Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[Rensselaer]

IMO Peter fully answered to it in his long thread - he found new friends and a new way of listening to stereo and he preferred it. This is a subjective hobby involving preference, we can pick our poison. IMO the social part has a large weight in the high-end.

Surely we can speculate - would he had made the same move twenty years ago?

What about you answering my question? What was it that caused you to buy your last high end product? What was it that you bought? Why did you come to the conclusion that you needed to buy it? Was it appearance, bling appeal? Design innovation? Just to replace a broken item? Or did it make a real difference in sound quality? And if it made a great difference in sound quality, what exactly was that difference (here there be demons me thinks)?

 

[PeterA]

What about you answering my question? What was it that caused you to buy your last high end product? What was it that you bought? Why did you come to the conclusion that you needed to buy it? Was it appearance, bling appeal? Design innovation? Just to replace a broken item? Or did it make a real difference in sound quality? And if it made a great difference in sound quality, what exactly was that difference (here there be demons me thinks)?

Hello Mark, I’ve been distracted, but here is my attempt to answer your very interesting question.

The last component I bought was a new Lamm LP1 phono stage. It replaced my Lamm LP 2.1 deluxe. I keep that as a spare and for a possible second all Lamm system.

It sounds trite, but the reason I bought this new phono stage is because I could. It is the flagship product in the signature series of my electronics suite. I heard it in my dealer’s system and read some excellent reviews, but I did not do a direct comparison to the lower model. Had I not liked it after the direct comparison in my own system, I could have returned it for a full refund.

It was immediately clear to me that with this LP1 in the system, the music was presented more naturally to me in the room. I enjoyed listening to my records more. It was as simple as that. I also took comfort in knowing that it was the second of three pieces I’m looking for to complete my system. The AS 2000 was the first piece. This phono stage is the second piece. The third piece remains an elusive cartridge. If and when I find that cartridge, my system will be complete and there will be nowhere for me to go with my system except for a bigger and better listening room.

This new phono stage was one more piece in the puzzle to get me toward my goal. For me, the system is a pure luxury and selfish act. It has nothing to do with what other people think. I do it because I want to and because I can.

Edit: Link to my listening impressions of my new LP1, post 4132. This will give a more detailed reason for my decision. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/natural-sound.32867/page-207

 

[Rensselaer]

Hello Mark, I’ve been distracted, but here is my attempt to answer your very interesting question.

The last component I bought was a new Lamm LP1 phono stage. It replaced my Lamm LP 2.1 deluxe. I keep that as a spare and for a possible second all Lamm system.

It sounds trite, but the reason I bought this new phono stage is because I could. It is the flagship product in the signature series of my electronics suite. I heard it in my dealer’s system and read Tim’s excellent review, but I did not do a direct comparison to the lower model. Had I not liked it after the direct comparison in my own system, I could have returned it for a full refund.

It was immediately clear to me that with this LP1 in the system, the music was presented more naturally to me in the room. I enjoyed listening to my records more. It was as simple as that. I also took comfort in knowing that it was the second of three pieces I’m looking for to complete my system. The AS 2000 was the first piece. This phono stage is the second piece. The third piece remains an elusive cartridge. If and when I find that cartridge, my system will be complete and there will be nowhere for me to go with my system except for a bigger and better listening room.

This new phono stage was one more piece in the puzzle to get me toward my goal. For me, the system is a pure luxury and selfish act. It has nothing to do with what other people think. I do it because I want to and because I can.

I had directed that question to Microstrip, but no matter. I appreciate your honest reply.

I said in an earlier posting that the silver Albedo Metamorphosis MkII Interconnect between my Ypsilon phono stage and Otomon 211 (Ongaku tribute) SET cleaned up the sound making it seem as if veils were removed, getting me closer to the recorded event. Enough said, I don’t want to be attacked for “misusing” hi fi reviewers terms incorrectly.

I have another example of an upgrade that I was delighted with. I changed the compression drivers on my Altec A7 speakers from 902-8b “ferrite” magnet compression drivers to 802 AlNiCo magnet compression drivers, copies of originals by Great Plains Audio.

The experts claim “that” change should make no difference. Altec did not switch from Alnico to ferrite because they were cheaper to make, but because there was a Civil War in Zaire (the sole source of Cobalt). The magnetic force was exactly the same else they would have to re-engineer the entire system. Alnico’s advantage is greater immunity to flux modulation and thermal stability, but ferrite can do that too with a copper ring around the magnet and ventilation.

Be that as it may, as soon as I switched speakers I sensed an improvement. What? I can’t say really, it just seemed more organic, real, less electromechanical loud speaker. Does that make sense?

I get the same when I roll tubes/valves. They are all interchangeable so shouldn’t be that different in sound, regardless of when or where they were made, however…When the right ones are put in, you just know it is better, and without judging frequency response, sound stage, bass extension and all that often discussed BS.

 

[PeterA]

I had directed that question to Microstrip, but no matter. I appreciate your honest reply.

Yes, I know. But you asked the general question earlier up the thread and I had wanted to answer it but could not until today.

People don’t always want to answer direct questions. We will see if Fransisco gets around to it.

 

[WBF Team]

Notice - some posts have been removed. We would like to remind our members to comment on the thread subject, and not make comments that are personal in nature. That helps no one and does not advance anything. It only serves to create a hostile atmosphere, which is unacceptable.

 

[microstrip]

What about you answering my question? What was it that caused you to buy your last high end product? What was it that you bought? Why did you come to the conclusion that you needed to buy it? Was it appearance, bling appeal? Design innovation? Just to replace a broken item? Or did it make a real difference in sound quality? And if it made a great difference in sound quality, what exactly was that difference (here there be demons me thinks)?

Well, due to a reallocation and a new, larger but very different listening space, I have now mostly sold some equipment and waiting to manage to sell some other, in order to finance a future acquisition ...

Any one following or digging in the forum will know that my last buy was the Lamm system (ML3-LL1) - I addressed it in a separate thread. I bough it after reading about SE's and Lamm's in WBF from WBF members, as I become curious to try an alternative approach to stereo listening and it was being sold at a nice price. IMO the only way to get a proper experience with equipment is bringing it for a long time in my room. Lamm was considered a top in its class and theoretically compatible with my system I got them.

It was a great difference in sound, surely, I had plenty of enthusiasm for sometime, but finally found that it was not exactly what I wanted and still preferred my old gear. Also, considering I listen everyday and Lamm's need a couple of hours to sound optimum (as almost all any tube gear, BTW ) some other aspects, such as logistics , cost of operation and service terms became shining my purchase. But probably it was the fact that this top system, in my personnel opinion, was not able to do justice to my top digital recordings that made my decision to return to my old push pull powerful tubes.

BTW, during this period I also got the Taiko Extreme server - I posted many times on why and what I got from it it in the Taiko Extreme thread.

As soon as I recapitalize my high-end funds I will make two purchases - probably I will comment on them in WBF!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

What would be nice, even helpful, is if you (not Peter alone, but the entire body of well informed experts on this forum) would consider what exactly caused you to last part with serious money on your system? What change in SQ (or show factor for those lovers of bling out there) was it that you couldn’t say no to? What was it about the device/performance thereof that would make you spend it again and swear that the high-end is worth it?

i saw this a couple days ago and it seemed like a well considered question, but like Peter i needed some time to give it a proper attempt at an answer. and like Peter in his system thread, i've generally opened separate threads or jumped on existing threads, to explain my thinking and then answer questions and even challenges to my acquisitions. so these thoughts have been at least touched on prior....sometimes in depth.

every system effort has a different personal flavor. we are all different. in my case; my room and signal path gear have been settled for many years, and i had a long term plan to upgrade my sources which had started a few years prior but i wanted to complete it right when i retired in mid 2023. so going forward i would just enjoy it, which happily is what i have done.

as background; most of my acquisitions all happened around the same time and are listed in a thread i started in June of 2024 about my changes. that thread does not include the tape deck changes i had made in Feb 23', but those are also really in the same vein and time frame. since then i've really only made one change; i sold a cartridge which funded an upgrade on my Durand Tosca to the Limited Edition version.

i don't want to try and get deep into the thinking behind all those moves in this thread. i view all these changes as part of the same whole. and each one is documented in threads so anyone can go and read about my thinking; but for here i will choose two i see as one; adding the Wadax Reference Server Power Supply and Akasa DC cables to take me to Level 4 Wadax. these are pieces i knew were coming for a year or so prior to when they actually happened.

in both cases i was able to hear/demo them in my system prior to finalizing the purchase. so saying no after i heard them was up to me. i would have had a shipping expense for the Power Supply but nominal in the context of the purchase price. what caused me to part with serious money to own these items? i listen to lots of digital music in my system. average 3-4 hours a day every day when i'm home. it is what i do. i want my digital to bring me analog level enjoyment.......as close as possible. i felt strongly enough about what i heard from both these items to easily decide to own them. it made the music more real in very solid ways. this was not any hard to hear thing. these attributes jumped out at me. with the Power Supply the music attained a power and grip from digital, a weight, and scale, an ease, that was just not there with other digital that compared to my vinyl. with the Akasa cables it was the realism and continuousness, the touch and flow, the tonal textures and rich timbres, and fully analog way with the music. and the every day pinch-me feeling of never getting use to how it connected me to the music. and now a year later it's still delivering crazy real music.

both pieces i expect compliment each other, and are additive together.

i would buy both of those products again in a minute if i had to decide again if i had the means. they have fully lived up to my expectations. maybe someone else would not have the same priorities for their choices?

 

[Lee]

i saw this a couple days ago and it seemed like a well considered question, but like Peter i needed some time to give it a proper attempt at an answer. and like Peter in his system thread, i've generally opened separate threads or jumped on existing threads, to explain my thinking and then answer questions and even challenges to my acquisitions. so these thoughts have been at least touched on prior....sometimes in depth.

every system effort has a different personal flavor. we are all different. in my case; my room and signal path gear have been settled for many years, and i had a long term plan to upgrade my sources which had started a few years prior but i wanted to complete it right when i retired in mid 2023. so going forward i would just enjoy it, which happily is what i have done.

as background; most of my acquisitions all happened around the same time and are listed in a thread i started in June of 2024 about my changes. that thread does not include the tape deck changes i had made in Feb 23', but those are also really in the same vein and time frame. since then i've really only made one change; i sold a cartridge which funded an upgrade on my Durand Tosca to the Limited Edition version.

i don't want to try and get deep into the thinking behind all those moves in this thread. i view all these changes as part of the same whole. and each one is documented in threads so anyone can go and read about my thinking; but for here i will choose two i see as one; adding the Wadax Reference Server Power Supply and Akasa DC cables to take me to Level 4 Wadax. these are pieces i knew were coming for a year or so prior to when they actually happened.

in both cases i was able to hear/demo them in my system prior to finalizing the purchase. so saying no after i heard them was up to me. i would have had a shipping expense for the Power Supply but nominal in the context of the purchase price. what caused me to part with serious money to own these items? i listen to lots of digital music in my system. average 3-4 hours a day every day when i'm home. it is what i do. i want my digital to bring me analog level enjoyment.......as close as possible. i felt strongly enough about what i heard from both these items to easily decide to own them. it made the music more real in very solid ways. this was not any hard to hear thing. these attributes jumped out at me. with the Power Supply the music attained a power and grip from digital, a weight, and scale, an ease, that was just not there with other digital that compared to my vinyl. with the Akasa cables it was the realism and continuousness, the touch and flow, the tonal textures and rich timbres, and fully analog way with the music. and the every day pinch-me feeling of never getting use to how it connected me to the music. and now a year later it's still delivering crazy real music.

both pieces i expect compliment each other, and are additive together.

i would buy both of those products again in a minute if i had to decide again if i had the means. they have fully lived up to my expectations. maybe someone else would not have the same priorities for their choices?

Great post.

Recently I have been experimenting with noise control devices and cables. In one set of cables, there was a wonderful forward sound to the midrange that was addictive. But in another case, there was not quite as much midrange fullness but more resolution. I love both sets but at times I miss one attribute or another.

One of my friends loves the extra resolution and prefers that. Another friend finds it a shade too clean and prefers the more forward and warmer cable.

I know which one I prefer but who says I am right?

Fortunatelt at the highest end of the hobby, there is less compromise and you can get the resolution without sacrificing musicality.

 

[Rensselaer]

i saw this a couple days ago and it seemed like a well considered question, but like Peter i needed some time to give it a proper attempt at an answer. and like Peter in his system thread, i've generally opened separate threads or jumped on existing threads, to explain my thinking and then answer questions and even challenges to my acquisitions. so these thoughts have been at least touched on prior....sometimes in depth.

every system effort has a different personal flavor. we are all different. in my case; my room and signal path gear have been settled for many years, and i had a long term plan to upgrade my sources which had started a few years prior but i wanted to complete it right when i retired in mid 2023. so going forward i would just enjoy it, which happily is what i have done.

as background; most of my acquisitions all happened around the same time and are listed in a thread i started in June of 2024 about my changes. that thread does not include the tape deck changes i had made in Feb 23', but those are also really in the same vein and time frame. since then i've really only made one change; i sold a cartridge which funded an upgrade on my Durand Tosca to the Limited Edition version.

i don't want to try and get deep into the thinking behind all those moves in this thread. i view all these changes as part of the same whole. and each one is documented in threads so anyone can go and read about my thinking; but for here i will choose two i see as one; adding the Wadax Reference Server Power Supply and Akasa DC cables to take me to Level 4 Wadax. these are pieces i knew were coming for a year or so prior to when they actually happened.

in both cases i was able to hear/demo them in my system prior to finalizing the purchase. so saying no after i heard them was up to me. i would have had a shipping expense for the Power Supply but nominal in the context of the purchase price. what caused me to part with serious money to own these items? i listen to lots of digital music in my system. average 3-4 hours a day every day when i'm home. it is what i do. i want my digital to bring me analog level enjoyment.......as close as possible. i felt strongly enough about what i heard from both these items to easily decide to own them. it made the music more real in very solid ways. this was not any hard to hear thing. these attributes jumped out at me. with the Power Supply the music attained a power and grip from digital, a weight, and scale, an ease, that was just not there with other digital that compared to my vinyl. with the Akasa cables it was the realism and continuousness, the touch and flow, the tonal textures and rich timbres, and fully analog way with the music. and the every day pinch-me feeling of never getting use to how it connected me to the music. and now a year later it's still delivering crazy real music.

both pieces i expect compliment each other, and are additive together.

i would buy both of those products again in a minute if i had to decide again if i had the means. they have fully lived up to my expectations. maybe someone else would not have the same priorities for their choices?

Thank you for sharing this. I have a question stemming from my total ignorance so my apologies if I offend with it, but you say the level 4 Wadax gets you very close to analogue. I think I read the price of Wadax somewhere and it was a lot of money (to me anyway) so I ask, why not spend that money on reel to reel tapes and great vinyl pressings? Is it because the music you enjoy is only available in digital?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Thank you for sharing this. I have a question stemming from my total ignorance so my apologies if I offend with it, but you say the level 4 Wadax gets you very close to analogue. I think I read the price of Wadax somewhere and it was a lot of money to me anyway, so I ask, why not spend that money on reel to reel tapes and great vinyl pressings? Is it because the music you enjoy is only available in digital?

i have 12,000 records. and listen to plenty of vinyl each week. yes; i do listen to more digital for various reasons. but likely i listen to as much vinyl as anyone and have lots of high level vinyl gear. i have a huge collection of freshly cleaned pristine classical vinyl that i have not listened to. i will never run out of great vinyl that i love. if i never spend another nickel on vinyl i'm good. are there desirable pressings out there i might like? of course.

but.......i.......don't have any vinyl needs that i don't have handled. that box is checked with a big X.

reel to reel tape is a completely different case. why? 1--high quality media access, 2---ease of use, 3---listening culture, 4---tech support.

there are very few people that have really large tape collections. enough to do tape hours a day but not get tired of the depth of music. and also have that tape collection sound better than top level vinyl. so thousands of tapes mostly better than my vinyl. and having a great deck and high level heads and tape preamp. it would take a lifetime of effort focused just on that..

while i was a very early tape adapter and always have had nice tapes and good decks; it was always something more like a $500 bottle of Single Malt. something to be savored but never the main course. brought out for the demo track. and as tapes got more expensive i pulled back and got much more selective.

tape can be something more sensible as the special thing than vinyl. a great tape deck and a hundred (or 30) tapes is a much smaller outlay than a great turntable set-up and thousands of great pressings. it's the path Ron has taken. but tape as the main thing is a hard thing to do for an hours a day listener.

i would agree that the best tape rules. but our daily music listening rules for me = (1) mostly great digital + great vinyl. we can have an in depth discussion why my digital listening is more dominant than my vinyl if you like. and how that drove my decision tree.

 

[bonzo75]

IMO the only way to get a proper experience with equipment is bringing it for a long time in my room.

This is incorrect. The only way to get proper experience is to evaluate a component paired with suitable gear. You never had the Lamm paired with a suitable speaker, despite being warned about it. So it was not a proper experience, and you put it on sale immediately.

So to answer Remsellaer’s question, you bought the amp because you read favourable comments about it, but did not buy the type of a speaker that those were giving the favourable comments were using. So it was a an impulse toy purchase.

 

[PeterA]

Great post.

Recently I have been experimenting with noise control devices and cables. In one set of cables, there was a wonderful forward sound to the midrange that was addictive. But in another case, there was not quite as much midrange fullness but more resolution. I love both sets but at times I miss one attribute or another.

One of my friends loves the extra resolution and prefers that. Another friend finds it a shade too clean and prefers the more forward and warmer cable.

I know which one I prefer but who says I am right?

Fortunatelt at the highest end of the hobby, there is less compromise and you can get the resolution without sacrificing musicality.

Lee, if you like the “wonderful mid range that was addictive” from one cable, and you like the more resolution of the other cable, why not keep searching for a cable that gives you both? Or am I misunderstanding your post here?

 

[PeterA]

This is incorrect. The only way to get proper experience is to evaluate a component paired with suitable gear. You never had the Lamm paired with a suitable speaker, despite being warned about it. So it was not a proper experience, and you put it on sale immediately.

So to answer Remsellaer’s question, you bought the amp because you read favourable comments about it, but did not buy the type of a speaker that those were giving the favourable comments were using. So it was a an impulse toy purchase.

This is the impression that I got from reading along during that period. I’m not sure how well served the system was from the way the Lamm boxes were arranged on the floor. I am also not sure what cables he had with the Lamm gear, but if it was Transparent audio cables, I would suggest that was not a good pairing. To hear what Lamm is capable of doing, you must have an appropriate speaker and you can not color the sound with the wrong supporting gear. Just my controversial opinion.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

This is the impression that I got from reading along during that period. I’m not sure how well served the system was from the way the Lamm boxes were arranged on the floor. I am also not sure what cables he had with the Lamm gear, but if it was Transparent audio cables, I would suggest that was not a good pairing. To hear what Lamm is capable of doing, you must have an appropriate speaker and you can not color the sound with the wrong supporting gear. Just my controversial opinion.

so we continue to pump the narrative that Lamm gear can only be judged with certain speakers. yet we know other Lamm ML3 users using those speakers and being very happy.

why don't you bother Steve Williams with all this stuff? and explain to him how it's not working? he uses his own special cables. are they Lamm certified? yet myself and Francisco just did not prefer what we heard to alternatives. neither of us disliked the Lamm. we simply liked something else more for our own particular reasons.

maybe you two could issue validity badges for when gear gets sold and the reasons are legit so we can keep things properly approved.

This is incorrect. The only way to get proper experience is to evaluate a component paired with suitable gear. You never had the Lamm paired with a suitable speaker, despite being warned about it. So it was not a proper experience, and you put it on sale immediately.

So to answer Remsellaer’s question, you bought the amp because you read favourable comments about it, but did not buy the type of a speaker that those were giving the favourable comments were using. So it was a an impulse toy purchase.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Great post.

Recently I have been experimenting with noise control devices and cables. In one set of cables, there was a wonderful forward sound to the midrange that was addictive. But in another case, there was not quite as much midrange fullness but more resolution. I love both sets but at times I miss one attribute or another.

One of my friends loves the extra resolution and prefers that. Another friend finds it a shade too clean and prefers the more forward and warmer cable.

I know which one I prefer but who says I am right?

Fortunatelt at the highest end of the hobby, there is less compromise and you can get the resolution without sacrificing musicality.

the idea is that systems and cables are curated as neutral and natural sounding and boosts to performance are without colorations to be negotiated. the balancing act of pieces each with a different coloration is a lose-lose proposition.....reducing musical essence along the way. so just avoid it to begin with.

in my system journey the only gear i've had and kept with tonal artifacts have been the very, very, occasional cartridge. i have been given cables to try that were colored, but they never made the cut.

i have experienced resonance treatments that went too far into a sense of warming or thinning. too much softness or deadening. the system spoke clearly about it and i changed it.

 

[PeterA]

so we continue to pump the narrative that Lamm gear can only be judged with certain speakers. yet we know other Lamm ML3 users using those speakers and being very happy.

why don't you bother Steve Williams with all this stuff? and explain to him how it's not working? he uses his own special cables. are they Lamm certified? yet myself and Francisco just did not prefer what we heard to alternatives. neither of us disliked the Lamm. we simply liked something else more for our own particular reasons.

maybe you two could issue validity badges for when gear gets sold and the reasons are legit so we can keep things properly approved.

It’s not about that Mike. All amps, not just Lamm, must be auditioned with proper matching speakers. David, who knows more about Lamm than anyone besides Vladimir, told Francisco they were the wrong speakers for that amplifier. Of course it’s just an opinion. I’ve heard those amplifiers sound completely effortless and explosive with speakers that were 115 dB sensitive. I also heard those amplifiers sound pretty incredible on massive Karma speakers but they were not as effortless.

Speaker amp matching is a thing. I also understand that Francisco simply didn’t like them and sold them so no big deal.

Regarding the cables, I’m just saying that I lived with Transparent cables for a long time, but they imported a strong character on the sound. Were they recalibrated for the Lamm gear? I think I read that they were not in Francisco’s case but I might be mistaken. Regardless, in my opinion, the Lamm needs very neutral cables for them to sound their best.

This forum is for sharing opinions, and I understand that yours is quite different. It’s why we all end up with very different systems.

 

[PeterA]

the idea is that systems and cables are curated as neutral and natural sounding and boosts to performance are without colorations to be negotiated. the balancing act of pieces each with a different coloration is a lose-lose proposition.....reducing musical essence along the way. so just avoid it to begin with.

I agree with this. Compensating for one piece of gear that is colored with another piece of gear that is colored or with colored cables, is not a very efficient approach to system building. Sometimes though, it is what one must do given the gear he has already chosen. And some people follow this approach that seems to work for them. It’s pretty hard to find neutral and natural sounding components, in part because it is difficult to assess the contribution of the rest of the system in which a component is placed.

 

[tima]

so we continue to pump the narrative that Lamm gear can only be judged with certain speakers. yet we know other Lamm ML3 users using those speakers and being very happy.

Isn't that the case with every amp? Evaluating a speaker by itself, independent of a specific amplifier, or vice versa, is a fool's errand.

maybe you two could issue validity badges for when gear gets sold and the reasons are legit so we can keep things properly approved.

And here I thought you'd mellowed out since retirement.

 

[Ron Resnick]

it was a an impulse toy purchase.

You say this like it is a bad thing.

 

[Lee]

the idea is that systems and cables are curated as neutral and natural sounding and boosts to performance are without colorations to be negotiated. the balancing act of pieces each with a different coloration is a lose-lose proposition.....reducing musical essence along the way. so just avoid it to begin with.

in my system journey the only gear i've had and kept with tonal artifacts have been the very, very, occasional cartridge. i have been given cables to try that were colored, but they never made the cut.

i have experienced resonance treatments that went too far into a sense of warming or thinning. too much softness or deadening. the system spoke clearly about it and i changed it.

I agree on the goal of cable neutrality. We are talking here about minor shading of resolution versus warmth. Both are world class cables. I think a 100% neutral cable doesn’t exist but we are closing in on it. I am envisioning a spectrum of sound from warm to detailed and neutral in the middle. For these two cables I am talking a smidge to the warm side of neutral and a smidge to detailed side of neutral.