/drilling, and that takes a lot longer.

2. I know I’m getting close to repeating myself a 100 times in this thread: Once you open the speakers and look inside, you can see for yourself.

Somewhere online, maybe it was an interview, or maybe in one of the reviews Golden Ear explain, that they make laser analysis of their cabinets. Basically they build a complete cabinet, measure by laser, and then add small bracings strategically. That’s a clever way, as you can limit the bracings to a minimum = maximizing the internal volume without making the speakers bigger, and potentially also reduce manufacturing costs. That’s why I refer to the small piece of bracing as being there for resonans control. Removing it will in theory mean a bit more cabinet resonans at the back side of the cabinet. But then again, the much heavier cross overs will in theory dampen the back panel, and that should reduce resonances. In my world this is very theoretical though.

3. Be aware Markuzz… As I understand your desciption you want to have two comple sets of wiring + cross overs attached to the drivers at the same time. Correct?

If that is correct the crossover in use will ‘’see’’ the wrong load, as it ‘’sees’’ both the driver, and the ‘’spare’’ crossover. The result is, that the cross over does not work as intended, as it’s finely tuned to the specific characteristics of the specific driver. Change things up by just a tiny bit, and all is off…

Your approach of having two complete signal paths with the original filter / wiring, and another singl path with the new filter and the Furutech is perfect for comparing the original with the new,, but you have to be able to completely disconnect the ‘’spare’’ signal path, so the crossover ‘’in use’’ only see the driver it’s designed for.

Regarding drilling holes in the back of the speakers: You paid for them, you own them

 

[Markuzz]

Hi Morten,

OK, so I opened one of the cabinets by removing two radiators and took a peek inside. I appreciate your point on the limited space (and many braces). I did however develop some new ideas on how and where to mount the new filters but will wait first for them to arrive. This to avoid getting into a debate.

I'd like to reply only on point 3 as you seem to have misread that. Obviously, I do not intend to have two cross overs in parallel in the signal path. To be frank, anyone considering this idea should stay away from changing the filters

If (and that is still a big if) I would settle on external filters, then I would leave the stock filter in place and have it's output cables connected to a speak-on terminal on the back of the cabinet. Needless to say, you need to disconnect the DSP/amp from the stock binding posts, and use the RCA input in order to make this set up work.

A secondary speak-on terminal will be used to (re)wire the mid woofer and tweeter drivers. On this second terminal the external filters can be connected, or you can loop the speak-on terminal (with a jumper cable) where the stock filters have it's output.

So in both scenarios there's always one filter in the signal path. Plus switching between filters can be done within seconds. Third, the modification inside the cabinet is minimal. No need to remove braces or anything else.

And yes, mounting speak-on terminals to the cabinet (when done carefully) will look good/professional.

Cheers, Mark.

 

[MortenB]

Good that you have opened the cabinet. I can write forever and never get a point across. I was at a point where I would stop posting in the thread, as I have explained the process to the best of my abilities (in a second language). The rest is up to you guys.

Seeing things for yourself is much better.

Maybe you can find solutions I could not. Excellent. It seems you don’t mind modifying the cabinets by drilling new holes etc, and this for sure opens up possibilities, for instance installing the new cross over up behind the mid-woofers as mentioned above. I wanted a solution without external modifications to the cabinets, and that limits the options.

OK, now I understand your idea. That will work for sure, but there will be longer wiring, more connectors in the signal path and a not reverible modification to the ‘’back plate’’ (unless you make a new one of course). For me both the exterior modification, and the extra wire and connectors in the signal path is something I would never do as it will compromise sound. But that’s just me… Very cool set-up though for comparing the original and the new I would love to hear your impression from such an A - B comparison

And yes, you would need to disconnect the input to the DSP board from the speaker terminals, and use the RCA for input to the active bass system instead. My system is super minimalistic: A turntable and two boxes from Thöress in Germany. No preamp out possibility in this system, so for me one of the great thing with these speakers is, that the internal DSP + amp can run from the signal on the speaker terminals.

 

[Mikko Mattila]

Good that you have opened the cabinet. I can write forever and never get a point across. I was at a point where I would stop posting in the thread, as I have explained the process to the best of my abilities (in a second language). The rest is up to you guys.

Your insights are so much appreciated. Its really important we could exchange ideas, as apparently this operation is not that straight forward as some others..
To add, this thread - initiated by you - was (nearly) only reason i wanted to open an account here in WBF.

 

[MortenB]

I see that I misspoke (the second language again). I did not mean to leave the thread. I ment to stop trying to explain things, as I can’t do that better, than what I have done already.

If there will be other implementations of the upgrade, external filters, other ways to do the internal filters etc, it would be cool to see them here in the thread to inpire others.

Nice room The tall sleak speaker blend in very well..!

 

[Markuzz]

Hi Morten,

Agreed, adding connections in the signal path is undesirable. But it can be limited to one extra connector in case of the new external filters. With the stock filter you will actually loose some clamped connections by soldering to the terminals and stock binding posts.

The metal connectors on the stock filter and the drivers is something I find unacceptable in a loudspeaker of this caliber. Probably by only removing these and solder directly will be a solid improvement.

Also, the additional cable length is indeed an issue, but more from a cost perspective. It's nearly impossible to hear/measure an additional 0.3m in cable length.

Even though it is not the end of the world, I must admit that I am also not thrilled to drill into the cabinet. Without going off topic, I am considering to upgrade to some good feet for the loudspeaker. Think of IsoAcoustics Gaia or Townshend seismic podia. By implementing them it will raise the loudspeaker slightly off the ground. And this makes for an exit on the underside of the loudspeaker. A place no-one will look when reverted to stock

Finally, I am in the same boat with Mikko. I only joined this platform because of your thread. So you are highly, highly appreciated for setting it up and your ideas. Hell, I am the first one to actually order the filters, just because of you (and also Tony)

 

[Mikko Mattila]

Forgive me if this is off-topic while we are awaiting more juries coming out, but this is my memory of the day when the TRefs came in an T Ones went out

 

[MortenB]

Hi Morten,

Agreed, adding connections in the signal path is undesirable. But it can be limited to one extra connector in case of the new external filters. With the stock filter you will actually loose some clamped connections by soldering to the terminals and stock binding posts.

The metal connectors on the stock filter and the drivers is something I find unacceptable in a loudspeaker of this caliber. Probably by only removing these and solder directly will be a solid improvement.

Also, the additional cable length is indeed an issue, but more from a cost perspective. It's nearly impossible to hear/measure an additional 0.3m in cable length.

Even though it is not the end of the world, I must admit that I am also not thrilled to drill into the cabinet. Without going off topic, I am considering to upgrade to some good feet for the loudspeaker. Think of IsoAcoustics Gaia or Townshend seismic podia. By implementing them it will raise the loudspeaker slightly off the ground. And this makes for an exit on the underside of the loudspeaker. A place no-one will look when reverted to stock

Finally, I am in the same boat with Mikko. I only joined this platform because of your thread. So you are highly, highly appreciated for setting it up and your ideas. Hell, I am the first one to actually order the filters, just because of you (and also Tony)

Your post makes me think of on of my most important learnings regarding loudspeakers: No loudspeaker, or loudspeaker driver is perfect, they are full of problems and compromises. Speaker design is choosing how to balance/work these problems and compromises.

The same goes for speaker upgrades, no upgrade is perfect, there are always compromises. My solution is not perfect, and your solution is not perfect.

I made my balance of compromises focusing on not touching the externals of the cabinet, and focusing the upgrade om the best possible sound quality - eg high quality wire between filter and driver, soldered directly to the crossover and drivers.

You have different ideas and different compromises, and that is all good You have mentioned saving time a few times. As I understand it, you seem to believe it’s faster to make the external cross over, drill holes in the cabinet, install connectors etc etc… I think it will take more time ;-) As reported by Higher Sound earlier, he stripped down both speakers in an afternoon, now ready for the opgrade, and that will likely also take an afternoon. I don’t think we can do it faster than that…