Incredible Stillpoints

[PeterA]

I don't think Magico recommends anything other than what comes with their speakers. Not even QPods.
AFAIK, the QPods are to be used for electronics, not speakers.


alexandre

Alon Wolf told me (I'm paraphrasing here) at the Magico Q3 debut at Goodwins High End that he strongly believes (and designs accordingly) that his speakers should be firmly grounded to the floor, i.e. no movement. He said that any interface with the floor that allows ANY movement of the baffle front and back, would be detrimental to the performance of his speakers and thus to the sound of the system. He then asked the audience to imagine a speaker placed on an ice rink and what would happen to its location and resulting sound once dynamic music was played through it.

I was not aware that the QPods are designed for electronics only. Thanks for that. Regardless, it is clear that the Magico footers are a completely different design from the Stillpoints Ultra 5. The Magico footers (spikes or cones as in my case) allow for no movement, while the Stillpoints are "frictionless bearings?" or something which allow the component, or speaker in this case, to move slightly. At least the top disk slides relative to the bottom disk. The Magico footers couple the speaker to the ground, while the Stillpoints de-couple or float the speaker relative to the ground. These are different design philosophies and perhaps have different intentions.

If someone has a better understanding of what the Stillpoints are doing and how they are doing it, I would welcome your comments. I looked for some explanation about the technology of the Ultra 5 on the website a few nights ago and could not find a description of the technology, nor of it's intended sonic benefits.

 

[MadFloyd]

Not to slap the Stillpoints fan boys too much...BUT one of the BIG problems that I believe that we have in this hobby is people stating absolutes that aren't necessarily correct. Stillpoints most likely will and do work well with SOME gear....BUT like everything in the hobby, a universal isn't likely to be the case. As I posted earlier, the friend who owns Vandy 7's thought they were a disaster for his speakers. They clearly don't work well with Peter A's Magico's either. The fact that some of you are happy with the results with their Wilson Alex's...means that they work well with the Wilson Alex's in "certain conditions"....BUT not that they will work well with Wilson Alex's in ALL instances. The moral here would seem to be that as usual, and this applies I believe to ALL gear, one simply has to audition new gear with one's own system to be sure of improvement. That's why they say YMMV.

I think that's a fair statement.

 

[jap]

My current audio man just happens to be a Stillpoints dealer. I've got a great relationship w/him, having got phenomenal results with the Entreq grounding system he's introduced to me. So I'll have a great opportunity in future to assess the efficacy of SSs/Ultra5s v Rollerblocks in various a-b's. Agree re price, decking out in Ultra5s will be 3x the price of Rollerblocks, so they'll have to come up trumps to even consider them. My one experience of them, w/SSs under my Entreq grounding box was really something (esp. since the Silver Tellus is a passive box, not connected to the mains or in series w/components), but too short a time to make a final conclusion.

Symposium Acoustic makes the Rollerblock Jr.HDSE which was developed for use with heavy loudspeakers.

They cost $399. for a set of four. Upgrading to Grade 3 Superballs adds $460.

 

[rbbert]

I think the Stillpoints work primarily in the same way Finite Elements, FIM, Rollerblocks and Aurios work, the ball-and-cup example from Gary's article, which also applies to the built-in bases in some Genesis and NOLA speakers. All these different products have individual variations on the ball-and-cup technique, and I'm not sure what Stillpoints adds, but in at least some cases it works better than the others.

 

[PeterA]

This from someone with no actual application of stillpoint's ultra's in his system. Your conjecture is certainly entertaining with little to back it up. I have them under and on top of all components in my audio chain. It was done systematically and in every instance they improved the sound. I am sure you can find a few instances where they are not beneficial, like suspended turntables... Other than that, they are a win. Their effect is cumulative.

Because of the many enthusiastic reports like this, I actually tried them on top of my Pass XA160.5 amps which already sit on Vibraplanes. Surprisingly, I did not hear a difference. I regret not trying them under the amps, but then the hassle of deflating and moving the 150 lb Vibraplanes plus 136 lb ballast plates out of the way was too much to contemplate. It is also unclear to me from reading this thread if they should be screwed into the existing threads for the amp feet or if they should be moved around without the threads to find the best spot. Some say flush against the component is fine, others not. Some users say to experiment, but others say they must be screwed in with a "credit card" gap to the bottom of the component. Perhaps I will get them back from my friend and play some more under components.

It would be interesting to hear from those members who used to own Stillpoints. A few had been used under speakers. Unfortunately, I suspect former owners with dissenting opinions don't feel welcome to share their views.

 

[asiufy]

Don't know. I received a newsletter early last year, and they mention this exact topic (third party spikes and accessories). They were pretty emphatic about things.
I can't find this email anymore, and it might've been something sent to dealers and distributors. I remember the other subject of the email (the main one, actually) was the move to the new factory, so this must've been something like january/february 2013.


alexandre

 

[rockitman]

I think the Stillpoints work primarily in the same way Finite Elements, FIM, Rollerblocks and Aurios work, the ball-and-cup example from Gary's article, which also applies to the built-in bases in some Genesis and NOLA speakers. All these different products have individual variations on the ball-and-cup technique, and I'm not sure what Stillpoints adds, but in at least some cases it works better than the others.

having had high hopes for finite element cerapucs under my CA TT, I can tell you that they were not much better than the stock spikes. Stillpoints on the other hand made a significant, easy to hear sound quality improvement. There is no beating around the bush...you get what you pay for...the others out there are just pretenders, imo.

 

[PeterA]

I think the Stillpoints work primarily in the same way Finite Elements, FIM, Rollerblocks and Aurios work, the ball-and-cup example from Gary's article, which also applies to the built-in bases in some Genesis and NOLA speakers. All these different products have individual variations on the ball-and-cup technique, and I'm not sure what Stillpoints adds, but in at least some cases it works better than the others.

That's quite interesting. The interface between the Mini 2 and its stand is a marble-sized steel ball in two cups. But unlike some of the products you mention, there is no detectible movement between the speaker itself and the stand. I suspect, and I may be quite wrong, that because the original Mini was offered with the stand as a $5,000 option, it was possible to buy the speaker alone and place it either on the user's own stand, a bookshelf, or some other support. Separating the stand from the speaker allowed one to buy one or both units and to ship the package in smaller, multiple boxes. I had been under the impression that the captive ball bearing actually couples the speaker to the base because of this lack of detectible movement. Sort of like the effect of a spike. Two distinct points of contact with no sideways/horizontal movement. But reviews at the time state that the speaker is actually de-coupled from the stand. I'm somewhat confused by the distinction, but perhaps that is a topic for another thread.

The Stillpoints and the Rollerblocks et al clearly are decoupling devices and allow for some movement.

 

[rbbert]

If your speakers are decoupled from the stand it would make no sense whatsoever to try to decouple the stand from the floor

 

[ack]

but if they are on bearings and frictionless how can you say that adequate weight is needed to activate the device.

Frictionless?? I have never seen frictionless surfaces, have you? You'll probably find them at room temperature after we finally get super conductivity.

 

[PeterA]

If your speakers are decoupled from the stand it would make no sense whatsoever to try to decouple the stand from the floor

I agree completely and perhaps this is why Rockitman and others have suggested placing them under the speakers themselves. But unlike other devices which clearly do decouple components, my speakers don't move at all relative to the stand when pushed in any direction, so I view them, perhaps incorrectly, as being coupled to the stand. My understanding is that the Magico ball-in-cups interface is designed to drain energy down away from the speaker and to then transfer it into the mass loaded stand which is in turn coupled to the floor.

The Stillpoint approach is the opposite. I just rewatched the Ultra video on the Stillpoints website. The Ultra 5s are designed to draw vibrational energy away from the component and then to convert it to heat, not to transfer that energy into the floor (or stand in my case). The Ultras isolate the component from the surface on which it is placed. The sales rep states that the devices don't transfer the energy to the floor. This lessens the vibrational energy going into the floor. The result is less floor movement and less need for traditional acoustic treatment, according to the video.

Two different approaches.

 

[scouter]

Here is Magico's newsletter regarding spikes- last paragraph copied.
The Laws of Physics
Magico has received a tremendous number of inquiries from both consumers and dealer/ distributors regarding spikes. There are a few things that we believe our partners must know. To start, Magico engineers an extremely rigid sealed-box cabinet. This is one of the many technologies which create the Magico advantage. The premium-quality stainless steel spike systems, which are provided with every speaker system are designed and engineered to exhaust unwanted stored energy but also to set proper height. Every element of the supplied spikes, from the material choice, size, threading and thread-depth, are engineered into the speakers from the beginning stages. The spike systems are as important as any other part of Magico speakers and must be properly coupled to the surface they are placed on. We do not encourage the use of any other feet to couple your speakers to the floor.

 

[rbbert]

Then you are back to the whole couple vs. decouple argument. Gary's long multi-part post discusses that in some detail. I'm not sure what it means that only Genesis and NOLA (AFAIK) specifically recommend decoupling and include it in their best speakers. I do know that spikes into a typical home's suspended wood floor aren't doing much "coupling", nor are they decoupling (i.e., the worst of both words). I also know that many speakers whose manufacturers recommend and/or supply spikes often in fact sound better decoupled. So I'd take Magico's comments with a few grains of salt.

 

[Barry2013]

Because of the many enthusiastic reports like this, I actually tried them on top of my Pass XA160.5 amps which already sit on Vibraplanes. Surprisingly, I did not hear a difference. I regret not trying them under the amps, but then the hassle of deflating and moving the 150 lb Vibraplanes plus 136 lb ballast plates out of the way was too much to contemplate. It is also unclear to me from reading this thread if they should be screwed into the existing threads for the amp feet or if they should be moved around without the threads to find the best spot. Some say flush against the component is fine, others not. Some users say to experiment, but others say they must be screwed in with a "credit card" gap to the bottom of the component. Perhaps I will get them back from my friend and play some more under components
It would be interesting to hear from those members who used to own Stillpoints. A few had been used under speakers. Unfortunately, I suspect former owners with dissenting opinions don't feel welcome to share their views.

Do not fit Stillpoints to the feet of source components. A real no no. Place under the base of the source in a three or four configuration at least an inch or two in from the edges and experiment with the precise placing to get the best result. Make sure there is a small gap between the two pieces of the individual Stillpoints and level the source.
I have 3 Ultra SSs under each of my Carmels and they work a treat. Better resolution and transparency and cleaner bass.At Munich last year I met the Stillpoints European distributor told him how good they were on my speakers. He said he wished I would convey that to YG.
The moral of the story is clearly to try them even if the speaker manufacturer concerned does not recommend them. They seem to benefit the vast majority of speakers but like everything else in life there are always exceptions.

 

[asiufy]

Here is Magico's newsletter regarding spikes- last paragraph copied.
The Laws of Physics
Magico has received a tremendous number of inquiries from both consumers and dealer/ distributors regarding spikes. There are a few things that we believe our partners must know. To start, Magico engineers an extremely rigid sealed-box cabinet. This is one of the many technologies which create the Magico advantage. The premium-quality stainless steel spike systems, which are provided with every speaker system are designed and engineered to exhaust unwanted stored energy but also to set proper height. Every element of the supplied spikes, from the material choice, size, threading and thread-depth, are engineered into the speakers from the beginning stages. The spike systems are as important as any other part of Magico speakers and must be properly coupled to the surface they are placed on. We do not encourage the use of any other feet to couple your speakers to the floor.

Thanks! This is exactly what I got...


alexandre

 

[MadFloyd]

Anyone have tips on removing stuck Stillpoint adapters?

 

[rockitman]

Anyone have tips on removing stuck Stillpoint adapters?

Vice grips

 

[zztop7]

Anyone have tips on removing stuck Stillpoint adapters?

Yes - PM me if it involves stuck/galled threads.

zz,

 

[DaveyF]

This from someone with no actual application of stillpoint's ultra's in his system. Your conjecture is certainly entertaining with little to back it up. I have them under and on top of all components in my audio chain. It was done systematically and in every instance they improved the sound. I am sure you can find a few instances where they are not beneficial, like suspended turntables... Other than that, they are a win. Their effect is cumulative.

It is truly a shame that any time anybody happens to have an alternative experience or opinion to yours that you get defensive. Too bad that you are NOT open enough in your beliefs that there could possibly be another experience and/or result to the one that you know. The fact that I don't own Stillpoint ultra's in my system is irrelevant. My friends experience with them and now Peter A's, is sufficient. Whether you like it or not, there are people that have different views and experiences to yours....such as the FACT that I and many others can EASILY hear the ringing in your Wilson speakers tweeter and you cannot....which unfortunately for you doesn't NOT make it so....just because you choose to not believe it.

 

[rockitman]

The fact that I don't own Stillpoint ultra's in my system is irrelevant.

That says it all. Your opinion is irrelevant to this thread incidentally named.."Incredible Stillpoints".