If you could travel back in time, what would you tell yourself as a young audiophile?

[twitch]

Higher quality alcohol would have probably made more sense than more expensive gear .................

 

[microstrip]

Just curious what lessons you learned as an experienced audiophile that you wish you knew at a much younger age.

Lee,

I must say that I always considered this hobby (being an audiophile) to be a very enjoyable one, both for the music, the technical and the social aspects.

But only when I got a good understanding of the more intrinsic aspects of stereo sound reproduction I realized why "box swapping" is part of it.

IMO audiophiles either swap or spend their time trying to rationalize why not swapping.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Nothing wrong with swapping gear as long as it leads to something
I swapped also a lot 10-20 years ago .
You hear something better and there you go.... swap...

 

[PeterA]

Of course I completely agree. I write all the time that the most expensive audio component should not be assumed to be what your ears find the most emotionally compelling.

Imaginations seemed to be running wild in trying to interpret what I wrote.

Let me give y'all an example:

Let's say an audiophile is looking for a preamp, and a manufacturer whose preamps you know you love makes an entry-level model, a mid-level model and a flagship-level model. If you won the lottery you know you would buy the flagship level model in a second. You know you like the sound of all three models -- the goodness just increases, with diminishing returns, as you go up the line.

So you buy the entry-level model thinking (correctly!) that you can get most of the sonic goodness of the flagship model for a fraction of the price. Many people do precisely this, and I think that's great. (I did this myself with the entry-level LampizatOr Baltic 4, targeting high sound quality value for minimal investment.)

But a subset of audiophiles who get the entry-level model will still have a hankering for the flagship model, and then they will decide to upgrade to the mid-level model because they decide they want a higher fraction of the flagship capability in return for putting in more money than the entry-level model cost. But now they have to sell the entry-level model they already bought.

The mid-level model gives them more of the maximum goodness of the flagship level model, without paying the full flagship level price. So they have the mid-level model for a while, but the flickering desire for the flagship never goes out. So they sell the mid-level model and buy the flagship model. Now they have their dream preamp, and they are happy -- hopefully for many, many years.

My only point is that if an audiophile is this kind of person, then he/she is best off buying the flagship model in the first place, rather than buying and selling the entry-level model and the mid-level model over the course of the journey to the flagship model.

I should have given this simple explanatory example in my original post. I apologize for writing so generally in the original post.

Ron, why would this kind of audiophile be "BEST OFF" buying the flagship at the start? You make this behaviour sound like a sub hobby that has merits that stand on their own. You seem to suggest that some audiophiles do this because they want to do it and enjoy this sub hobby of box swapping as you call it. They buy a lower model, listen, enjoy, learn, gain experience, and then maybe move up or sideways while trying something new. Who are you now to pronounce that they would be better off if they bought the flagship model in the first place? Why are you suggesting what is best for others? This is how they approach the hobby.

Do you consider yourself a box swapper? You usually go for expensive big, impressive, etc etc. I had thought your dream system hatched after years in exile during your renovation would be fairly stable. Instead, you seem to be practicing this very subhobby that you describe, whether you identify that way or not. You started with the top gear, then rethought everything. Now you seem to be doing what you describe as that subhobby by not getting flagships and starting cautiously in digital and trying to improve it, and with your new dealership, getting a non flagship model. Don't know about the electronics which are also changing.

There is no problem with any of that. Approaches change. And you are doing what you want to be doing. It just looks to me that you are now approaching the hobby the way many people do, learning along the way, changing your ideas, and moving along, learning and gaining more experience. This seems to me to be a typical approach, and not one I would describe as box-swapping the way you seem to define it.

 

[Al M.]

Just curious what lessons you learned as an experienced audiophile that you wish you knew at a much younger age.

To my younger self: The Redbook CD format will exceed your wildest expectations.

 

[treitz3]

I don't think I would be able to convince my younger self that this would be the case.

Tom

 

[Zuman]

I probably wouldn't have listened, but I wish that I had been told (with more authority and understanding) that I should take better care of my hearing while young. That might have made my chasing of fulfilling reproduced sound less frustrating now that I'm no longer young.
Also, I think I understand Ron's recommendation regarding buying what you want from the start. While we will hopefully always discover new gems, making compromises in order to achieve immediate gratification rather than waiting for what I really wanted (due to budget, space, availability, etc.) has usually not served me well.

 

[PeterA]

I find Audio too difficult and complicated a subject to simply go out and get what you think is right and be finished. You need experience and exposure and a lot of learning to be in a position to make informed decisions. It also depends on how far you want to go in the hobby and really how into it you are. There is also just being happy and enjoying listening to your music.

Some people simply go fishing and love it. Others get much deeper into it, tying their own flies, traveling to remote streams, searching for all sorts of different types of fish and experiences.

 

[caesar]

Of course I completely agree. I write all the time that the most expensive audio component should not be assumed to be what your ears find the most emotionally compelling.

Imaginations seemed to be running wild in trying to interpret what I wrote.

Let me give y'all an example:

Let's say an audiophile is looking for a preamp, and a manufacturer whose preamps you know you love makes an entry-level model, a mid-level model and a flagship-level model. If you won the lottery you know you would buy the flagship level model in a second. You know you like the sound of all three models -- the goodness just increases, with diminishing returns, as you go up the line.

So you buy the entry-level model thinking (correctly!) that you can get most of the sonic goodness of the flagship model for a fraction of the price. Many people do precisely this, and I think that's great. (I did this myself with the entry-level LampizatOr Baltic 4, targeting high sound quality value for minimal investment.)

But a subset of audiophiles who get the entry-level model will still have a hankering for the flagship model, and then they will decide to upgrade to the mid-level model because they decide they want a higher fraction of the flagship capability in return for putting in more money than the entry-level model cost. But now they have to sell the entry-level model they already bought.

The mid-level model gives them more of the maximum goodness of the flagship level model, without paying the full flagship level price. So they have the mid-level model for a while, but the flickering desire for the flagship never goes out. So they sell the mid-level model and buy the flagship model. Now they have their dream preamp, and they are happy -- hopefully for many, many years.

My only point is that if an audiophile is this kind of person, then he/she is best off buying the flagship model in the first place, rather than buying and selling the entry-level model and the mid-level model over the course of the journey to the flagship model.

I should have given this simple explanatory example in my original post. I apologize for writing so generally in the original post.

Ron,
Nice post. The assumption you are making is that people have explored enough in this hobby, such as yourself, Bonzo, and a small handful of others.

Most people don't know what they like. They trust an "expert" and/ or the audiophile herd. For example, how many guys who bought a wilson seriously explored a horn or another lesser known box speaker brand? How many guys who bought a taiko compute3r for as much as a car, compared it to a $3K CD transport from China or another streamer band? Not many, in reality.

But if they have really explored and know what they like, I agree with you.

 

[PeterA]

Ron,
Nice post. The assumption you are making is that people have explored enough in this hobby, such as yourself, Bonzo, and a small handful of others.

Most people don't know what they like. They trust an "expert" and/ or the audiophile herd. For example, how many guys who bought a wilson seriously explored a horn or another lesser known box speaker brand? How many guys who bought a taiko compute3r for as much as a car, compared it to a $3K CD transport from China or another streamer band? Not many, in reality.

But if they have really explored and know what they like, I agree with you.

The whole premise of the thread is that we are discussing the topic among experienced audio files who are reading this thread to then benefit from hindsight and give their younger selves advice.

I have no way of knowing for sure, Cesar, but I tend to agree with you that some people don’t operate from the benefit of hindsight because they lack the years and years of experience and knowledge about the hobby. They are still learning. Those who do have that knowledge and experience eventually end with a system that remains stable. There seem to be quite a few examples of that here on WBF.

Others seem to stop searching because they have simply lost interest and are happy with what they have or they don’t encounter something they think would give them a more meaningful listening experience than what they already get.

If I could go back in time, I would tell myself to seek out a handful of music lovers knowledgeable and experienced with Audio. I would seek out those passionate about both subjects. I would talk to them and ask them a lot of questions. And then I would compare what I hear from their recommendations to what I hear from live music.

With that information, I would request a low cost entry point system based on who I thought was giving the best advice. And I would ask them about set up and learn as much as I could.

Then I would start the real learning process by experimenting on my own. People with better knowledge and experience can guide you, but I have learned that real progress and joy comes from discovering how to take it further on your own. It’s a very individual hobby. I would take it from there staying in contact with some of those people over time always trying to learn along the way and exchanging ideas.

 

[Al M.]

Most people don't know what they like. They trust an "expert" and/ or the audiophile herd. For example, how many guys who bought a wilson seriously explored a horn or another lesser known box speaker brand? How many guys who bought a taiko compute3r for as much as a car, compared it to a $3K CD transport from China or another streamer band? Not many, in reality.

Knowing what you like is not just about exploring, even though certainly it is about that too.

You need to know your personal taste and your personal listening priorities. Then look for components and systems that are in harmony with that, and don't chase for perfection.

A system that can do it all perfectly doesn't exist. Everything is a compromise. That already starts with speaker positioning -- and this holds for any speaker regardless of price point.

Once you have optimized things for your personal taste and your personal listening priorities that is as close to perfection as you will get. You will like the result, some others perhaps too, and yet others less so. That's the nature of things, because we are all different.

 

[Lee]

The whole premise of the thread is that we are discussing the topic among experienced audio files who are reading this thread to then benefit from hindsight and give their younger selves advice.

I have no way of knowing for sure, Cesar, but I tend to agree with you that some people don’t operate from the benefit of hindsight because they lack the years and years of experience and knowledge about the hobby. They are still learning. Those who do have that knowledge and experience eventually end with a system that remains stable. There seem to be quite a few examples of that here on WBF.

Others seem to stop searching because they have simply lost interest and are happy with what they have or they don’t encounter something they think would give them a more meaningful listening experience than what they already get.

If I could go back in time, I would tell myself to seek out a handful of music lovers knowledgeable and experienced with Audio. I would seek out those passionate about both subjects. I would talk to them and ask them a lot of questions. And then I would compare what I hear from their recommendations to what I hear from live music.

With that information, I would request a low cost entry point system based on who I thought was giving the best advice. And I would ask them about set up and learn as much as I could.

Then I would start the real learning process by experimenting on my own. People with better knowledge and experience can guide you, but I have learned that real progress and joy comes from discovering how to take it further on your own. It’s a very individual hobby. I would take it from there staying in contact with some of those people over time always trying to learn along the way and exchanging ideas.

I kind of like the notion of “standing on the shoulders of giants.”

We can learn by leaders in the field and get better and better sound quality.

One of the big advancements for me in digital was due to Caelin Gabriel quizing me about my router and power supplies. I might never have stumbled upon this on my own. Or at least Caelin got me further along faster.

Experimenting with audio and sharing the knowledge is the key.

This may be optimistic but some sound systems can at times sound astonishingly realistic. Maybe gaining more audiophiles is a combination of technology getting us breathtaking sound and then finding better ways to build awareness.

 

[Lee]

Knowing what you like is not just about exploring, even though certainly it is about that too.

You need to know your personal taste and your personal listening priorities. Then look for components and systems that are in harmony with that, and don't chase for perfection.

A system that can do it all perfectly doesn't exist. Everything is a compromise. That already starts with speaker positioning -- and this holds for any speaker regardless of price point.

Once you have optimized things for your personal taste and your personal listening priorities that is as close to perfection as you will get. You will like the result, some others perhaps too, and yet others less so. That's the nature of things, because we are all different.

I am not sure I fully agree here as some speaker placement rules really do give optimal musical engagement. That’s less about personal taste, at least in that one parameter.

 

[bonzo75]

Of course I completely agree. I write all the time that the most expensive audio component should not be assumed to be what your ears find the most emotionally compelling.

Imaginations seemed to be running wild in trying to interpret what I wrote.

Let me give y'all an example:

Let's say an audiophile is looking for a preamp, and a manufacturer whose preamps you know you love makes an entry-level model, a mid-level model and a flagship-level model. If you won the lottery you know you would buy the flagship level model in a second. You know you like the sound of all three models -- the goodness just increases, with diminishing returns, as you go up the line.

So you buy the entry-level model thinking (correctly!) that you can get most of the sonic goodness of the flagship model for a fraction of the price. Many people do precisely this, and I think that's great. (I did this myself with the entry-level LampizatOr Baltic 4, targeting high sound quality value for minimal investment.)

But a subset of audiophiles who get the entry-level model will still have a hankering for the flagship model, and then they will decide to upgrade to the mid-level model because they decide they want a higher fraction of the flagship capability in return for putting in more money than the entry-level model cost. But now they have to sell the entry-level model they already bought.

The mid-level model gives them more of the maximum goodness of the flagship level model, without paying the full flagship level price. So they have the mid-level model for a while, but the flickering desire for the flagship never goes out. So they sell the mid-level model and buy the flagship model. Now they have their dream preamp, and they are happy -- hopefully for many, many years.

My only point is that if an audiophile is this kind of person, then he/she is best off buying the flagship model in the first place, rather than buying and selling the entry-level model and the mid-level model over the course of the journey to the flagship model.

I should have given this simple explanatory example in my original post. I apologize for writing so generally in the original post.

This is very flawed and NLF thinking. At the time where you love manufacturer X’s preamps and can afford his entry level, you were assuming by the time you upgrade to his higher level you haven’t learned anything new and your preferences haven’t changed. This strategy of yours only works if all audiophiles start off knowing exactly what they want and there is no further learning.

You are personally not upgrading to a model of anything that you have owned. Not ML Neoliths, etc not VTLs latest, not the Absolute Nothing.

You are right, you might upgrade the Lampi, but then there are others on that journey who might lose all interest in digital by the time they are ready to upgrade and go vinyl.

 

[tima]

Let me give y'all an example:

y'all ?

 

[PeterA]

A system that can do it all perfectly doesn't exist. Everything is a compromise. That already starts with speaker positioning -- and this holds for any speaker regardless of price point.

Though it may be true that a single system cannot reproduce all music perfectly, I do not approach the hobby with this dire premise. And who actually knows? Who has heard every system out there?

This may be optimistic but some sound systems can at times sound astonishingly realistic. Maybe gaining more audiophiles is a combination of technology getting us breathtaking sound and then finding better ways to build awareness.

I completely agree. I tend to be more optimistic and like Lee, I have heard a couple systems that sound extraordinarily realistic on certain recordings. Zerostargeneral’s piano recording he posted a few days ago sounds extremely convincing.

I do not think everything is a compromise, presuming Al was talking about the listening experience and not something like price or size or convenience. Having been exposed to a couple really extraordinary systems, I can only think that someone out there has assembled something even better which really approaches the sound of an actual instrument in a room. The premise on which I operate is that there are some no compromise components and rooms. I have heard some that I think come extremely close. There must be more and some that are even better at least on some types of music.

 

[bonzo75]

y'all ?

He has got a cowboy drawl now given how much he is shooting from the hip on this thread

 

[Ron Resnick]

y'all ?

I guess y'arent familiar with how we speak in the South?

 

[PeterA]

I guess y'arent familiar with how we speak in the South?

CA sure ain’t the South, but I understand more and more Californians are moving to cities like Dallas and Nashville.

 

[Ron Resnick]

CA sure ain’t the South

I am an honorary North Carolinian, having had a beach house in Sanderling in Duck in the Outer Banks for 16 years.