In praise of idlers

[bonzo75]

Marc, is this the same sound foundations vinyl periphery ring?

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/sound-foundations-vinyl-lp-periphery-ring.27273/#post-551996

 

[spiritofmusic]

It is. It's a perfectly well engineered example at a good price. Just surplus to requirements now. As is my Pathe Wings lp weight.

An example of tweaks I've gone back on.

My rim/idler is deliberately designed to not damp lps in anyway, incl concept of letting lps rest unrestrained on pods. Ring and weight always ran contrary to designer Vic's ethos.

 

[bonzo75]

It is. It's a perfectly well engineered example at a good price. Just surplus to requirements now. As is my Pathe Wings lp weight.

An example of tweaks I've gone back on.

My rim/idler is deliberately designed to not damp lps in anyway, incl concept of letting lps rest unrestrained on pods. Ring and weight always ran contrary to designer Vic's ethos.

But over there you said "

For unrelated reasons, I'm finding I'm not using the ring. The way my linear tracking arm works with a manifold over the platter means it's proving impractical to use the ring. C'est la vie."

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well, I stuck it out. Had a nr fatal accident w my stylus which is the bane of all users of such rings. At the time it's SQ impvt meant I put up w the fear factor of totalling a stylus.

Now I'm gauging it's actually not helping audibly, I'm happy to pass on it. Again Lol.

 

[jespera]

Unfortunately I do not have access to the paper anymore - it is an AES copyright, reserved to paid subscribers.

Thanks for your interest, but I am sorry I can't keep up with your study, in order to go on the subject properly I would need some extra free time. But it seems to me there is some mistake in your spreadsheet or in my understanding of it - the energy of the rotating turntable platter is usually quoted to be between several hundred and a few thousands joule and you report less than half of a joule (.41041 J) .

Anyway it seems to me such idealistic simple approach would be chaotic - small variations in the poorly known values would lead to enormous differences in the conclusions. But it is just a feeling ...

It seems we disagree on the Sondek. I was a lot younger at that time, but the damn thing had a lot of rhythm and beat for rock. And I can't believe that the tens of thousands of owners who found so were all wrong!

To get to 100s of Joules of kinetic energy the table needs to travel by bus — or you need the calculations done by a numerologist ...

 

[spiritofmusic]

The LP12 certainly was the gold standard for tts w PRaT in the 70s/80s, certainly compared to the opposition in the UK at the time ie Roksan/Xerxes and Pink Triangle/Anniversary. I spent months auditioning it at Grahams in N. London...and then went ahead and bought the Xerxes instead.

I would actually say what I considered compelling and seductive at the time was a midbass hump and hugely euphonically coloured character. Nothing overtly wrong w that, made extended listening hugely enjoyable.

But my thoughts in retrospect having heard Linn tts since w various aftermarket upgrades, many more, and better belt drives, and a swathe of excellently restored idlers, is that the Linn appeared to have drive but it was a seductive warmth. The Linn also invariably ran fast, was poor on average speed stability, and regularly came out of optimised setup. Anazingly despite all this, it could appear to hold a tune.

Idlers which occasionally get the accusation that they compel because of a coloured midbass, I think are misrepresented by this criticsm. My take is that the idler density of presentation, tonal saturation and torquey verve, is actually reasonably representative of real music, whereas the Linn was a mass of heightened midbass energy, running a little fast, which was bound to appeal more than those sterile DDs that were all the rage in the early 70s.

 

[montesquieu]

My take is that the idler density of presentation, tonal saturation and torquey verve, is actually reasonably representative of real music, whereas the Linn was a mass of heightened midbass energy, running a little fast, which was bound to appeal more than those sterile DDs that were all the rage in the early 70s.

Very much agree with this. I grew up about 6 miles from the Linn factory in the west of Scotland and naturally aspired to an LP12 (to replace precisely one of those sterile DD decks I had in through my school and student years). There was no thought or decision-making about it, the notion that the LP12 was the best deck around at least for real world money was unchallenged in the UK, and certainly not in Scotland. I was into music anyway not hifi so didn't pay attention to what the hifi press might have been saying, for or against. So the Linn was one of the first things I bought when I entered the workforce after university in the early 80s.

I still owned it (+ multiple upgrades sold to me when it inevitably needed servicing) 20 years later, till I started to listen a bit more critically and actually heard a few more turntables. (By that point I had a bit more free cash as well). It was replaced with a Garrard 401/cherry plinth/Thomas Schick tonearm which was a revelation at the time, though I had a few more twists and turns to go before settling on a Schopper'd TD124.

I certainly don't feel cheated all those years, I enjoyed it, even tolerated pitch wobble because, well all decks sounded like that anyway didn't they? And what was better than an LP12 anyway? ! circular reasoning perhaps but it didn't do us any harm back then.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Montesquieu, the Linn Sondek was THE aspirational tt to have in the 70s and 80s, preferably with a big 6 pack Naim active, Linn Isobarik or Naim DBL system.

I remember literally going to sleep each night hoping that one day I'd have the £25k needed for this gargantuan system.

Fast fwd to 2019, and I've spent £25k alright...just on cables!

 

[jespera]

Marc, your comments on the LP12 are very precise. Warm and bubbly -- but wobbly.

I also really like this one:

"... the idler density of presentation, tonal saturation and torquey verve, is actually reasonably representative of real music ..."

Indeed, and real natural music that's what I want to hear from my stereo.

Idler, valves and efficient speakers is what gets me closest. IMHO and experience and so forth.

Jesper

 

[zerostargeneral]

Jesper,

Dear Sir,I am enthralled by your very incisive humour twinned with your obvious intelligence,the numerology line floored me.

As such how do you feel about light being neither a wave nor a particle?

I ask because of a recent encounter with a post doctorate paper from a Finnish individual that posited the theory.

Kindest regards,G.

 

[jespera]

Dear General, thank you for your kind words.

To answer your question: I can live with it.

Honestly, Im limited when it comes to quantum physics, but I thought light being a bit of both was not a new thing ...?

Anyways, do you think understanding sound as sine waves only is correct?

br

Jesper

 

[spiritofmusic]

Not much light, but plenty of heat, in audio discussions.

 

[zerostargeneral]

The paper concludes neither a wave nor a particle,as opposed to both states observed in the double slit.
I am fully versed in the peer accepted quantum norms,this paper alludes to a light supporting ether(not defined)that could be weak force bonded to photons?

The numbers are hard block calculations without extrapolating functions that so far, test within the realms of real and applicable.

Where music is concerned sine waves would be ideal.Is it the only way to produce and perceive sound?

Pass.

Kindest regards,G.

 

[jespera]

You're very welcome to send the paper to me, but I'm not sure I'll be able to understand it.
But I'll be happy to give it a go.

All natural sounds start with a transient part. Mathematically, a step function followed by
ringing sine waves. I think our hearing is constructed the complicated way it is, because it makes
it possible for our brains to detect the transients in time. This is in turn used by the brain to navigate
the sound field and, for example, zoom in on voices in a noisy environment. The so-called cocktail
party problem.

I think the reproduction of transients is important to our perception of good natural sound. I think
that's why I like the idlers. I also think that all attempts to approximate the step functions with sine
waves (analog or diigitally) will end in tears and gibbs phenomenon.

Far out and tbc when I get the time to write it all down.

skål

Jesper

 

[microstrip]

To get to 100s of Joules of kinetic energy the table needs to travel by bus — or you need the calculations done by a numerologist ...

I was just quoting a turntable manufacturer (EAT) - but now checked and a rough calculus gives around 1 watt for my AF1.

Surely you were correct - if the energy was 1000 joule a 50W motor would need at less 20 s to reach full speed, admitting 100% efficiency and no bearing friction! The main point is that the angular velocity is very low 3.49 rad/s.

Just the critical question again - do all idler drive users use screw type vinyl clamps?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Just the critical question again - do all idler drive users use screw type vinyl clamps?

my Saskia idler uses no clamp, i tried my Durand record weight but heard no effect. the platter has strips of rubber to 'grab' the pressing. these strips can be removed if preferred.

the Saskia is designed to keep the platter moving while you switch sides. the spindle is higher to make it easier to locate it when changing sides.

notice i deleted the math questions. at the university i stopped math at differential equations and never returned.

 

[microstrip]

my Saskia idler uses no clamp, i tried my Durand record weight but heard no effect. the platter has strips of rubber to 'grab' the pressing. these strips can be removed if preferred. (...)

My question is that all reasoning on stylus drag is admitting that platter / LP is a single rotational entity, something that seems absurd to me. Considering the very low mass of inertia of the LP, IMHO the weakest link in the chain at medium frequencies of a non clamped system is the LP/platter coupling, not the belt. See that, for example, many people put and take the disks without stopping the turntable.

Would you be happy if your car tires were loose on the wheel? Yes, I am joking - I know you do not care on the why's, just on what we enjoy!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ha, Francisco! And on my Salvation, lps don't even sit on the platter, but on nine Delrin cones. Not so much the tyres being loose, but the wheels coming off the axles, cartoon styley.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

My question is that all reasoning on stylus drag is admitting that platter / LP is a single rotational entity, something that seems absurd to me. Considering the very low mass of inertia of the LP, IMHO the weakest link in the chain at medium frequencies of a non clamped system is the LP/platter coupling, not the belt. See that, for example, many people put and take the disks without stopping the turntable.

Would you be happy if your car tires were loose on the wheel? Yes, I am joking - I know you do not care on the why's, just on what we enjoy!

we let our ears be our guide.

it's very easy to observe the musical advantages of drive leverage, high mass platters, high mass plinths, and inertia have on turntable sound.

the platter-pressing interface is less predictable. Win added those rubber strips on the Saskia logically to promote grip. seems to work, and i have no plans to remove those. with my NVS, which has a standard screw down clamp, i use the Durand record weight, which does not screw down. i tried mats and other weights over the years and preferred the Durand.

and yes, i'll happily leave the why to you and try to be clear that my views are observations, SWAG, and not scientific.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

My question is that all reasoning on stylus drag is admitting that platter / LP is a single rotational entity, something that seems absurd to me. Considering the very low mass of inertia of the LP, IMHO the weakest link in the chain at medium frequencies of a non clamped system is the LP/platter coupling, not the belt. See that, for example, many people put and take the disks without stopping the turntable.

Would you be happy if your car tires were loose on the wheel? Yes, I am joking - I know you do not care on the why's, just on what we enjoy!

I do believe that the vacuum suckdown sounds superior on the Vyger than not even with a very flat LP. I also thought it would reduce resonance somewhat since the LP couples of the rubber seal / platter surface (that doesn’t ring).