The new Russian subminiature tubes are far better than the ecc40.
Introducing the LampizatOr Poseidon DAC
- Thread starter Lukasz "Lampizator" Fikus
- Start date
I for one have trouble relating to a simple one-dimensional characterization of the sound of different Lampi DACs on a chart like this. For example, a DAC like the Pacific that uses DHT tubes like 300Bs or 45s is fundamentally incomparable with pentode based DACs like the Horizon. This is not to say that the Horizon is not “better” in some dimensions than the Pacific. Enough folks have had the Pacific and then moved on to the Horizon that I believe at some level the Horizon is “better”. But at the same time a 1-d characterization like this doesn’t capture the multidimensional space that characterizes tube based DACs.
For example, leaving aside power considerations, I own both hugely powerful pentode tube monoblocks and DHT SET amps. To me, the two are not comparable. SETs offer a tonal purity than no pentode amp can never match. But SET amps are highly limited in power and cannot drive most speakers well. So if you own horns, SET amps are ideal. But if you own electrostatics, SET amps are out. I know DACs are different, but I’m using this as a crude analogy. DHT Lampi DACs live in a parallel universe to pentode Lampi DACs. Just like SET amps live in a parallel universe.
I love this post. I've been feeling exactly the same way but didn't want to offend anyone.
I too have direct experience of high quality DHT amps Vs pentode amps and there is really no contest, if you have high resolution speakers. DHT every time. Same for preamps in my experience, a 45 or 46 DHT preamp sounds superior to any 9 pin preamp I've tried.
This is why I feel very wary of investing in a Poseidon over one of the DHT offerings like the Pacific. I just don't see how I could prefer ANY pentodes to the 46 globe which is my favorite tube.
I guess a visit to my local Lampi dealer and have a listen to both side by side is the solution.
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I might chime in here as I'm fully aware and understand your standpoint and @godofwealth as myself have full DHT based amplification - 10Y (and variants) in pre and 845 in power amps. Also massively love the presentation of 45s/46. I had entire line of Lampi DACs with DHTs (Big7, GG1, GG2, Pac) and now Horizon while I also had Poseidon in the chain for a while.
My humble opinion (with zero technical background) is that we cannot mix use of DHTs in amplification and what they deliver there and the way how Lukasz is using them in his DACs and what is the outcome of their use in DACs. Same goes for the pentodes or double triodes and here at least in Horizon, Poseidon and Baltic 3/4 double triodes are the ones making the biggest SQ impact and character.
But as You righty wrote above - that is the best course of action for a proper comparison.
@christoph has a lot to say on this topic as well, as he's heavily into DHT amplification in his main rig, while having at his place multiple Lampi DACs in other systems
A tube itself can’t make something good. The Mayer 46 is my favorite poweramp, unfortunately it can drive very few full range speakers apart from Pnoes. As for 45s, there are many power amps based on 45s and some are good some aren’t. The special EML globe annoversary 45s are excellent but not necessarily the best tube in the Lampi. I like KR power amps but their 45 preamp is a weak link.
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Ouch I have the KR 45 preamp, although I use 46 globes with adapters not the KR 45 which isn't very good. Personally I think it's a wonderful preamp although I'd like a Thomas Mayer 10Y one day.
Ok, I haven't heard it with the 46. I did not like it with the KR 45 nor with the EMLs
Lukasz' chart seems to be just his generalized, overall sonic ranking, and Lukasz, more than most, appreciates the nuanced sonic differences, and in his defense, if you dig around the Lampi Poland site there are other charts and descriptors that get more into the details. Also, keep in mind, I don't think WBF members are necessarily representative of the majority of persons in the audio buyer world. I think there are many audio enthusiasts that don't join audio fora and get into the weeds and roll tubes like we do, so, I think for those persons, the chart could be helpful.
FWIW, the chart aligns with my findings from Lampi's I've owned (Golden Atlantic, B7, GG2, GG3 with 11-P, and Pac2).
Anyway, I've never subscribed to "newer is always better" and I personally appreciate it when a manufacturer doesn't simply (dishonestly) create new models just to generate more sales, telling you last year's model now sucks and this new one blows the old one out of the water. If you watch interviews with Lukasz, he isn't ditching DHT because he thinks pentodes or triodes are superior- not at all. He still loves his DHT models. Also, some that have owned Pac and upgraded to Horizon, never heard their Pac with E11-P, or more recently discovered tubes, like PT14, Telefunken C3G, etc., used with TP adapters. For me, some of these more recently discovered tubes are very much component-level sonic upgrades. The changes are not subtle.
Me, I'm a DHT fan for life, but, I'll always keep an open mind. I don't think Poseidon would be an upgrade for me, not when I've maxed out my Pac2 with just the right tubes, but, I'm guessing from comments from an audio friend group, some of whom owned maxed out Pac2 and now own Horizon, Horizon would certainly be an upgrade.
FWIW, the chart aligns with my findings from Lampi's I've owned (Golden Atlantic, B7, GG2, GG3 with 11-P, and Pac2).
Anyway, I've never subscribed to "newer is always better" and I personally appreciate it when a manufacturer doesn't simply (dishonestly) create new models just to generate more sales, telling you last year's model now sucks and this new one blows the old one out of the water. If you watch interviews with Lukasz, he isn't ditching DHT because he thinks pentodes or triodes are superior- not at all. He still loves his DHT models. Also, some that have owned Pac and upgraded to Horizon, never heard their Pac with E11-P, or more recently discovered tubes, like PT14, Telefunken C3G, etc., used with TP adapters. For me, some of these more recently discovered tubes are very much component-level sonic upgrades. The changes are not subtle.
Me, I'm a DHT fan for life, but, I'll always keep an open mind. I don't think Poseidon would be an upgrade for me, not when I've maxed out my Pac2 with just the right tubes, but, I'm guessing from comments from an audio friend group, some of whom owned maxed out Pac2 and now own Horizon, Horizon would certainly be an upgrade.
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Golum-
Too quick to forget about successfully running single/double triodes in the TRP!
In North America, it starts at $27K (single ended, no VC). Poseidon is $25K.
Never tried nor heard so I can't comment (single/double triodes in TRP)
I don‘t know if I would move from Pac2 to Poseidon either, but Horizon is a step up. I owned both for long enough to say that it is better in every way. I think anyone who moved from Pac to Horizon would agree. I recently heard Pac2 vs Horizon and it didn’t change that IMHO.
PS I really loved Lukasz’s metric in his interview with Ron at Axpona, where he said something about it taking him 30 seconds to lose himself into the music with the Pac and less the 5 with the Horizon. The “lost in music” metric should reign over audiophile discussions IMO. Way better than the typical jargon…
Prior to moving on to the Poseidon (pending delivery), I've had a custom built pre-amp using 6 subminiature line stage tubes and 8 subminiature phono pre-amp tubes for 22 years. It is quiet and robust sounding. Replaced two noisy phono tubes and a line stage tube after 20 years/about 20,000 hours use. Beats the EAR pre-amps (912, 864).
More than happy to welcome a new DAC in my house
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