I am a luddite - in other words Mains Cable

[sbo6]

Well, not really, the answer was yes, it has been measured many times, followed by a discussion of measuring the current flow of cables in isolation and a bit of semantics about what is direct and what is indirect (Is "direct" the measurement of the output of the component the PC is supposed to improve, or the measurement of the cable in isolation? I think that depends on the objective of the measurement). If anything was said about a measured change in the performance (you put it better -- analog output) of a component as a result of an upgraded PC, I must have missed that part. And of course, an audible change in the output of the component in question - lower noise floor, lower distortion, flatter FR, faster response... - is the only thing that matters, and the thing that never seems to get discussed in anything but anecdotal reports from audiophiles and cable suppliers.

So no...nothing satisfactory, or convincing, here so far.

Tim

Basically you are dismissing the efforts of a device that shows instantaneous current delivery capability - cable vs cable, connector vs connector because while their is measurable proof you have not seen a comparison of the output (post preamp, post amp, etc). You raise a good point how about the old Carver challenge test and see what the delta is maybe?

 

[amirm]

I suspect we all agree that there is no other place than power cables when it comes to the depth of the gap between stated fidelity improvement and ability to demonstrate that objectively. Shunyata has arguably taken the best shot at closing that gap with their current measurements and such. Other companies just use flowery words and leave it at that. But the gulf is so large that their explanation still leaves a ton to explain the perceived differences and potential causes in my opinion.

Perhaps the best explanation I have heard as to why power cables and interconnects could make a difference comes from one of our short-term engineering member, jneutron (sp?). The case he makes is that consumer gear (improperly) uses ground as a reference for the signal, i.e. the ground wire in unbalanced interconnects. Once we connect multiple pieces of equipment together, all at different ground potential, that all kinds of currents start to flow. The balance of such current flows readily changes as you change how you power equipment or interconnect them. That it is this change that can explain why someone would detect a difference. Not an improvement necessarily mind you. But a difference.

That is a two-sided sword though. That a well designed system should be more immune to such changes. So to some extent, it takes a less well designed system to make a difference! Food for thought.

 

[amirm]

Basically you are dismissing the efforts of a device that shows instantaneous current delivery capability - cable vs cable, connector vs connector because while their is measurable proof you have not seen a comparison of the output (post preamp, post amp, etc). You raise a good point how about the old Carver challenge test and see what the delta is maybe?

There is a fundamental challenge here when it comes to measurements. The instrument itself is powered from AC. Per my previous reply, its mere connection to the rest of the gear will change the setup yet again. So the measurement system will be changing what is being measured in this regard.

I have had some thoughts about making measurements of differences without any physical test equipment connection. It is on my TODO list .

 

[Occam]

There is a fundamental challenge here when it comes to measurements. The instrument itself is powered from AC. Per my previous reply, its mere connection to the rest of the gear will change the setup yet again. So the measurement system will be changing what is being measured in this regard.

I have had some thoughts about making measurements of differences without any physical test equipment connection. It is on my TODO list .

If your intent is to non-invasively/no electrical connection, fully measure currents in situ on av components, rather than with a simplified, partial cycle, physical approximation ala DTCD, you could use a Rogowski probe like the PEM CWTLF or LFR AC current probes.
http://www.gmw.com/electric_current/PEM/cwt.html?gclid=CNuh2Oz7wcUCFdQRHwod7hkACw

 

[amirm]

If your intent is to non-invasively/no electrical connection, fully measure currents in situ on av components, rather than with a simplified physical approximation ala DTCD, you could use a Rogowski probe like the PEM CWTLF or LFR AC current probes.
http://www.gmw.com/electric_current/PEM/cwt.html?gclid=CNuh2Oz7wcUCFdQRHwod7hkACw

View attachment 20443

I already have the current probe. It is the time to do the testing that is lacking . The other thing is a physical fixture to make sure each power cord lays exactly the same way as otherwise I worry about stray pick up.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Basically you are dismissing the efforts of a device that shows instantaneous current delivery capability - cable vs cable, connector vs connector because while their is measurable proof you have not seen a comparison of the output (post preamp, post amp, etc). You raise a good point how about the old Carver challenge test and see what the delta is maybe?

No, I'm dismissing the answer, because the measurement of the cable isn't what matters, its audible effect it has on the component/system is. And that has not been established here as far as I can tell. If someone is selling you purpose-specific whatever, at a very high price, do you not expect them to have tested that whatever, serving its purpose, and to be able to demonstrate a benefit for that price?

Tim

 

[Loheswaran]

Dear All

Should one invest in a conditioner first, or a dedicated mains?

thanks

Lohan

 

[kleinbje]

Definitely a dedicated line, you will ensure both low noise, and high quality conductors of the proper size. A conditioner may then be added.

 

[ddk]

Dear All

Should one invest in a conditioner first, or a dedicated mains?

thanks

Lohan

Definitely dedicated mains & if possible, ground too!
Been looking for years, haven't found a single power conditioner that doesn't color the sound in a major way...
david

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Definitely a dedicated line, you will ensure both low noise, and high quality conductors of the proper size. A conditioner may then be added.

So high-end audio components don't ship with high quality conductors of the proper size? An argument for mid-fi.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

Dear All

Should one invest in a conditioner first, or a dedicated mains?

thanks

Lohan

You will get no definitive answer to this question. It depends on the quality of your current mains line, system, cost of installing dedicated lines and power approach. I have three dedicated lines and several regular mains distribution points in my room. Sometimes with some systems the difference between switching the distribution points is minimal compared to changing the power cables. Some systems are insensitive to power conditioners others really need them. But my mains power is of very good quality, as I live close to a distribution transformer - less than .2 ohm 50 Hz impedance and most of the time less than .8% THD.

 

[Groucho]

As someone who does design electronics for a living, the mains cable is not something that should ever be considered important. If it is, then the device you are designing is a decidedly 'fragile' device. Real engineers are aware that the vulnerable points in any electronic design are the inputs and outputs that interface with the real world. The aim should always be to
(a) protect these against potentially destructive signals (short circuits to ground or power, electrostatic discharge)
(b) condition against noise and radio frequency interference (into and out of the equipment)
(c) ensure stable operation for all legitimate sources/loads.

It is clear reading these forums that many boutique 'hi fi' devices do not meet these criteria, whether it is reputedly jitter-intolerant DACs, or amplifiers that can be destroyed by connection to an awkward load or short circuit. Sensitivity to the choice of mains cable (assuming it has adequate current carrying capability) would be another prime example - if it actually existed: it is hard to see how you could actually do this. I see two choices: either it is a case of expectation bias, or the amplifier has been designed extremely badly.

The point about the hundreds of miles of cable finally reaching your home is, of course, perfectly valid. The point about the final metre of mains cable being a restriction that could impede the flow is neither here nor there. If this was the case, all we would need to ensure was that our mains cable was equal to, or beefier than, the tens of feet of twin-and-earth that exist in our homes prior to emerging from the wall. A 100 metre reel costs a few tens of dollars.

Edit: it would be interesting to ask an amplifier designer what the ideal mains cable should be. If the answer was anything but "beefy" or words to that effect, we could then go on to ask him what the ideal R,L and C the cable should possess. If he actually had an answer for that, we could (a) ask him why he didn't mention this in the user manual, thereby risking his amplifier sounding worse than it could, (b) ask him why he didn't build the mains impedance matching into the amp, and (c) we could specifically design a cable costing $5 to achieve those exact specifications - obviously beyond a mere amplifier designer's capabilities - and maybe manufacture it and sell it to the amplifier designer to bundle it in with the amplifier! If R,L and C didn't cover it, that would mean there was something so mysterious about the required cable that even the designer of the amplifier didn't know about it. What chance is there of any of this working satisfactorily then?! The cable 'designer' doesn't know what the amplifier needs, and the amplifier designer doesn't know what the best cable should be. It is ridiculous. Occam's Razor says that audiophile mains cables are simply a triumph of marketing over common sense.

 

[microstrip]

We are fortunate at WBF to have two members who are designers and manufacturers and have given extensive and very interesting threads on power cables in the past - Gary Koh of Absolute Fidelity and Caelin Gabriel of Shunyata. IMHO we can not expect that every time some one picks an old arguments against power cables they will come here to answer. Perhaps the management of WBF can create a sticky or something similar on these great threads of the past. These way readers could easily get the arguments from both parts and judge for themselves anytime before starting from zero.

BTW, one key point to any power cable debate that is often ignored is that the equipment itself generates electrical noise.

 

[Groucho]

We are fortunate at WBF to have two members who are designers and manufacturers

But they are designers of the cables? I would like to hear from the designer of an amplifier or other mains-powered component about why their creation might be sensitive to the mains cable.

Edit: I think we are in the realms of implying that electronic product designers are mundane plodders who merely 'engineer' their products and are unaware of the subtleties that might exist outside their box. At the same time we laud them as geniuses who know how to turn electronic components into virtual musical instruments. And then we are crediting cable 'designers' as people who outsmart the plodding electronics designers by understanding how all existing and all future products yet to exist, work, plus they know what comes out of all mains wall sockets and can, with nothing more than wire, insulation and (maybe) shielding, influence what comes out from the other end of the amp. It does not compute.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

But they are designers of the cables? I would like to hear from the designer of an amplifier or other mains-powered component about why their creation might be sensitive to the mains cable.

Edit: I think we are in the realms of implying that amplifier designers are mundane plodders who merely 'engineer' their products and are unaware of the subtleties that might exist outside their box. At the same time we laud them as geniuses who know how to turn electronic components into virtual musical instruments. And then we are crediting cable 'designers' as people who outsmart the plodding amplifier designers by understanding how all existing and all future amplifiers yet to exist, work, plus they know what comes out of all mains wall sockets and can, with nothing more than wire and shielding, influence what comes out from the other end of the amp. It does not compute.

So would I.

Tim

 

[DaveC]

Definitely dedicated mains & if possible, ground too!
Been looking for years, haven't found a single power conditioner that doesn't color the sound in a major way...
david

The SurgeX units I mod would fit your criteria. They will make a significant improvement without changing the character of the system. I've tried other filters in the SurgeX, additional capacitive filtering, PFC and ground isolation and these have produced significant coloration. The bone stock SurgeX units really are properly designed, they just need better parts to be used with high resolution audio systems to avoid adding grain. SurgeX has customers like NASA, Boeing, Carnegie Hall, etc... giving them a little more credibility than most typical audiophile stuff.

------------------

On the topic of power cables, they are making the same connection these fancy, expensive grounding systems are making. In most components the signal ground and chassis ground are tied together at one point, a simple continuity test will confirm this. This being the case, the ground connection in a power cable is far more significant that most think. I've seen lots of power cables with large conductors for hot/neutral with ground as an afterthought and thinner in gauge, this is a bad design imo... There is a direct, linear relationship to the resistance between component grounds and the noise created by potential differences between these grounds. Lower R, lower noise.... it's as simple as that and the underlying principle on how these grounding systems work, along with filtering noise from the ground connection... Since these ground boxes have been opened now it's pretty obvious exactly what's going on and it is as simple as this. A box full of dirt/minerals and some dressed-up welding cables....

This also means the way your system is powered can make a big difference, if the goal is to reduce DCR between components then they should all be plugged into the same power distribution point that connects all their grounds together. Often, this isn't the case as people figure more lines the better, often running multiple lines from a service entrance far, far away from the system. Think about how much this increases the DCR between components plugged into these different lines... and how the grounding boxes correct for this mistake. If you really need to have multiple lines (you don't for 99.9% of home audio systems) each line should have it's own surge protection and emi/rfi filtration either through a point of use distribution box or from a wall-mounted unit, and each line's power distribution box should have it's ground tied to each others using a heavy gauge ground cable. Or just spend 5-6 figures on Tripoint/Entreq gear...

Finally, on a decent power cable the heavier gauge wire and higher quality connectors make a big difference as does the geometry of the wires, their conductor material and insulation.

 

[microstrip]

Quoting Caelin Gabriel on his text "Why Power Cables Make a Difference" http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/powercords.html

"Sometimes the cure may be worse than the illness. As always - you must know your materials and tools and apply intelligence with a small dose of intuition to create a world class product. There is no silver bullet and there is no rote formula that works in all cases. There is just hard work, occasional inspiration and lots of testing.”

BTW point 4 addresses interaction with the amplifier power supply.

 

[TBone]

BTW, one key point to any power cable debate that is often ignored is that the equipment itself generates electrical noise.

Yes, this form of isolation became even more important (within my system at least) when integrating equipment using a switch mode power supply.

 

[Groucho]

Yes, this form of isolation became even more important (within my system at least) when integrating equipment using a switch mode power supply.

If I had a problem with a noisy power supply, should my first instinct be to tackle it with an audiophile power cable? Maybe it has "highly innovative conductor geometry" or "optimised dielectric ratios" - but I made those up, and I'm not the only one. Personally, I'd be looking to tackle it at source or by the direct engineering approach, not the boutique audio supplied-in-a-wooden-presentation-case approach.

 

[TBone]

If I had a problem with a noisy power supply, should my first instinct be to tackle it with an audiophile power cable? Maybe it has "highly innovative conductor geometry" or "optimised dielectric ratios" - but I made those up, and I'm not the only one. Personally, I'd be looking to tackle it at source or by the direct engineering approach, not the boutique audio supplied-in-a-wooden-presentation-case approach.

Well, fine .. however I "tackled" my specific issue w/dedicated power line conditioning & a proprietary grounding scheme. My main equipment power-cables are mostly comprised of non-boutique, but never-the-less HQ Belden shielded cables ... + 2 Cardas power types used within specific applications/equipment.