How do you know when you are done?

[Mike Lavigne]

on the KL Audio thread i responded to Ron's points about changing gear where he he responded to a @XV-1 post "Ron, just think of the turnover of your equipment in the last 18 months.


" saying "But I'm not sure that one swap of three things and an additional third thing is a lot compared to many."


with this post........"10 years from now is when you can look back to say when stuff actually settled down and were set......for 3-4 years in a row. where changing is no longer a thought."


then @tima picked up on that and responded to my point....."It is an interesting phenomena -- how do you know when you're satisfied. How do you know when you're done? "

Ron said "I'll know it when I hear it.

i was going to respond to Tim on that thread, but thinking about it, seemed like it's an important enough subject to justify it's own thread so not to comingle it with the KL Audio thread.

how do you know when you are done? and what does done mean? done listening? done talking about changing? done changing? done major piece changing? or just dialed way back on your sense of pursuit? in my mind all those things are forms of being done.

personally i have made it known i'm sorta done and i've got life style changes going on which has changed my priorities considerably. does that mean i don't think about better sound? my answer right now March 14th, 8:28am PDT is i'm not sure exactly what it means. but for sure something has changed for me in terms of how i view my hifi/music hobby path. there are no pieces of gear on my mind to acquire. i'm not thinking about my next move. yet; listening and thinking about the hobby still burns brightly.

before i made the decision last summer to change my lifestyle i think i had already felt i was done. satisfied. investigated what i needed to. acquired the media i wanted to. flirted with some major changes, but realized i was just wanting change for change sake and pulled back from that spot and realized i had what i wanted already. i was in a place of contentment. where when i listened my heart was good. my boxes were checked.

i was hearing what i needed and wanted to hear and was/am happy. day after day after day. and being retired did not want to reinvent my hifi self to explore other approaches.

in my mind no doubt if something minor is presented to me that does move the system performance needle i'm still open to that, but nothing too big. i'm good. i'm done.

what does being done mean to others? where is that for you? what needs to happen, or not happen, for you to feel like you are done? and if so is it......."at a place of rest until the next push"....or...."done for now"......or........"done till you are not done"......or "really done forever"?

 

[Kippyy]

Great question. For most of the last 15 years, I constantly had my eye on "the next upgrade" to my system. While this may have detracted from my enjoyment of my system ("How would it sound if I had x"?), it also was a financial burden too. Since numerous friends have told me how great my system sounds, I've been content that I have a world class system, my enjoyment has risen, and I feel less compelled to pursue "the latest upgrade".

 

[microstrip]

(...) how do you know when you are done? and what does done mean? done listening? done talking about changing? done changing? done major piece changing? or just dialed way back on your sense of pursuit? in my mind all those things are forms of being done.

Considering a theoretical perspective in terms of stereo sound reproduction all we can know is that we are never done, unless our objective is simply maximum accuracy to the recorded signal within the official limits of hearing thresholds. As long as we hold the subjective candle the tunnel never ends - unless we try to rationalize it using things like the law of diminishing returns.

personally i have made it known i'm sorta done and i've got life style changes going on which has changed my priorities considerably. does than mean i don't think about better sound? my answer right now March 14th, 8:28am PDT is i'm not sure exactly what it means. but for sure something has changed for me in terms of how i view my hifi/music hobby path. there are no pieces of gear on my mind to acquire. i'm not thinking about my next move. yet; listening and thinking about the hobby still burns brightly.

You are using the exact words - lifestyle. This hobby is also a lifestyle. Decisions on lifestyle or economics can put an end to changes and a "done forever", sometimes implying a downgrade.

before i made the decision last summer to change my lifestyle i think i had already felt i was done. satisfied. investigated what i needed to. acquired the media i wanted to. flirted with some major changes, but realized i was just wanting change for change sake and pulled back from that spot and realized i had what i wanted already. i was in a place of contentment. where when i listened my heart was good. my boxes were checked.

Should we consider you got to the saturation level? Audiophiles must create (or simply accept) the new boxes - if we do not do it there is nothing new to check.

i was hearing what i needed and wanted to hear and was/am happy. day after day after day. and being retired did not want to reinvent my hifi self to explore other approaches.

Many times retirement brings new hobbies and priorities. Some of my audio acquaintances and friends gave up on the hobby when they retired.

in my mind no doubt if something minor is presented to me that does move the system performance needle i'm still open to that, but nothing too big. i'm good. i'm done.

Hard to believe, time will tell. But as long as we keep alternative choices in our systems and excess of equipment we hardly use we can't consider ourselves as being done.

what does being done mean to others? where is that for you? what needs to happen, or not happen, for you to feel like you are done? and if so is it......."at a place of rest until the next push"....or...."done for now"......or........"done till you are not done"......or "really done forever"?

I was almost done a couple of years ago - moving to a new house changed my tranquility. But I always assumed that it was not more than a "done till you are not done".

 

[Mike Lavigne]

As long as we hold the subjective candle the tunnel never ends.

wisdom.

You are using the exact words - lifestyle. This hobby is also a lifestyle. Decisions on lifestyle or economics can put an end to changes and a "done forever", sometimes implying a downgrade.

we hope we can have it all........somehow. anyway that is the plan. and keep our significant other's happy too.

Many times retirement brings new hobbies and priorities.

when we have more time, we hope we find more value for using that time. expand our comfort zones.

Some of my audio acquaintances and friends gave up on the hobby when they retired.

sad. but maybe not. maybe just right for them. giving up something that has meant so much to me and enriched my life is not even thinkable. certainly not the 'done' i'm interested in as long as my hearing is decent. i don't take that for granted.

Hard to believe, time will tell.

agree.

But as long as we keep alternative choices in our systems and excess of equipment we hardly use we can't consider ourselves as being done.

i see what you are saying.

I was almost done a couple of years ago - moving to a new house changed my tranquility. But I always assumed that it was not more than a "done till you are not done".

what i figured.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

According to Noel I am Done Forever :)

 

[mtemur]

there are no pieces of gear on my mind to acquire. i'm not thinking about my next move.

On the contrary that’s exactly when you change gear—when you’re happy with what you hear from your setup. You become defenseless because of that happiness. Nobody spends more because they’re unhappy with their setup.

When you start constantly buying music and listening to new albums instead of searching for new equipment, that’s when you’re done. That’s my opinion.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

On the contrary that’s exactly when you change gear—when you’re happy with what you hear from your setup. You become defenseless because of that happiness. Nobody spends more because they’re unhappy with their setup.

maybe there is truth to that in a twisted Kedar-like way, and maybe not. seems a bit of a reach. but you will need to make a better case than that.

When you start constantly buying music and listening to new albums instead of searching for new equipment, that’s when you’re done. That’s my opinion.

last summer i finally got around to cleaning and sorting a 3000 pressing Classical collection i had for 4 years just sitting there. sampling those was the most system/listening fun i had had for many years. part of which i had spent a few years optimizing my vinyl gear.....and so my system delivered fully on those pressings. i was very happy. and so that is where my hifi energies are focused. not on gear.

i don't need to buy or search, they are all here already waiting to be enjoyed. it will take years. i do still enjoy the hifi gear discussions, but am not drawn to the pursuit.

 

[TonyW]

This strikes a chord with me. I have been introspective many times over the past four years about my unbridled zeal in building what is likely my last stereo system since i retired. My wife has heard me say, "This is it." many times now recently. Even I started to know better. The seven or so systems that I have built since college served me on average 6.5 years but in reality the last couple of systems served me for over two decades. Once I got to a level of satisfaction I stopped changing gear for several years. Money was always the limiting factor but this time around it was not. Still, I went through a few iterations working up the nerve to spend more money to get the gear I was really happy about. This last iteration is also the second time I have built a dedicated room around the stereo in over 40+ years.

I've spent way, way more money on audio these past four years than I ever thought I would. Left side brain says enough is enough. Right side brain is extremely happy now. I'm happiest being back to enjoying the music and not hearing imaging, detail, resolution. Yes, it still happens sometimes but most often the music just captivates me. The digital side has cost me probably 10x more than I ever expected to pay but having infinite music at my fingertips that also sounds amazing was worth it to me.

I could listen all the time but I have disciplined myself to turning the system on just 3 or sometimes 4 times per week or else I would not get anything else done. I also appreciate it more that way.

It's an infinite hobby, it's a lonely hobby. Family and friends enjoyed it to a point. And as if there isn't a more expensive something that promises to do it better to chase after, there is the new and improved version of what I have being released just now. I get satisfaction now walking into a hi end store and hearing systems that do not sound as good as mine- a few things are better of course, that is always the case but overall I can rock at home.

First Rule of Audio: What you have sounds great- until you hear something better.

 

[JohnP]

I’m never done. I enjoy improving the sound. Why not?

JohnP

 

[hopkins]

When you start constantly buying music and listening to new albums instead of searching for new equipment, that’s when you’re done. That’s my opinion.

The two are not necessarily related. Another criteria could be whether you only listen to music that sounds good (i.e. a certain type of recording quality). If that's the case, you may be done upgrading your equipment, but you are not done being an audiophile.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I’m never done. I enjoy improving the sound. Why not?

it's what we do. no reason not to. until it's time for some of us to not do it anymore. for whatever reason.

this thread is about what that looks like. the thread is not about being critical of the pursuit of better sound. and i hope others don't feel a need to defend that. it needs no defense or justification.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

but overall I can rock at home.

First Rule of Audio: What you have sounds great- until you hear something better.

the chase is fun.......if it's not fun then don't do it.

 

[mtemur]

maybe there is truth to that in a twisted Kedar-like way, and maybe not. seems a bit of a reach. but you will need to make a better case than that.

That has happened to me—I spend when I’m happy with what I hear. I’ve seen this exact situation countless times among my friends.

When audiophiles aren’t happy with their setup, they feel offended and act as if it doesn’t exist. The idea in their mind isn’t upgrading—it’s selling everything. That’s completely natural and, in my book, a part of being an audiophile.

If you’ve never felt the urge to jump out of your seat and smash your turntable with a hammer while it’s playing, you’re not truly into audio. If you’ve never been that mad—never experienced your setup sounding awful one day for no reason after sounding excellent the day before—then you haven’t truly been in this hobby.

Being heartbroken and being madly in love with your setup are inseparable parts of this hobby. And nobody spends money on a lover he’s planning to leave. I don’t know if this proves anything, but being happy in this hobby makes you vulnerable—just like being a foolish lover. That’s my opinion.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

That has happened to me—I spend when I’m happy with what I hear. I’ve seen this exact situation countless times among my friends.

When audiophiles aren’t happy with their setup, they feel offended and act as if it doesn’t exist. The idea in their mind isn’t upgrading—it’s selling everything. That’s completely natural and, in my book, a part of being an audiophile.

If you’ve never felt the urge to jump out of your seat and smash your turntable with a hammer while it’s playing, you’re not truly into audio. If you’ve never been that mad—never experienced your setup sounding awful one day for no reason after sounxcellent the day before—then you haven’t truly been in this hobby.

Being heartbroken and being madly in love with your setup are inseparable parts of this hobby. And nobody spends money on a lover he’s planning to leave. I don’t know if this proves anything, but being happy in this hobby makes you vulnerable—just like being a foolish lover. That’s my opinion.

ok, now i get where you are coming from. and i did go through those stages too a few times. where i turned away from hifi to other hobbies for 6-9 months at a time back when i was sorting out my room for 10 years. once went down the camera road, another time bought a couple expensive bikes. just got away from hifi as my main mental place. so thanks i do see your point.

OTOH that result is not always how things go. one can be happy with hifi and music and not continue to act on wanting better sound.

in my case i had a system end game, executed it, enjoyed it and had a realization i was where i wanted to be, considered some changes, then reconsidered those changes, and then realized i was done. just my personal story up to this point. time will tell......

 

[Another Johnson]

Honestly, the people who can answer properly will never see your post because they’ve already quit spending time on forums.

Many will never be done because their life is on forums and it would be too painful to withdraw.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Honestly, the people who can answer properly will never see your post because they’ve already quit spending time on forums.

Many will never be done because their life is on forums and it would be too painful to withdraw.

there is a group of audiophiles who are done, another group almost done, another group full speed ahead, and a group of newbies.....and groups in between up to full speed.

an audiophile group who never read any forums, a group who lurk on forums, a group who look only when they are investigating, a group who join and rarely post, a group who post some, and a group who post on forums a lot.

my guess is that these two general levels of participation on the hobby and the forums don't really affect each other too much. maybe one tends to drop down a level of forum focus based on changes to your level of pursuit. but activity on forums is more based on relationships, personalities and community than anything. and those things are not universal, but those who have them value them. either one sees the fun in it or not.

but life and lifestyle changes can be at play too.

but mostly health and time permitting; solid forum participants will stick around even when their acquisition days are behind them.

 

[TonyW]

It comes down to this question: Is the audio system the means for enjoying music or is the system the end goal? Is the goal to enjoy music or great sound? A guy on youtube has a massive system with no apparent source material. He cycles through gear endlessly. It's all about big big big. (ie. Big looks, big sound, big money).

At the other extreme I met a guy who had 10's of thousands of records. He had a modest turntable and receiver. It was a nice, very large room and all four walls were covered in records from floor to ceiling.

To each his own. I embrace it. I find the music expert interesting and useful as much as the equipment expert. And I am somewhere in the middle.

I wonder if musicians have forums where they talk about musical instruments and which model or version sounds best and if they pursue better instruments. Why wouldn't they? If they are making a living at it I'm sure they look for ways to gain a competitive advantage, right?

Someday I might hold a best home stereo contest in our neighborhood. I know I will win- by default because no one else will care.

 

[OrigTweaker]

Here's how my upgrade journey began, and brought me to the crossroad that Mike is talking about:

My wife and I built a new house in the Rocky Mountains, far from the city where we met and had lived for decades, which featured a SOTA (at that time) 7.1 home theater and a 6-zone Russound/Boston Acoustics in-wall system for music everywhere else. Other than installing a new projector and surround electronics from time to time during the first 15 years, I was content to just enjoy the original speakers until I was offered a screaming deal on the much-improved current models for front left, right and center in the theater. I didn't want to part with the old, but still worthwhile, active floorstanders in there so I set up a stereo system in my odd-shaped living room which -unlike the theater- was not designed with acoustics in mind.

Now I started fooling around with ways to get better sound in the living room, trying well-reviewed electronics (including then-new products from Allo and Uptone) player software, vibration control products, power supplies, cables, cords, feet etc., until I arrived at a place where there were no obvious deficits to overcome. Effective room correction and the addition of a subwoofer gave me acceptable frequency response, and, when I finally replaced the old speakers, the new models disappeared into a large 3D soundstage with precise imaging.

Arriving at the To-Upgrade-Or-Not? Crossroad today, I am feeling my way (listening) in the dark because I don't seem to hear any problems until they are eliminated -or maybe only reduced. The system is perfectly fine until I read about someone mixing different Finisar transceiver models, for example, to find that music can be more perfectly finer.

Other than going for a promising new technology (Diretta protocol for me in 2024, EtherREGEN v2 later this year?), what advice can my fellow explorers offer someone who feels that they are driving blind?

-Or am I done?

 

[TonyW]

Here's how my upgrade journey began, and brought me to the crossroad that Mike is talking about:

My wife and I built a new house in the Rocky Mountains, far from the city where we met and had lived for decades, which featured a SOTA (at that time) 7.1 home theater and a 6-zone Russound/Boston Acoustics in-wall system for music everywhere else. Other than installing a new projector and surround electronics from time to time during the first 15 years, I was content to just enjoy the original speakers until I was offered a screaming deal on the much-improved current models for front left, right and center in the theater. I didn't want to part with the old, but still worthwhile, active floorstanders in there so I set up a stereo system in my odd-shaped living room which -unlike the theater- was not designed with acoustics in mind.

Now I started fooling around with ways to get better sound in the living room, trying well-reviewed electronics (including then-new products from Allo and Uptone) player software, vibration control products, power supplies, cables, cords, feet etc., until I arrived at a place where there were no obvious deficits to overcome. Effective room correction and the addition of a subwoofer gave me acceptable frequency response, and, when I finally replaced the old speakers, the new models disappeared into a large 3D soundstage with precise imaging.

Arriving at the To-Upgrade-Or-Not? Crossroad today, I am feeling my way (listening) in the dark because I don't seem to hear any problems until they are eliminated -or maybe only reduced. The system is perfectly fine until I read about someone mixing different Finisar transceiver models, for example, to find that music can be more perfectly finer.

Other than going for a promising new technology (Diretta protocol for me in 2024, EtherREGEN v2 later this year?), what advice can my fellow explorers offer someone who feels that they are driving blind?

-Or am I done?

Digital, and especially digital streaming is still changing fairly rapidly- just like cell phones. Except that 20 years ago I could have a telephone conversation without repeatedly asking, "Can you hear me?"

 

[Kingsrule]

I'm impressed..not one "end game" so far in this thread, then I realized SW hasn't posted here yet...

ML didn't you put your speakers up for sale just a short time ago? That sure didn't seem like a "I'm done" move. Of course as far as I recall you went dark as to what u were looking to move to and that all seemed to just go away. Maybe that was a big moment for you