Is "Walking Up On Stage" a Sonic Attribute?

[bonzo75]

Because "do you feel like you are at a live event" is a broader, more holistic question than the narrow sensation or attribute I am raising in the opening post.

i was not referring to your opening post but your last one which seemed broader

 

[Amir]

These are the key factors for the subject:
- recording technique / Record information
Some record techniques like QSound (albums like Amused to Death (Roger Waters)) can give you 180 degrees wide stage, not all stereo digital records are good in this regard
- Multi channel audio system
Some techniques in digital sound processing can produce better presence in room by adding more speakers in room
- perfect stereo speaker positioning in room

If the audio system is good enough for producing perfect sense of presence then you will hear that.

 

[Tim Link]

It seems to me that if the system is producing a very convincing soundstage, you could get the impression that the sounds are really being generated in an acoustic space that is right out there in front of you, giving you the impression that the opportunity is there to walk right up into the performers. Of course you'll run into the wall if you try it. I think everybody's seen their cat walk into the sliding glass door after it's been cleaned.
I've never had a system that could get me to that point where I got a strange feeling of the stage really being up there. I have had some setups that would occasionally create startlingly convincing effects of sounds really being produced in the room. This would really make my heart skip a beat if it was a sound that I could believe really might be happening in the room. I know for sure nobody's actually with me playing a violin or trumpet. On one recording there's an intro with some guy laughing the background just like my friend laughs. I just about fell out fell out my chair when I first heard that. How did Don get in my house??

 

[Elliot G.]

Because "do you feel like you are at a live event" is a broader, more holistic question than the narrow sensation or attribute I am raising in the opening post.

My words are a "time machine" can the system take you to different places around the world and produce or attempt to produce that event. Then you have something special. Most recordings cant do that they werent recorded to do that and so IMO this is where the wild diverse opinions come from. Can the system show you the "sound" from Red Rocks versus MSG or Carnegie or Royal Albert Hall? Is that sound on the recordings?

This forum spends so much time on differing opinions yet very little on How to listen and the difference betweeen hearing and listening.
I recently listened to a very expensive system in someones home. His priorities of what he is looking for are vastly different than mine.
He listens to mostly if not all recordings, don't believe he has much live listening experience.
Large scale dynamics and power are his first thing he wants. Not mine.
I want to get lost in the music. I want to hear the subtle and the not subtle but the scale of size and dynamics are important. Nuance and low level dynamics are what we hear all the time. Large scale dynamics only in certain occasions. We all hear voice evey day, in so many different inflections and levels with assorted backgrounds. I always want to start small and work up. My friend is quite the oppsoite and his musical taste follows suit.
There is no live for his listening. For me its always simple first, get the sound of the voice, a violin , a piano and an acoustic guitar right.
Instruments and vocals are live and breath, they are not two dimensions, they are not oly soft and loud there is a huge scale in between.

Argueing with different context and certainly different experience levels has become to me boring. There is no one thing but until one can look and examine what they want the rest is just SOS.

 

[Tim Link]

My words are a "time machine" can the system take you to different places around the world and produce or attempt to produce that event. Then you have something special. Most recordings cant do that they werent recorded to do that and so IMO this is where the wild diverse opinions come from. Can the system show you the "sound" from Red Rocks versus MSG or Carnegie or Royal Albert Hall? Is that sound on the recordings?

This forum spends so much time on differing opinions yet very little on How to listen and the difference betweeen hearing and listening.
I recently listened to a very expensive system in someones home. His priorities of what he is looking for are vastly different than mine.
He listens to mostly if not all recordings, don't believe he has much live listening experience.
Large scale dynamics and power are his first thing he wants. Not mine.
I want to get lost in the music. I want to hear the subtle and the not subtle but the scale of size and dynamics are important. Nuance and low level dynamics are what we hear all the time. Large scale dynamics only in certain occasions. We all hear voice evey day, in so many different inflections and levels with assorted backgrounds. I always want to start small and work up. My friend is quite the oppsoite and his musical taste follows suit.
There is no live for his listening. For me its always simple first, get the sound of the voice, a violin , a piano and an acoustic guitar right.
Instruments and vocals are live and breath, they are not two dimensions, they are not oly soft and loud there is a huge scale in between.

Argueing with different context and certainly different experience levels has become to me boring. There is no one thing but until one can look and examine what they want the rest is just SOS.

The skill of listening can make it so you don't need much in the way of high end equipment to get transported through time and space by a recording. In some ways, lower fidelity playback can give the mind more room. It's helpful if you are very familiar with what live music sounds like. In that case you can either let your imagination fill in what's missing, or expertly critique what's wrong with the sound, or possibly do both at the same time. One of the most compelling things I've felt listening to live music recently is the direct personal interaction with the musicians, that sense of togetherness. No recording can do that. At best you can feel like a spy, sneaking in unnoticed.

 

[Rexp]

Because "do you feel like you are at a live event" is a broader, more holistic question than the narrow sensation or attribute I am raising in the opening post.

Yes, what you are referring to is a specific attribute that highly resolving systems display when fed a recording that has solid 3D imaging embedded into it. Most audiophiles haven't actually experienced this.

 

[Rexp]

Btw you don't have to be an audiophile to hear this attribute. When I had a hifi shop, Patti Boyd was a neighbour and popped in to get her dvd player fixed, I said, while you're here have a listen to this system (atc 20t's, Boulder 500 amp). Played Son of a Preacher Man. She was gobsmacked, and said you can actually see Dusty singing (who she knew personally). Alas she didn't buy and Eric never came in the shop.

 

[tima]

Maybe we are not understanding each other.

When you are in an actual concert hall listening to a performance you could, although it would be rude, stand up during the middle of the performance and walk up to the stage, and walk up onto the stage and stand next to the first violin player.

So how can it be that when you are sitting there in the concert hall you have not had such a perception that you could physically do this?

This is a typical interrogation whose point I do not understand.

You are asking if it has occured to me while listening to a concert that I could somehow get on the stage and stand next to the orchestra. Physically it may be possible but I don't know why such a thought would occur to me. I go to hear the performance, not to disrupt it

When listening to my system it is not a goal to have that sort of perception. It would be a distraction while listening to music on my stereo.

edit: In my opinion I'll call what you describe as "audiophile listening".

 

[Amir]

This is a typical interrogation whose point I do not understand.

You are asking if it has occured to me while listening to a concert that I could somehow get on the stage and stand next to the orchestra. Physically it may be possible but I don't know why such a thought would occur to me. I go to hear the performance, not to disrupt it

When listening to my system it is not a goal to have that sort of perception. It would be a distraction while listening to music on my stereo.

edit: In my opinion I'll call what you describe as "audiophile listening".

Tima
The relation between "get on the stage" and musicality is a complex subject so I do not want to disagree about the importance of "get on the stage".
Even mid level properly setup full range systems can give you that feeling if you have good acoustics.

I do not think feeling of "get on the stage" is allways against musicality but I doubt if it is very important for our enjoyment.
First impression of "get on the stage" is very attractive for audiophiles but in the end I do not think it is very important for long listening sessions.
Natural harmonic/Tone , Micro dynamics are more important to me for true Emotional reaction.

 

[Alrainbow]

From Ron's post it is a system, not recording attribute.

No I disagree

 

[Alrainbow]

This is a typical interrogation whose point I do not understand.

You are asking if it has occured to me while listening to a concert that I could somehow get on the stage and stand next to the orchestra. Physically it may be possible but I don't know why such a thought would occur to me. I go to hear the performance, not to disrupt it

When listening to my system it is not a goal to have that sort of perception. It would be a distraction while listening to music on my stereo.

edit: In my opinion I'll call what you describe as "audiophile listening".

I
Might be wrong in his Understanding his question
but to me pinpointing, staging , bight and depth is a must to me. live many times seems to have this best feeling
years back disliked live recordings for not always having the sound quality of studio
The imaging , attack and air pits me there.
I can’t imagine a live event I am at wound or has had this type of experience much less a PA sound

 

[Alrainbow]

Here is a curve ball a well
Done surround setup does live very well even if in 2 channel mode. to be surrounded by the music is close to what live is. I know it it’s not an absolute perfect setup but man it’s very cool
To enjoy

 

[PeterA]

We discuss here many sonic attributes, such as dynamics and soundstaging and pinpoint imaging and tonality and transparency and resolution, etc.

When listening to a high-end audio system is the sensation of almost being able to walk up onto the stage of the music playback you are listening to a sonic attribute? Is this an artificial "hi-fi attribute"? Or is this a natural and organic goal of any good music playback system?

Is the feeling of almost being able to walk into the musical soundfield in front of you where the musicians are "playing" something you think about in your system?

Have you heard this effect on some systems but not on other systems?

What kinds of components or kinds of systems create this effect?

This thread reminds me of the "Suspension of Disbelief" thread, in the sense that it attempts to define and discuss a uniquely audiophile approach to music listening.

Q1: When listening to a high-end audio system is the sensation of almost being able to walk up onto the stage of the music playback you are listening to a sonic attribute?
My Answer 1: Yes, I think it is. I find your phrasing here to be quite awkward. What is the "stage of the music playback"? Is this not simply the virtual image of the recorded musicians performing in a space in front of the listener? Why not just say the image in front of the listener? Can a sensation (feeling) of a physical act (almost walking around) be a sonic attribute? I do not really understand the question, but in the sense that we are sitting and listening to sounds, I suppose any sensation resulting from act of listening is "sonic" in nature.

Q2: Is this an artificial "hi-fi attribute"?
MA2: I think it is real in the sense that we can experience it from our systems, but I do not have this sense when listening to live music. The visual aspect of experiencing a live performance combined with what we hear is what allows us to imagine it later in the setting our our listening rooms. With eyes shut in the concert hall, I do not get this sense of dimensional imagery around individual performers. "hi-fi" is short for high fidelity, that is to the recording (or performance). 3D imagery, as I call it thinking this is what you are really describing, is an attribute of stereo reproduction. It is not artificial, because we can sense it when listening to some stereo systems. That does not mean it is something we experience when listening to the sound of live music with eyes shut. However, with eyes open, we see dimension and add that information to what we hear and combine the two. The experience of listening to live music is holistic in that sense. Sometimes, sensing images and spatial relationships between the musicians presented through a system in our rooms is more like the experience of listening to live music. It can make listening to reproduced music seem more convincing.

Q3: Or is this a natural and organic goal of any good music playback system?
MA3: No. How is a goal "natural and organic"? I do not see how one can suggest that something is a goal of any good music playback system. The system does not have a goal. Designers of the gear have goals, and the owner through his selection of specific gear and specific set up decisions has goals. And the goals are not universal. They are individual. Each listener has his own goals, sometimes they are similar or the same as other listener's goals, but certainly not always. The proof is in how different various systems sound.

Q4: Is the feeling of almost being able to walk into the musical soundfield in front of you where the musicians are "playing" something you think about in your system?
MA4: I do not think about it as a goal, or when listening to my system. I do not want to walk into the musical soundfield in front of me, not in my listening room, and not in the concert hall. If I experience strong images of the musicians in front of me as presented by my system when listening to it, it reminds me more of the live music experience I have when hearing and seeing musicians perform live. That is my goal. Realistic scale is also important to achieve an experience similar to listening live.

Q5: Have you heard this effect on some systems but not on other systems?
MA5: Yes

Q6: What kinds of components or kinds of systems create this effect?
MA6: All sorts of components and kinds of systems can. The real challenge to me seems to be how realistic is the listening experience. Some systems can create pinpoint imaging with strong outlines, lots of contrast and "space", but sound unnatural. Audiophile cables, power boxes, certain set up approaches, suffer from this. So do many components. For me, the ones that are able to present the music in a way that reminds me of what I experience when listening to live music are able to present believable images and scale. These components and systems sound natural, like the real thing. They need to be extremely dynamic and have realistic/convincing/believable timbre and a sense of presence. And they have to be resolving. For me, that means a highly efficient system with low distortion, and none of the audiophile sonic attributes like black backgrounds, pinpoint images, outlines.

When we hear real musicians performing somewhere, we see and hear them. We feel the energy in the space. We use multiple sense to experience the performance. When we go back home to listen to our systems present a recording of a past performance, we use mostly our ears. We do not have the help of any visuals. We can feel energy or the lack of it. When I listen to live music, my mind does all sorts of things to experience the performance holistically. It is free to shift between different aspects of the experience. I try to replicate this freedom when listening to my system at home. The virtual imaging and presentation of energy in the room, if done naturally and not enhanced, do contribute to making the experience more realistic. For me it is about a system that does not distract from the experience of listening to the music.

When listening to my system, I do not want to think about "walking up on stage".

 

[Ron Resnick]

This thread . . . attempts to define and discuss a uniquely audiophile approach to music listening.

Thank you very much, Peter, for your thoughtful and detailed post about the opening topic.

Unfortunately, I think our respective thought processes are so far apart that we are not going to make much progress in achieving mutual understanding here.

Articulating a "uniquely audiophile approach to music listening" was not remotely in my mind when thinking about this topics. In fact, in my mind, I, personally, was not thinking audiophile sensibility or hi-fi attribute at all.

I think MikeL, Al and others instantly and intuitively understood what I was talking about here.

I do not have this sense when listening to live music.

Tim made the same point, and I explained this in my reply to him as best I can.

I do not see how one can suggest that something is a goal of any good music playback system. The system does not have a goal.

I am baffled by this comment, because if we do not have a goal for our music playback systems, then what are we doing in this hobby? I think my matrix of "objectives of high-end audio" suggests goals.

I thought you set the "goal" of your system to be to achieve "natural" sound.

Is the feeling of almost being able to walk into the musical soundfield in front of you where the musicians are "playing" something you think about in your system?
MA4: I do not think about it as a goal, or when listening to my system. I do not want to walk into the musical soundfield in front of me, not in my listening room, and not in the concert hall.

The opening post suggests an abstract concept, not a physical reality.

What kinds of components or kinds of systems create this effect?
MA6: All sorts of components and kinds of systems can.

My personal answer to this question would be individual components and systems which are best able to preserve the integrity of phase information and which can achieve correct velocity of propagation are best able to achieve suspension of disbelief on this particular abstract point (assuming the ambient information is enclosed on the recording).

When listening to my system, I do not want to think about "walking up on stage".

It is not a concept one needs to be actively distracted by. To me the sensation described merely contributes to suspension of disbelief.

 

[bonzo75]

I personally see natural sound, real sound or creating a live event sound, as walking up on stage. Therefore I think the concept of a separate walking up on on stage that does not include creating a live event is silly. Someone has to show me where the walking up on stage exists without creating a natural sound live event feel. If it does not exist devoid of that, it is pointless to have it as a separate topic

 

[PeterA]

Thank you very much, Peter, for your thoughtful and detailed post about the opening topic.



I thought you set the "goal" of your system is to achieve "natural" sound.

The system is a tool. It’s a bunch of inanimate boxes and wires. As such, it cannot have a goal. The listener has a goal, presumably. Some do not.

My goal was to select specific components and set them up in a specific way so that I achieve a listening experience in my living room similar to that which I experience in the concert hall. The result is natural sound.

The concept, idea, or talking point, of being able to walk up on stage in and around and among the musicians is not a part of that goal.

 

[bonzo75]

The concept, idea, or talking point, of being able to walk up on stage in and around and among the musicians is not a part of that goal.

It’s one of the silliest things I have read and these days there Is a lot of competition.

 

[Kingrex]

The system is a tool. It’s a bunch of inanimate boxes and wires. As such it cannot have a goal.

The person who made the gear had a goal.

 

[Alrainbow]

I personally see natural sound, real sound or creating a live event sound, as walking up on stage. Therefore I think the concept of a separate walking up on on stage that does not include creating a live event is silly. Someone has to show me where the walking up on stage exists without creating a natural sound live event feel. If it does not exist devoid of that, it is pointless to have it as a separate topic

Kedar what Ron means and I certainly do is this.
it’s not a 3d reality event in walking up on the stage
it’s us in our chair hearing and there for imaging in our heads
you go to live concerts surely you know where some are playing from
But also what you like is almost mono where I dislike completely
as for timar what he likes is far from me
and I think a system needs to scale to hear positions if not we
Loose low level details and it only jumps when loud

 

[Alrainbow]

Carnegie hall the weavers is a good example of well done staging In a 3d sound
You can see where they are who is more upfront
More Elevated even
Where is the man gently stoping in the stage. if you don’t hear this type of imaging well small speakers or not set up well systems then your missing out